Brexit...

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63627801

Shocker. 

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

That's why Labour need to run with taking us back in the union, the percentage wanting to return will get bigger and bigger in the next two years, we just need a party to have to give us the vehicle to return. 

[MikeO]

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That's why Labour need to run with taking us back in the union, the percentage wanting to return will get bigger and bigger in the next two years, we just need a party to have to give us the vehicle to return. 

Is there any guarantee they'd take us back?

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Is there any guarantee they'd take us back?

No guarantee, but if they run their campaign with their number one pledge to hold a referendum to return, and they won the election with that at the top of their manifesto, then it would destroy them as a party possibly for ever they reneged on such a commitment. 

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

No guarantee, but if they run their campaign with their number one pledge to hold a referendum to return, and they won the election with that at the top of their manifesto, then it would destroy them as a party possibly for ever they reneged on such a commitment. 

I meant is there any guarantee that the EU would take us back as a country, or would they tell us to fuck off and cash in on all the "opportunites" we've created for ourselves?

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I meant is there any guarantee that the EU would take us back as a country, or would they tell us to fuck off and cash in on all the "opportunites" we've created for ourselves?

I would like to think they would, we would meet every requirement necessary to become a member again. 

[Matt]

I never thought anything but want us to be part of the EU but it absolutely should not be a political tool.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

I never thought anything but want us to be part of the EU but it absolutely should not be a political tool.

Unfortunately I can't see it being any other way, it was used as a political tool that led to us leaving, so unless one party promotes a referendum on a return or still remain out vote, how else can we return. There could be a new party formed who's main objective was a return to the EU, but like the Greens who stand for saving the planet and the future of generations, there rise as never materialised and yet they stand for the most important thing in politics saving the planet, which sadly tells me if we ever wish to return we need a mainstream party, and preferably Labour to promise to give us that referendum in their first term if they were to be voted into government. 

[MikeO]

9 hours ago, Palfy said:

Unfortunately I can't see it being any other way, it was used as a political tool that led to us leaving, so unless one party promotes a referendum on a return or still remain out vote, how else can we return. There could be a new party formed who's main objective was a return to the EU, but like the Greens who stand for saving the planet and the future of generations, there rise as never materialised and yet they stand for the most important thing in politics saving the planet, which sadly tells me if we ever wish to return we need a mainstream party, and preferably Labour to promise to give us that referendum in their first term if they were to be voted into government. 

https://therejoineuparty.com/

[Bailey]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63941509

[Matt]

https://youtu.be/VNFIllQwpm8

 

[Palfy]

Fuck off major if we have any military disputes with China we will simply attack them with nuclear weapons, that seems to be the acceptable solution. 

[MikeO]

Astonishing, Sunak saying that only NI will be in the incredible (unbelievably special/unique)position of having free access to both UK and EU markets, good for them....but didn't England, Scotland and Wales have that as well quite recently? If it's so good why did he campaign to give it up? Irony bypass.

 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think that Brexit is about much more than free trade. In fact, as many brexit advocates have stated many times, if the EU had remained the free trade association that we joined in 1973, we might have remained ‘in.’

But once it started trying to become the United States of Europe it stepped outside the mandate on which it was sold to the UK public and we didn’t, and don’t’ wish to become a vassal state of the United States of Europe.

Doesn't change the fact that Sunak is bigging up the amazing opportunity of being part of the EU market as a massive plus, which we all had prior to this half-baked scheme. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

Precisely the point that at least 17.4 million people made. The free trade association was fine but as soon as you put us in a situation where we have to give up sovereignty to keep free trade then you can stick your free trade where the sun doesn’t shine.

 

Also, a european trade association made sense in 1973. Today’s world is very different and whilst desirable, is certainly not essential and is certainly not worth giving up our sovereignty for - that is the argument whch people who are anti brexit just do not want to have as they will never win it.

Which sovereignty did we give up again? Or gain? 

I'll wait for the complete lack of either to be pulled out of thin air. 

Still avoiding the irony I see

 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

We have had this discussion a million times before and I’m not going to waste my time going over it again. Suffice to say that at least 17.4 million people can see the point that you either can’t or won’t.

So no evidence still? Gotchya 

It is a waste of time debating fiction and lies, I'll agree with you there. This evening is going bad enough without this too

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, you have got nothing. The EU wants UK and other current member states to give up their sovereignty. Not my words but those of none other than Verhofstadt.

Triple gotcha. Game over. You lost.

https://www.google.com/search?q=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&ei=6bf_Y-zgC4We4-EPnsOI4AU&oq=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQgAEKIEOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABAeEKIEOgQIHhAKOgQIIRAKSgQIQRgAUJwcWIt2YIKBAWgBcAB4AIABygGIAdoLkgEGMTkuMC4xmAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e23b562,vid:wCVw0nWgHog

1 man is not the EU. So yeah, you've got nothing. Gnight

[MikeO]

5 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, you have got nothing. The EU wants UK and other current member states to give up their sovereignty. Not my words but those of none other than Verhofstadt.

Triple gotcha. Game over. You lost.

https://www.google.com/search?q=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&ei=6bf_Y-zgC4We4-EPnsOI4AU&oq=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQgAEKIEOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABAeEKIEOgQIHhAKOgQIIRAKSgQIQRgAUJwcWIt2YIKBAWgBcAB4AIABygGIAdoLkgEGMTkuMC4xmAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e23b562,vid:wCVw0nWgHog

And he's in charge of what exactly? One man's opinion doesn't define the EU.

[Matt]

6 minutes ago, RPG said:

Matt, you can't continue ignoring and trying to discredit opinions that do not fit your personal beliefs and agenda mate. The various issues that you refuse to acknowledge, including, inter alia, sovereignty, are real issues that were, are and remain important to the people who voted for brexit. If we could have a free trade agreement with EU without being part of a United States of Europe, then fine. But we can't so we have to choose. We made the choice in 2016 and are out. That is the simple fact that people can choose to accept or not. But not accepting it won't change anything and just risks making people bitter.

I've got exactly what I want, thanks.

Gnight.

I asked for evidence, you trotted out an out of context remark. I've not ignored it, I looked up the whole piece and even then still see it as 1 guy making a statement which could just as easily be used for NATO, or any other international organisation. Provide actual evidence. Please. I've been begging for years, and I'm still waiting. 

Sovereignty is a buzzword thrown around, with no definition. I asked you and have asked you over and over what we lost and gained. Much like the Brexit plan, there's nothing to it. Just a word, an idea, but no idea how to achieve it or to justify it. 

You got what you want? Bully for you old boy. I lost my entire way of living after being refused by the government to have a vote in the referendum, as did many, many thousands of expats, the same government and parliament that lied, cheated and stole to get what they wanted without actually knowing what that was. I lost my freedom of movement and subsequently a job in Austria.

So apologies for insisting on actual evidence and plans over and over even though I know they don't exist. If that's bitter, wanting actual answers rather than clips or buzzword, then colour me lemon. I think it's more not letting a bunch of lying scumbag millionaires getting away with things without repercussions, the same people who are now putting part of the UK back into the EU (to all intents and purposes).

[Palfy]

The proof is clear now from a financial side that leaving the EU has been a complete disaster, Brexiteers were told by Boris that there would be no costs they needed us much more than we needed them, it was an oven ready deal, we were going to save 360 million a week to plough into NHS, how many of those 17.4 million voted out just on those lies. Then the little Britain element were fed the lies of we will take control of our borders, we will not give up our sovereignty, now our country's borders are more open then ever from people outside of the EU, the amount of South Americans I encounter on my visits to where we have contracts is now far more than I ever experienced of EU nationals when we were in the EU, and these are low skilled South Americans mainly from Brazil, they are the element on the skills base that those fighting for Brexit said wouldn't be allowed in the country, at least when in the EU the low skilled work force that was arriving from other EU countries could be vetted on a database that gave you some history of that person, not so with the South Americans we have no clue of their past which is dangerous to say the least. On the case of Sovereignty that is now the only thing left the hardened Brexiteers have left in their arsenal to say they made the right decision to vote leave, everything else they used to vote leave on, the facts and the evidence because they are being lived through prove they were wrong and the remainers right, except Sovereignty because there is no true evidence for or against, so Brexiteers use hear say in their evidence as fact that Sovereignty was an issue and they saved our Sovereignty. EU law was agreed to by all member states, any article in the EU laws that any member didn't agree with they had the power of a veto to stop that being ratified and becoming EU law, so whilst in the EU we always had the power to veto anything that threatened our Sovereignty. We only have as any source of evidence regarding Sovereignty to look at the existing 27 members to see if they have lost their Sovereignty and the answer is as yet no they haven't, and Poland being good evidence that you can use your veto if you feel that something isn't right for your country, which they did and stood firm on as Britain has on many occasions, so you would only in my opinion lose your sovereignty if you agreed to hand over your Sovereignty. 
I firmly believe Brexit has been a complete failure and I cannot find one factually proven benefit to our country since we left, and trust me I have looked, and if anyone comes back at me with sovereignty I will say bollocks where is the evidence that we would have lost our sovereignty and democracy if we stayed in the EU. 

[Palfy]

46 minutes ago, RPG said:

One very obvious benefit is that we are freeing ourselves from being subject to EU rules that could be and would have been imposed on us as a vassal state of the United States of Europe. That is very important to people who know and appreciate the true meaning of freedom. I have no sympathy for the argument that it is better to be a comfortable slave than a poor free man. I find it a very selfish and short sighted way to view the situation as we have no right to give up the freedom of future generations, won for us by our previous generations. We are the custodians of that freedom. It is not ours to give away.

It may take time but the UK will offer the opportunity to be a comfortable free man and that is something that the EU would never have allowed.

It is not 'only sovereignty' as you described it. Sovereignty is very important and it embodies everything that a free UK stands for and which was being stripped away from us, one inch (sorry cm) at a time by the EU. It is not 'only' Sovereignty. Sovereignty is a very powerful quality and it is worth fighting for if necessary - just ask any Ukrainian. It makes me laugh that many people who are trying to decry the sovereignty argument are the first one's to support it when it comes to Ukraine maintaining their sovereignty. Russia is trying to strip sovereignty away by military means, the EU by political means but the intended outcome (minus the deaths) is the same.

The crux of the matter is that the UK is a democracy, whilst the USE is a Federation and has much less democracy and transparency than UK. The two political systems were never going to merge happily and remember that the EU (then known as the common market) was missold to the UK electorate as a pure free trade association amid assurances that there would never be any political union or loss of sovereignty. That was a lie. If it had remained a free trade association I am sure we would still be 'in' but political union with the rest of Europe is not what we signed up for and, as demonstrated in 2016, is not what we want.

Regarding trade figures; Covid-19 and Ukraine war is probably distorting matters considerably. It will, of course, take time to build new trading relationships, strengthen existing ones and expand our manufacturing base after EU decimated it. But it can and, I believe, will be done

Would you or I have got a vote on Von de Leyden as President of EU if we had voted remain?

Did I get a vote for Liz Truss or Rushi Sunak being Prime Minister. The deals that have been made with countries to try and bridge the cap of us leaving the EU don't even scratch the service of what we gave up, a deranged Liz Truss going round the world signing trade deals that were sailing this country down the river, and in particular it's farmers was frankly embarrassing yet the even more deranged Boris Johnson was hailing them as some great success. What happened to the oven ready deal all leavers were talking about, what happened to the deal with the USA that was going to change the fortunes of every man woman and child in this country, what happened to taking control of our borders so that no one could come here to work unless they had a skill that was needed, all rubbish and lies to pray on people into believing leave was right for them and the country. 
And to defend the decision to vote leave we will make it all about Sovereignty, like I said any EU laws that were made were agreed to by all members or they wouldn't be in existence, and to be fair to the EU they gave people more rights and protection and freedom than was ever experienced by any generation before, what was so bad about workers rights, what was so bad about governments working together on sharing information on terrorism, on returning criminals to the country they had committed crimes in, on giving people the freedom to work and travel freely in other EU countries. We weren't giving up our Sovereignty or democracy and they weren't being taken from us, you say generations before had fought for our freedom yes they did in 2 world wars started in Europe, if the EU was In existence in 1913 and 1939 those wars would not have happened. 
Russia's invasion of Ukraine bares no resemblance whatsoever with us being in the EU, and to try and make a case that a country that is fighting for its survival whilst having horrific war crimes committed against it is in someways comparable is in poor taste, and there are no similarities with what's happening Ukraine to us or any other country in the EU. In fact you have scored an own goal as to the strength and security that being in a union brings, if Ukraine was in NATO do you think Russia would have dared attack Ukraine knowing full well they would have been destroyed by the full force of NATO, I say not a chance in hell. 

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, MikeO said:

 

Funny but so true. 

[Palfy]

In 2019 the Tories pledged that they would cut net migration from 25,000, when figures are released shortly for last year they are expected to pass 700,000. For those that voted out because they believed that we would be financially better off, or we would ditch EU laws and rules, or we would take control back over our borders and cut migration. Are you now regretting your decision or did you vote out for none of the above, maybe you were persuaded because of the big red bus. But if it was for none of the above then please tell me why and if you think it has been successful and met your expectations that the country would be more successful outside of the EU. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I’m not regretting Brexit one iota. Easy for me to say as I don’t live in the UK and I do have sympathy for those who feel adversely affected by Brexit but I still maintain that, long term, we are, or will be, far better off (not just financially) by being out of EU.

There is no long term for Brexit ever becoming a success, every month that passes sees more Brexit policies and promises fall by the wayside, I honestly can’t find one positive or one promise from the Brexit campaign that has come close to being a reality, the reality is Brexit has been catastrophic failure. And long term future of success will be the United Kingdom returning to the EU.  The ready cooked deal has poisoned everyone including those who voted for it. 

[Matt]

On 20/05/2023 at 14:12, RPG said:

That’s your opinion which you seem very attached to and I fully respect your right and freedom to have. Mine is different. I supported Brexit because it freed us from EU control of our domestic policies and restored our Sovereignty - which I know is a dirty word and concept for some, but we have fought too many wars (winning most) to give away in peacetime what we fought so hard to hold onto in wartime at such a high price.

I remain very pro Europe but very anti EU.

Except it hasn't and won't any time soon according to the Conservatives.

https://youtube.com/shorts/702DwdrmAfk?feature=share

 

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, RPG said:

Patience Grasshopper. It’s a process not a light switch moment.

It's been 7 years. I could've made a candle from my earwax and burnt it down by now. 

Ignorance is bliss seems more accurate. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

These type of changes take decades. Things are happening but Rome wasn’t built in a day. The EU has spent over 40 years trapping us in its administrative prison. A controlled but inexorable exit from all Brussels interference is the way to go.

I can agree with the timeline part at least (whilst screwing the younger generations 1 step further than the old generations already have), not least because there's still no fucking plan and still no definition of what it actually means, even between Leave voters. 

 

 

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, RPG said:

Yes, those generations that fought and won two world wars to preserve and ensure the freedom of the next generations really shouldn’t have bothered, should they.

There is a saying (can’t remember it verbatim) which goes:

Hard times produce strong people. (1940/50s)

Strong people produce good times.(1960/70/80s)

Good times produce weak people. (1990/2000)

Weak people produce hard times. (2000 onwards)

Alternatively, I can recommend a google search for ‘The Tytler Cycle’

I am hoping that we are now back at the start of the cycle and Brexit is as good a place to start as any.

When most are now dead or regretting their decisions, whilst pushing the country into recession that sees their pensions suffer? 

I highly doubt many from WW1 voted, what with the Brexit vote being 98 years after the end of the war. 

Good a place a start? It's been 7 fucking years and there's still no idea what it means. When is this "start" going to happen?

I'm a child of the 80s by the way. I would not say the 70s and 80s up here were good times, not even close. Funny coincidence, we had the Conservatives in charge then too didn't we...