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Referendum  

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I remember that being spelt out by the remain campaigners before the vote, and leave campaigners saying rubbish were get the deal we want because they need us more than we need them. 

Project fear turns out to be project fact. 

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The biggest fuck up to hit this country in my life time, let’s do the only sensible option left  to us No Brexit and remain   

Because digging our heels just to save face isn’t right when we know it’s all gone Pete tong

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7 hours ago, Palfy said:

The biggest fuck up to hit this country in my life time, let’s do the only sensible option left  to us No Brexit and remain   

Because digging our heels just to save face isn’t right when we know it’s all gone Pete tong

Unfortunately the referendum question was lacking in nuance, leave won and there is no option to remain. Remainers have to accept that.

Anyone who was worried about what deal was possible very likely voted remain, or didn't care.

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10 hours ago, Palfy said:

The biggest fuck up to hit this country in my life time, let’s do the only sensible option left  to us No Brexit and remain   

Because digging our heels just to save face isn’t right when we know it’s all gone Pete tong

what is the biggest fuck up to happen in your lifetime Palfy ?   I thought for a minute you were talking about brexit but as that has not happened yet I am struggling to follow what you mean.  yes I realise you are against brexit and this is the brexit thread  but as it has not happened yet  I am sadly a bit confused as to what has happened to make you say that?

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4 hours ago, rubecula said:

what is the biggest fuck up to happen in your lifetime Palfy ?   I thought for a minute you were talking about brexit but as that has not happened yet I am struggling to follow what you mean.  yes I realise you are against brexit and this is the brexit thread  but as it has not happened yet  I am sadly a bit confused as to what has happened to make you say that?

The fact that we were promised a lot of advantages and can’t even get the initial negotiations right? 

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8 hours ago, Chach said:

Unfortunately the referendum question was lacking in nuance, leave won and there is no option to remain. Remainers have to accept that.

I agree.  Brexit has to go through.   

To stop Brexit now would put the EU's most obstructionist Member-state back in the centre of the EU, but this time with an even more divided public opinion on Europe.   

The best way to defeat populists is to put their idiotic ideas into effect and watch them fail.   UK is very welcome to rejoin after March 29th 2019.

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10 hours ago, rubecula said:

what is the biggest fuck up to happen in your lifetime Palfy ?   I thought for a minute you were talking about brexit but as that has not happened yet I am struggling to follow what you mean.  yes I realise you are against brexit and this is the brexit thread  but as it has not happened yet  I am sadly a bit confused as to what has happened to make you say that?

I was thinking a head Rubes 😁 but your right it hasn’t been it hasn’t happened yet,  but mark my words mate it will happen and hopefully it’s good but I can’t see it. 

 

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I was thinking a head Rubes 😁 but your right it hasn’t been it hasn’t happened yet,  but mark my words mate it will happen and hopefully it’s good but I can’t see it. 

 

thanks mate   I was thinking I had missed something.

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39 minutes ago, rubecula said:

thanks mate   I was thinking I had missed something.

To be honest, I think a lot of people have with this whole, hypocritical debacle. 

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6 minutes ago, Matt said:

To be honest, I think a lot of people have with this whole, hypocritical debacle. 

it has been very divisive has it not?   but at least it allowed some of s to show how we really feel about some people that we thought of as friends.

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34 minutes ago, rubecula said:

it has been very divisive has it not?   but at least it allowed some of s to show how we really feel about some people that we thought of as friends.

That’s deep mate, it is emotional 😭 and I’ve said plenty of things that were wrong as you know, but some times the frustration and red mist take over and you fuck up. 

But what ever happens good or bad we will all still be here god willing and getting on with it and watching the Toffees rise to top🏆

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44 minutes ago, rubecula said:

it has been very divisive has it not?   but at least it allowed some of s to show how we really feel about some people that we thought of as friends.

And I will continue to think of friends as just that, regardless of their vote :) it was divisive because of false information and false promises, and that the population was grossly uneducated (seemingly the politicians too) to have been allowed this to have ever been up for discussion 

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the problem can be laid at the feet of lazy politicians imho 

on the leave side they were lazy to put the referendum out there in the first place/ on the remain side they were lazy in not wanting to do what they were voted into office for/  if you understand what I mean ...

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15 minutes ago, rubecula said:

the problem can be laid at the feet of lazy politicians imho 

on the leave side they were lazy to put the referendum out there in the first place/ on the remain side they were lazy in not wanting to do what they were voted into office for/  if you understand what I mean ...

No😂

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy, I thought the post that you posted 'no' against, was in Welsh.😁

 

 

 

😂😂😂 walked into that one, thanks John😫

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The Irish professor in Matt's video is completely correct, its all a completely pointless exercise. You can see by the lack of action since invoking Article 50 that the Govt had absolutely no intention of fully leaving the EU. They have made no attempt to prepare the infrastructure, they have had a couple of Brexit secretaries resign on, when reading through the lines, would appear to have had very little say on what was being negotiated. In fact, I wouldn't even fully blame the whole Govt, it would seem to be May and her inner circle who have been plowing a lone furrow with their own vision of what they believe Brexit to be which I would be fairly confident in assuming is nothing like this current deal, and also nothing like the SNP/Labour parties are also currently peddling.

I think it was mentioned earlier on in this thread that there is a case going through the Courts to determine whether A50 can be legally withdrawn without permission of the EU member states. Lets bloody hope it can be because its far too late to leave the EU with no deal and this current deal is pointless.

I did mention around the time of the referendum that whilst ideologically I would vote leave, I had no confidence in this Govt (or any other for that matter) to be able to deliver it in almost any capacity.

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It took all 27 members of the E.U just 40 minutes to sign up to the deal, now if that doesn't tell you it's a deal for them and not us I don't know what will.

It won't go through our Parliament because it's not a good deal for us, surely we haven't got to the stage of excepting a bad deal just for the sake of a deal.

Let's all be honest it's a lot worse than what we had before so why except it, No Brexit is the best way to go we won't and can't sign up to this deal, I'd rather no deal than give into this blackmailing deal where we will put in more money and get nothing out and no say.

Our 39billion will go to bailing out the likes of Italy Greece Spain Portugal and Ireland and propping up the EU.

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The other problem is that the deal goes into such little detail which means that anything is still up for grabs in the "future relationship".

You only have to listen to Macron with his veiled threat about the hard Irish border if they dont get what they want from the fishing policy. 

If I remember rightly the future agreement talks about doing what it can to avoid a hard border and the hope that technology can be used to avoid it. If that is the case, why isnt the technology already in play and ready to roll so that there is nothing to argue over.

If we had a PM that was actually preparing the country for Brexit then we would have a far stronger hand with the EU and far less to fear from a no deal Brexit. 

I have thought about this more and I dont think a second referendum will do anything apart from push the issues back 6 months before igniting the whole debate again but even fiercer. 

I cant see this vote getting through Parliament so I expect the PM to resign and the new PM (God knows who that could be) will be tasked with agreeing an A50 extension. 

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Trump has ramped the pressure up on May by threatening no trade deal with USA if her deal with EU goes through, he hates the EU so he using us as a weapon against them he’s a horrible prick, how anyone would rather have ties with him rather than Europe I have no idea.

We are going to find ourselves at this rate completely on our own with no one to make deals with, we have to have another referendum whether we like it or not, this has become to big for just politicians to decide on. 

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36 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Trump has ramped the pressure up on May by threatening no trade deal with USA if her deal with EU goes through, he hates the EU so he using us as a weapon against them he’s a horrible prick, how anyone would rather have ties with him rather than Europe I have no idea.

We are going to find ourselves at this rate completely on our own with no one to make deals with, we have to have another referendum whether we like it or not, this has become to big for just politicians to decide on. 

Its a fact. Until we agree a full customs arrangement which isnt the CU or the current watered down CU and this is something that thr EU will have to agree to (ie we cant even just say no deal without their agreement) then we wont be able to negotiate our own deals. 

The positive is that by the time we are able to potentially start trading with the USA, Trump will be gone.

 

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11 hours ago, Palfy said:

Trump has ramped the pressure up on May by threatening no trade deal with USA if her deal with EU goes through, he hates the EU so he using us as a weapon against them he’s a horrible prick, how anyone would rather have ties with him rather than Europe I have no idea.

We are going to find ourselves at this rate completely on our own with no one to make deals with, we have to have another referendum whether we like it or not, this has become to big for just politicians to decide on. 

All he's doing is what every other market will do, which is why the arrogance that the UK will be a golden egg for everyone to trade with was a delusion. 

There was strength in numbers, even if it came with limitations. We no longer have that strength and will have to accept even more limitations.

Honestly, the politicians should be sued and jailed for flagrant deception and fraud and the whole debacle should be voided based on the deception laws.

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16 hours ago, Palfy said:

Trump has ramped the pressure up on May by threatening no trade deal with USA if her deal with EU goes through, he hates the EU so he using us as a weapon against them he’s a horrible prick, how anyone would rather have ties with him rather than Europe I have no idea.

We are going to find ourselves at this rate completely on our own with no one to make deals with, we have to have another referendum whether we like it or not, this has become to big for just politicians to decide on. 

strange that is not being reported in the US media at all.  article?

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10 hours ago, Matt said:

All he's doing is what every other market will do, which is why the arrogance that the UK will be a golden egg for everyone to trade with was a delusion. 

There was strength in numbers, even if it came with limitations. We no longer have that strength and will have to accept even more limitations.

Honestly, the politicians should be sued and jailed for flagrant deception and fraud and the whole debacle should be voided based on the deception laws.

No he is saying what he is saying because of the "deal" we are about to be signed up to. I cant imagine anybody who wanted to leave the EU wanting these initial terms.

Based upon what I have read from neutral media outlets there are plenty of countries who are looking to trade with us even if they will not make up the difference from the EU, especially not in the short term.

The long term picture depends entirely on how our politicians approach the challenge of Brexit. Its that part that I have absolutely no hope for and its for that reason that leaving the EU in March would be a massive fuck up.

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12 hours ago, Bailey said:

No he is saying what he is saying because of the "deal" we are about to be signed up to. I cant imagine anybody who wanted to leave the EU wanting these initial terms.

Based upon what I have read from neutral media outlets there are plenty of countries who are looking to trade with us even if they will not make up the difference from the EU, especially not in the short term.

The long term picture depends entirely on how our politicians approach the challenge of Brexit. Its that part that I have absolutely no hope for and its for that reason that leaving the EU in March would be a massive fuck up.

Exactly, and this deal was always going to be what was always going to happen for multiple reasons. Every other country wanting to trade will also leverage this, and as our politicians have shown, they're completely incompetent unless it comes to lying to the public and looking after their own interests. 

The only way he or the other markets would be for Mays deal is if benefited them, not us. The problem with the long term plan is that it can be utterly destroyed with short term actions and we're already seeing this before we've even left. The short term consequences will massively undermine what supposed power we have, which ruins any long term dreams of prospering - it's hard to get ahead in a race if you've decided to knee-cap yourself before the race starts.

If they press ahead, we can add gross negligence on the list of crimes.

Just curious, what do you refer to for "neutral media outlets". I didn't think they existed. 

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Curious to know why people think the deal is bad?   

Also, whether or not Trump is in the White House has very little impact on the trade deal which will be available to the UK.  Either you align with the US regulatory model or the EU regulatory model.  The current deal choses the EU model for obvious reasons.

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9 minutes ago, holystove said:

Curious to know why people think the deal is bad?   

Also, whether or not Trump is in the White House has very little impact on the trade deal which will be available to the UK.  Either you align with the US regulatory model or the EU regulatory model.  The current deal choses the EU model for obvious reasons.

Because nothing changes for the better. We lose what influence we had, we lose our EU citizenship for nothing other than a change of passport colour... can you tell me anything good about this deal that I’ve missed?

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19 minutes ago, Matt said:

Because nothing changes for the better. We lose what influence we had, we lose our EU citizenship for nothing other than a change of passport colour... can you tell me anything good about this deal that I’ve missed?

You are comparing this deal to Remain.  Ofcourse it is worse than Remain.  

I'm saying this deal is pretty much the best she could do.  Brexiteers who now say, well if this is it, I'd rather remain are a bit dim if they were expecting something else.

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1 minute ago, holystove said:

You are comparing this deal to Remain.  Ofcourse it is worse than Remain.  

I'm saying this deal is pretty much the best she could do.  Brexiteers who now say, well if this is it, I'd rather remain are a bit dim if they were expecting something else.

Well yeah, because there's nothing else to compare to. There's been no real alternatives to choose between, mostly because everything that Leave promised was pulled out of their arse without any investigation or planning.

"The best she can do" is still shit compared to what we currently have. So, when you ask why people think it's a bad deal, I think it's self-explanatory. I only asked in case I'd missed something :)

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6 hours ago, holystove said:

You are comparing this deal to Remain.  Ofcourse it is worse than Remain.  

I'm saying this deal is pretty much the best she could do.  Brexiteers who now say, well if this is it, I'd rather remain are a bit dim if they were expecting something else.

Give that man a coconut!

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6 hours ago, holystove said:

You are comparing this deal to Remain.  Ofcourse it is worse than Remain.  

I'm saying this deal is pretty much the best she could do.  Brexiteers who now say, well if this is it, I'd rather remain are a bit dim if they were expecting something else.

There not dim the penny as eventually dropped that Brexit is far away from the Brexit that was promised by Boris and Co, so I would say that they have eventually seen the error of their original vote and want the opportunity now that the truth is more clear to change their minds, and politicians should not be denying any body that right when the proof is clear that they were misled.

They were miss sold a policy now they want to execute the cooling of period, to me that's sensible not dim.

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I just want it to be over and done with it is far too divisive  now.  we are all going to miss out in someways so the sooner we are out  the sooner we can start to tackle any real problems that may occur.

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9 minutes ago, rubecula said:

I just want it to be over and done with it is far too divisive  now.  we are all going to miss out in someways so the sooner we are out  the sooner we can start to tackle any real problems that may occur.

This is the biggest real problem though mate:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46377309

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the bank's warning or the recession?  if you mean the former I say  fuck them, if you mean the latter  its not a problem until it happens

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12 hours ago, rubecula said:

the bank's warning or the recession?  if you mean the former I say  fuck them, if you mean the latter  its not a problem until it happens

Doesn't that scare the shit out of you? This isn'tt the time for sticking fingers in ears and shaking heads mate. If the economy is hit that hard, will we be in a position to deal with whatever happens?

It's not just the banks, it's the Treasury too. Then there's talks of security concerns if no deal is agreed. 

If all this analysis had been done before the vote, it wouldn't even have gone to a referendum

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5 hours ago, Matt said:

Doesn't that scare the shit out of you? This isn'ttt the time for sticking fingers in ears and shaking heads mate. If the economy is hit that hard, will we be in a position to deal with whatever happens?

It's not just the banks, it's the Treasury too. Then there's talks of security concerns if no deal is agreed. 

If all this analysis had been done before the vote, it wouldn't even have gone to a referendum

not as much as the derby game and that doesn't scare me at all

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

Doesn't that scare the shit out of you? This isn'ttt the time for sticking fingers in ears and shaking heads mate. If the economy is hit that hard, will we be in a position to deal with whatever happens?

It's not just the banks, it's the Treasury too. Then there's talks of security concerns if no deal is agreed. 

If all this analysis had been done before the vote, it wouldn't even have gone to a referendum

What sums up the quality of Carney's 'project hysteria' is his forecast that house prices will fall by a third.  I presume he is ignorant of the economic law of 'supply and demand'.

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35 minutes ago, johnh said:

What sums up the quality of Carney's 'project hysteria' is his forecast that house prices will fall by a third.  I presume he is ignorant of the economic law of 'supply and demand'.

Yeah, when you’re letting less people into the country, does that not mean less demand?

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37 minutes ago, johnh said:

What sums up the quality of Carney's 'project hysteria' is his forecast that house prices will fall by a third.  I presume he is ignorant of the economic law of 'supply and demand'.

Very dim lad him, what does he know? Much rather trust tabloid journo's who plainly know better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Carney

 

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54 minutes ago, johnh said:

What sums up the quality of Carney's 'project hysteria' is his forecast that house prices will fall by a third.  I presume he is ignorant of the economic law of 'supply and demand'.

Supply and demand only works if people can afford the demand and if that fails it cuts off the supply.

I work in the new housing industry and in the regions I contract for there as been a dramatic slow down in new home sales and also the same for the resale market.

Prices are already dropping mortgage applications are dropping, the effect of Brexit is beginning to be felt already and when it arrives with no deal it will be carnage.

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33 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Very dim lad him, what does he know? Much rather trust tabloid journo's who plainly know better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Carney

 

Do you think it's possible that he may know a bit more than the finance editor of the of the Telegraph when talking about the financial markets and the affects of political decisions whether nationally or globally.

And he's not tied to any political views or party's by his boss's, if you read the papers that back the conservatives you'd be fooled into thinking that Brexit is the best thing that's happened to us.

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Hypocrisy? Live and well in Mrs May, she's not ruling out a second commons vote if she doesn't get it through first time....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46394431

Presumably because MP's don't understand the position and after it becomes clear to them they might change their minds, remind you of anything?

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23 hours ago, MikeO said:

Very dim lad him, what does he know? Much rather trust tabloid journo's who plainly know better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Carney

 

Mike,  Carney came up with a load of forecasts after the referendum, how did they go?  He's a bit hard faced to come up with the latest load of crap after getting it so wrong last time. He is starting to back off now, claiming that it was a 'worst case' scenario.   Why didn't they also produce a 'best case' scenario?  probably because they didn't bother doing one.

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6 hours ago, MikeO said:

Hypocrisy? Live and well in Mrs May, she's not ruling out a second commons vote if she doesn't get it through first time....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46394431

Presumably because MP's don't understand the position and after it becomes clear to them they might change their minds, remind you of anything?

Response to this one would be enlightening @johnh. Deafening silence from you on that.

On Carney you don't trust the guy, fair enough. Stick with Gove, Boris, Rees-Mogg and Farage because they know better (despite their total lack of any proposals), everyone who knows anything about anything has said we're going to be worse off, even the government's own stats. The counter argument is the scrupulously researched and highly detailed three word response; "brexit means brexit". OK.

I find it extremely depressing that we're not far behind US/Trump as a global laughing stock; but at least we'll take back control of our food banks, homelessness, kids in poverty and massive regional division. All good then.

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4 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike,  Carney came up with a load of forecasts after the referendum, how did they go?  He's a bit hard faced to come up with the latest load of crap after getting it so wrong last time. He is starting to back off now, claiming that it was a 'worst case' scenario.   Why didn't they also produce a 'best case' scenario?  probably because they didn't bother doing one.

More because there isn'tt one.

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