Chach Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 20 hours ago, markjazzbassist said: I don’t know why you feel you need to constantly come on here and lecture us all As to why the far right and far left are wrong and your moderate and centrists beliefs are correct. As far as I "lecture you" it's just pointing out that your subjective reality is not necessarily an accurate world view and that you should open your mind to actually engaging with ideas your stomach finds uncomfortable. What you should be worried about is that you don't care if ideologues who share your world view smear political candidates in their own party. That's about as illiberal and anti intellectual as you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 21 hours ago, Palfy said: But people’s opinions are in the most influenced by what they hear and read in the media, you yourself have posted articles that you think are relevant to your beliefs and political persuasions, without doing any research to see if it’s true or fake, so don’t try and tell me that the media have no influence on the people they preach to, because that would be totally naive. Haha I have never done that, I am careful about what I share and I generally form my opinions from books I have read/ public intellectuals I have listened to and things I have observed in my life. I'm only interested in the truth and what is good for humanity and currently as this thread goes that is the replacement of Donald Trump with an adult who can provide some leadership in what is likely one of the most challenging periods modern humans have faced, so actually living through the election and their first term and being able to win a second term is a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Chach said: As far as I "lecture you" it's just pointing out that your subjective reality is not necessarily an accurate world view and that you should open your mind to actually engaging with ideas your stomach finds uncomfortable. What you should be worried about is that you don't care if ideologues who share your world view smear political candidates in their own party. That's about as illiberal and anti intellectual as you can get. Yeah the holier than thou bit. No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better. I don’t care about your political affiliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Chach said: Haha I have never done that, I am careful about what I share and I generally form my opinions from books I have read/ public intellectuals I have listened to and things I have observed in my life. I'm only interested in the truth and what is good for humanity and currently as this thread goes that is the replacement of Donald Trump with an adult who can provide some leadership in what is likely one of the most challenging periods modern humans have faced, so actually living through the election and their first term and being able to win a second term is a priority. Well try and be more careful about what you share in the future, because you’re I’m better read and more of an intellectual than most doesn’t resonate with many on here, you’re opinion is just that you’re opinion. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 10 hours ago, markjazzbassist said: Yeah the holier than thou bit. No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better. I don’t care about your political affiliation. No Mark, you are not interesting in debating which is why you pretty much attempt to hound out anyone with a contrarian view to yours with ad hominem attacks on their style and equivocation on any argument they raise that challenges your position. If a conservative dares raise their head then the implications of stupidity, racism come out and the standard circle jerk ensues. With regards to the bolded, again that is entirely a figment of your imagination in response to being disagreed with, don't take it out on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 15, 2020 Report Share Posted February 15, 2020 10 hours ago, Palfy said: Well try and be more careful about what you share in the future, because you’re I’m better read and more of an intellectual than most doesn’t resonate with many on here, you’re opinion is just that you’re opinion. It's a political thread on an internet forum Palfy, I'm not going to moderate myself because some people can't handle a robust discussion. PS I am not opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 16, 2020 Report Share Posted February 16, 2020 33 minutes ago, Chach said: It's a political thread on an internet forum Palfy, I'm not going to moderate myself because some people can't handle a robust discussion. PS I am not opinion Your right mate Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 17, 2020 Report Share Posted February 17, 2020 On 15/02/2020 at 13:35, markjazzbassist said: Yeah the holier than thou bit. No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better. I don’t care about your political affiliation. Chach has always been a tricky one to work out, and I mean that with respect. I don’t often agree with him but can’t fault his debating skills for the most part, depends how sarcastic a tone I sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 I've seen some powerful takedowns through the years, but this has to be one of the most powerful - and the target of her attack was stood right beside her. Wow! Palfy and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 @Cornish Steve all the debate recaps i read said that warren's ship is sinking so fast that she just went into attack mode all night. she didn't have a point to it, she just attacked everyone. basically lashing out as the door is closing on her campaign. i didn't watch it FWIW, i'm a bernie guy. Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: @Cornish Steve all the debate recaps i read said that warren's ship is sinking so fast that she just went into attack mode all night. she didn't have a point to it, she just attacked everyone. basically lashing out as the door is closing on her campaign. i didn't watch it FWIW, i'm a bernie guy. Trump is loving this. It was attacks on each other the whole night between all the candidates. Democrats are looking just as bad as Republicans last go around. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 Just now, Sibdane said: Trump is loving this. It was attacks on each other the whole night between all the candidates. Democrats are looking just as bad as Republicans last go around. playing devil's advocate, is there another way to do a debate? how can they articulate their differences and highlight their strengths without it coming off as an attack? Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: playing devil's advocate, is there another way to do a debate? how can they articulate their differences and highlight their strengths without it coming off as an attack? There will always be some sort of attacks but a lot of them got personal rather than focus on policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 28 minutes ago, Sibdane said: There will always be some sort of attacks but a lot of them got personal rather than focus on policy. ah gotcha. yeah i feel the primary debates always benefit the incumbent, so it's kinda a necessary evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51580160 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Cornish Steve said: I've seen some powerful takedowns through the years, but this has to be one of the most powerful - and the target of her attack was stood right beside her. Wow! I agree but boy wasn’t she right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 The problem with world politics at the moment is that in all the leading countries in the world, there are no outstanding politicians of either gender (or 100). The problem for voters is: 'who is the least worst candidate'. Trump and Hilary is the best example. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 14 hours ago, Sibdane said: Trump is loving this. It was attacks on each other the whole night between all the candidates. Democrats are looking just as bad as Republicans last go around. I beg to differ. The genius of debates is that candidates are put through the mill. Their strengths, their weaknesses, their experience or lack of it - all are revealed and probed and challenged. Nothing is likely to come to light once a party chooses its candidate that didn't come to light during debates and attacks like this. If something negative does come to light and the candidate wins anyway, it means the electorate accepts it and has moved on. If this didn't happen, the president would find dirt and use it - as he tried to do with Joe Biden. So, while it looks messy, I'd say the process is a good one: It filters out those without stamina and allows us to make more educated decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 9 hours ago, Cornish Steve said: I beg to differ. The genius of debates is that candidates are put through the mill. Their strengths, their weaknesses, their experience or lack of it - all are revealed and probed and challenged. Nothing is likely to come to light once a party chooses its candidate that didn't come to light during debates and attacks like this. If something negative does come to light and the candidate wins anyway, it means the electorate accepts it and has moved on. If this didn't happen, the president would find dirt and use it - as he tried to do with Joe Biden. So, while it looks messy, I'd say the process is a good one: It filters out those without stamina and allows us to make more educated decisions. Yes, and it helped voters make an "educated decision" in picking Trump as a candidate last go around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 19 hours ago, johnh said: The problem with world politics at the moment is that in all the leading countries in the world, there are no outstanding politicians of either gender (or 100). The problem for voters is: 'who is the least worst candidate'. Trump and Hilary is the best example. Very true that’s why Boris got in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 53 minutes ago, Palfy said: Very true that’s why Boris got in. Yes, I agree. I nearly posted 'Trump & Hilary and Johnson and Corbyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, johnh said: Yes, I agree. I nearly posted 'Trump & Hilary and Johnson and Corbyn. Thing is John I can’t see it changing any time soon if ever, the political world is a very different place from 35 plus years ago, it’s become a popularity contest without substance, they think there celebrities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-51582020/what-was-that-all-about-donald-trump-mocks-oscars-winner-parasite He really is the lowest of the lowest "trailer trash" (I'm insulting many of them by the comparison probably) except for the fact he has money in the bank; how low can he go before even some of his supporters start to wonder? Pure unadulterated racism from the "leader of the free world". Sickening. Palfy, Sibdane, markjazzbassist and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Sibdane said: Yes, and it helped voters make an "educated decision" in picking Trump as a candidate last go around. True, but that was because the Democrats fixed their race the last time to guarantee a truly awful candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 The parallels between Sanders and Corbyn are uncanny (even down to how their supporters hound people on social media who dare question the leader). If he wins the nomination, my guess is Trump is set for another 4 years because, just like in the UK, the majority will not choose to go with the revolutionary, no matter how much they disdain Trump. Seems the UK is really ahead of the curve. They got there first with Brexit (Trump) and Corbyn (Sanders). Democrats should take note of this and take away the approriate lessons (go for electability, not purity). Fwiw, I think Klobuchar would stand the best chance of beating Trump. Chach, Matt and Sibdane 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 3 hours ago, holystove said: The parallels between Sanders and Corbyn are uncanny (even down to how their supporters hound people on social media who dare question the leader). If he wins the nomination, my guess is Trump is set for another 4 years because, just like in the UK, the majority will not choose to go with the revolutionary, no matter how much they disdain Trump. Seems the UK is really ahead of the curve. They got there first with Brexit (Trump) and Corbyn (Sanders). Democrats should take note of this and take away the approriate lessons (go for electability, not purity). Fwiw, I think Klobuchar would stand the best chance of beating Trump. Exactly this. (except Klobuchar, know nothing about him!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, johnh said: Democrats should take note of this and take away the approriate lessons (go for electability, not purity). So what you're saying is that people should not stand for office based on their principles and what they believe to be right, they should just say and do what the electorate (for which read tabloid press) want? Might as well just make Rupert Murdoch PM and do away with the election palaver. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 49 minutes ago, MikeO said: So what you're saying is that people should not stand for office based on their principles and what they believe to be right, they should just say and do what the electorate (for which read tabloid press) want? Might as well just make Rupert Murdoch PM and do away with the election palaver. The above is an extract from Holystove's post, though I happen to agree with it. The issue is all about winning an election. If you lose, you can spend 5 years thinking about your principles. As most manifesto's are fiction anyway, you still have 5 years to feed your principles in if you win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, johnh said: The above is an extract from Holystove's post, though I happen to agree with it. The issue is all about winning an election. If you lose, you can spend 5 years thinking about your principles. As most manifesto's are fiction anyway, you still have 5 years to feed your principles in if you win. So you're condoning lying to get into office (I know they do it anyway)? Interesting. I'd rather they didn't personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, MikeO said: So you're condoning lying to get into office (I know they do it anyway)? Interesting. I'd rather they didn't personally. Not sure I have ever come across anyone who has stood based on their principles and what they believe to be right. Probably Michael Foot comes closest. Incidentally, how did holystove answer the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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