Hafnia Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Both league winning sides and top defenses in front of him. Paper of the cracks. Even bravo wuld look good on those sides because he wouldn't have to save much. He's hid behind a good defense his whole career. Forster on the other hand stands out regardless of who's in front at Celtic and soton. Same with Pickford at Sunderland. Hart as the stats I posted in his transfer thread show that he is no better than Tim Howard's best year. City have never had a top defence IMO - as Matt said, once you take Kompany out their defence name a defender who stands out? After Kompany its probably lescott who is the best they've had - and we had his best years... loads of money spend on the likes of mangala, otamendi etc but ultimately there has only been Kompany and Zabaletta who have had the quality to play for any top level team. I do not like Joe Hart - arrogant beyond belief.... but to say he's not a good keeper is a joke. Very rounded, tremendous shot stopper, vocal, agile, good command of his area. Edited January 19, 2017 by Hafnia Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) I don't like him but they did have good defenses back then. Kompanybwas healthy and they had good DCM Garett Barry ahem and others who were solid. Fullbacks were in their prime then zabaleta kolarov clichy sagna very good when in their prime. I don't like hart but I think if you drill down you start to understand why. Bit like how you lot tear Tim Howard about for being average yet we Americans love him. But if we are honest with ouselves we see he is average compared to neuer de gea navas lloris cech Leno tee stegen etc Edited January 19, 2017 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Joel Robles is in the same league as De Gea. The premier league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I don't like him but they did have good defenses back then. Kompanybwas healthy and they had good DCM Garett Barry ahem and others who were solid. Fullbacks were in their prime then zabaleta kolarov clichy sagna very good when in their prime. I don't like hart but I think if you drill down you start to understand why. Bit like how you lot tear Tim Howard about for being average yet we Americans love him. But if we are honest with ouselves we see he is average compared to neuer de gea navas lloris cech Leno tee stegen etc I'll give you those 2, the other 2 not. But look at the CBs in that time: Mangala, Otamendi, Demichelis.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'll give you those 2, the other 2 not. But look at the CBs in that time: Mangala, Otamendi, Demichelis.... That was pelligribi, Mancini had better ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 That was pelligribi, Mancini had better ones Can you name them? Not being flippant, I just couldn't think of anyone bar Lescott as Haf mentioned, maybe Richards but he was mostly at RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Can you name them? Not being flippant, I just couldn't think of anyone bar Lescott as Haf mentioned, maybe Richards but he was mostly at RB centre backs - Kompany, Lescott, Javi Garcia, Jerome Boatang, Stefan Savic DCM - Gareth Barry, James Milner, Yaya Toure, Nigel de Jong, Fernandinho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 centre backs - Kompany, Lescott, Javi Garcia, Jerome Boatang, Stefan Savic DCM - Gareth Barry, James Milner, Yaya Toure, Nigel de Jong, Fernandinho Exactly my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Exactly my point savic and boatang are 2 of the best CB in the world right now matt!! all started at man city. I guess you don't follow bundesliga or la liga? or the german national team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) savic and boatang are 2 of the best CB in the world right now matt!! all started at man city. I guess you don't follow bundesliga or la liga? or the german national team? right now, maybe. 4-6 years ago? Different story. I used to follow all the leagues when I travelled, no time anymore. Oh, and Boateng played 16 times in the league, so hardly a staple of the defence in his 1 season. Savic was shite at City during his 12 appearences, so again, no exactly a quality mainstay. Lasted a season before being sold for another car crash defender, Matija Nastasić edit: car crash is harsh, he was ok from what I remember, but far from fantastic Edited January 19, 2017 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 savic and boatang are 2 of the best CB in the world right now matt!! all started at man city. I guess you don't follow bundesliga or la liga? or the german national team? yet was absolute shite whilst at city, bit like when forlan was at united, just couldn't do the prem, moves on and becomes class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 right now, maybe. 4-6 years ago? Different story. I used to follow all the leagues when I travelled, no time anymore. Savic with atletico Madrid who defend all day with a parked bus, boatang was practically World cup MVP, dude is a beast for Bayern their best defender by a long shot. they were still good for city. regardless, 2 solid fullbacks, one solid centre back, one decent CB (you can have this one) and 2 great DCMS, I would consider that a very very good defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Savic with atletico Madrid who defend all day with a parked bus, boatang was practically World cup MVP, dude is a beast for Bayern their best defender by a long shot. they were still good for city. regardless, 2 solid fullbacks, one solid centre back, one decent CB (you can have this one) and 2 great DCMS, I would consider that a very very good defense. Sorry, was editing at the time: Boateng played 16 times in the league, so hardly a staple of the defence in his 1 season. Savic was shite at City during his 12 appearences, so again, no exactly a quality mainstay. Lasted a season before being sold for another car crash defender, Matija Nastasić edit: car crash is harsh, he was ok from what I remember, but far from fantastic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Sorry, was editing at the time: Boateng played 16 times in the league, so hardly a staple of the defence in his 1 season. Savic was shite at City during his 12 appearences, so again, no exactly a quality mainstay. Lasted a season before being sold for another car crash defender, Matija Nastasić edit: car crash is harsh, he was ok from what I remember, but far from fantastic ok but 1 defender doesn't make the whole defense. of the 6 men in front, 5 were class 1 was decent/ok. I would consider that a fantastic defense. not sure how you wouldn't classify it that way. Edited January 19, 2017 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 ok but 1 defender doesn't make the whole defense. of the 6 men in front, 5 were class 1 was decent/ok. I would consider that a fantastic defense. not sure how you wouldn't classify it that way. Because of a 2 simple reasons: 1) They've no all played together at the same time 2) only 1 of the CB was class then, 2 of them are only class now (but not at City where they played half a season each and were shit) 3 of the more recent CB have been utter shite and all of the CB have been bit part players for the most part (again Kompany excluded, at least early in his City career). Toure has been up and down like a yoyo ( ) and always better going forward than defending, Barry hasn't been there for 3-4 years, De Jong was an overrated animal, Fernando and Fernandihno are so hot n cold it's untrue. Look, I'm not saying Hart is world class, and I'm not just supporting him because he's English. I'm championing him because he has proven to be a very, very good / great GK through a transition period for City with an ever changing, and often unreliable back 6, in front of him, won titles and cups, won 4 out of the last 6 golden glove awards, is just now coming up to the usual peak age for a GK (30 in my opinion). How do you not want someone like that playing for Everton? Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 just realised I've repped myself, apparently one of the inner voices was impressed that post nyblue23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 agree to disagree, I've watched enough Joe hart and read enough cold hard facts to see he's not any better than tim howard. who by all English accounts was an above average keeper. not class, not great, but not bad. we should aim higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) agree to disagree, I've watched enough Joe hart and read enough cold hard facts to see he's not any better than tim howard. who by all English accounts was an above average keeper. not class, not great, but not bad. we should aim higher. I'll disagree there but to agree to agree to disagree Edited January 19, 2017 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 You could say Nuer and Buffon had it easy with some of the best defences in front of them but it doesn't take away from the saves they make Stick Foster in that Bayern side and they would concede more goals simple As Aaron said he's in the best of the rest category not top draw but not average aaron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Did he? Stats say he played 67 of a possible 76 league games in the 2 years Pelligrini was in charge. He was replaced for a month, but came back in and played the vast majority of the campaign Oh, and interesting fact after doing some looking up - Hart won 2 Golden Gloves under Mancini and 2 under Pelligrini, broke a club record for clean sheets in a season (29), broke a Champions League record for saves in a game against Barcelona (10) and has made penalty saves in CL games from the likes of Messi and Ibra. Yeah, bang fucking average Can't remember big Nev winning many golden gloves, he must have been shit. Tim Howard has the most in the world cup. One game and want actually that impressive. Any relevant stats to support Joe, as 3 professional managers wanting rid is pretty damning. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Can't remember big Nev winning many golden gloves, he must have been shit. Tim Howard has the most in the world cup. One game and want actually that impressive. Any relevant stats to support Joe, as 3 professional managers wanting rid is pretty damning. yet only one did get rid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 yet only one did get rid The other dropped him, and the one before already had a replacement ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Can't remember big Nev winning many golden gloves, he must have been shit. Tim Howard has the most in the world cup. One game and want actually that impressive. Any relevant stats to support Joe, as 3 professional managers wanting rid is pretty damning. who says big Nev was? And only one of the managers did and brought in Bravo. Awful arguments Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 City have a history of having a suspect defence, thought that was pretty common knowledge. The players mentioned were not deemed as good enough and only became prominent once they moved on. That doesn't make them good at city. Stats suggest that Hart is a very good keeper, not a shite one, so I'm not sure how that is being used against him. Funny how so many managers have been fooled, national and domestic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 who says big Nev was? And only one of the managers did and brought in Bravo. Awful arguments Pete Mancini would have got rid, and even had a player in line. At a minimum you must see he's not as good as Begovic. He's no where near the top keepers and I'd put Begovic in the bracket below the top. Hart being lower than Begovic. After that the decent ones like Adrian. Then Joe Hart in the bang average Stekelenburg level. nyblue23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 City have a history of having a suspect defence, thought that was pretty common knowledge. The players mentioned were not deemed as good enough and only became prominent once they moved on. That doesn't make them good at city. Stats suggest that Hart is a very good keeper, not a shite one, so I'm not sure how that is being used against him. Funny how so many managers have been fooled, national and domestic. City had 2 of the best defensive coaches? For his record of clean sheets you'd be looking at a keeper better than de gea if city had a shit defense. Just look at how much better our defense was/is with Barry, and he was surplus to City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Mancini would have got rid, and even had a player in line. At a minimum you must see he's not as good as Begovic. He's no where near the top keepers and I'd put Begovic in the bracket below the top. Hart being lower than Begovic. After that the decent ones like Adrian. Then Joe Hart in the bang average Stekelenburg level. hes a much better keeper than MOTD Begovic! Too many facts surrounding that comparison to go further. Mancini had time and money to replace him long term and never did. same as Pelligrini. Why didn't they? Because he's a bloody good keeper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 City had 2 of the best defensive coaches? For his record of clean sheets you'd be looking at a keeper better than de gea if city had a shit defense. Just look at how much better our defense was/is with Barry, and he was surplus to City. I am. We were dreadful last year with Barry. This year is different due to Gana and Koeman style, not Barry. And do coaches make the best players? They can bring out class, but can't create it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 hes a much better keeper than MOTD Begovic! Too many facts surrounding that comparison to go further. Mancini had time and money to replace him long term and never did. same as Pelligrini. Why didn't they? Because he's a bloody good keeper Simplist answer is often the correct one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'm out, my mind can't cope with this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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