If Not Him, Then Who?

[Bailey]

@ Bailey, we do have a squad capable of CL footy for sure. But with no money to improve on it, there are no managers who will look at us. The managers who are making it at the highest levels are floating in cash, they have a different pressure. Im not sure Ancelloti, Wenger, SAF etc could take over from Moyes at the moment and make this team title contenders. Why? Because the strikers arent scoring. Thats it. Talk about bad tactics (which i accept, Moyes is a big culprit of) all you like, but look at the results so far this season. Lost 3, thats good defensive strategy right there and is just as important as attacking. If youre conceding, makes how many youre scoring a whole lot more important. Drawing most, its hair-tearingly irritating but how many of them have been because the opposition has been lucky or score a wonder goal. We are getting points slowly, its not good enough but all we need are the goals to come in. Thats it. Big ask for some reason but thats the answer, because we are creating the chances. Thats less about the tactics and more about the people on the pitch. His tactics have got us into the CL and Europe 6 times in 9 seasons right? Got to be doing something right.

 

Im not disputing that he doesnt get it right eventually BUT we drop points upon points until we get there and we cant afford to do it every season. It bugs me each time he gradually builds something during the course of the season and then dismantles it over the summer.

 

I disagree that the managers mentioned couldnt take over this Everton team and make us better. Something so simple as bringing on a relevant attacking sub would make us better. Utilising players strengths (not just Cahill), not playing them out of position and not constantly picking favourites would also go some way to improving us. It might not be the real answer to all of our problems but it would improve us.

 

I really disagree that its not just about strikers not scoring, it sure as hell doesnt help but I bet if you looked over the season we have missed as many opportunities as the other team have missed against us (Man City comes to mind recently). We havent been good going forward and we havent really been great defensively, despite the goals against column. The thing that stands out most for me is simply looking at how we played against Liverpool in that first half. How often have we played like that this season? How many times have we pressed so aggresively? We threaded more balls into Yakubus feet that day than we have to any of our main strikers all season. These are the same tactics that made us successful in previous seasons, yet we have seen it maybe 2 or 3 times in parts this season.

 

While you mention Moyes' success in getting us into Europe he has embarrassed us on 2 of them occassions, mainly down to his poor tactical display & philosophy.

[Matt]

Im not disputing that he doesnt get it right eventually BUT we drop points upon points until we get there and we cant afford to do it every season. It bugs me each time he gradually builds something during the course of the season and then dismantles it over the summer.

 

I disagree that the managers mentioned couldnt take over this Everton team and make us better. Something so simple as bringing on a relevant attacking sub would make us better. Utilising players strengths (not just Cahill), not playing them out of position and not constantly picking favourites would also go some way to improving us. It might not be the real answer to all of our problems but it would improve us.

 

I really disagree that its not just about strikers not scoring, it sure as hell doesnt help but I bet if you looked over the season we have missed as many opportunities as the other team have missed against us (Man City comes to mind recently). We havent been good going forward and we havent really been great defensively, despite the goals against column. The thing that stands out most for me is simply looking at how we played against Liverpool in that first half. How often have we played like that this season? How many times have we pressed so aggresively? We threaded more balls into Yakubus feet that day than we have to any of our main strikers all season. These are the same tactics that made us successful in previous seasons, yet we have seen it maybe 2 or 3 times in parts this season.

 

While you mention Moyes' success in getting us into Europe he has embarrassed us on 2 of them occassions, mainly down to his poor tactical display & philosophy.

How many games could we have won if the strikers hit the net? Theyve had boundless chances that have been created. But because theyre not taking them, our midfield players started trying to walk the ball into the box instead or, more often the case, we pass it back and across the field because theres no faith in the forwards

[Bailey]

How many games could we have won if the strikers hit the net? Theyve had boundless chances that have been created. But because theyre not taking them, our midfield players started trying to walk the ball into the box instead or, more often the case, we pass it back and across the field because theres no faith in the forwards

 

I dont really think you can say that because the strikers werent scoring, the midfielders gave up trying. We started playing like this in our first game against Blackburn, its not something that has developed. We have the same problems as we did day one, we have had chances to score but so have the opposition. How many good open play chances did we have yesterday? I can think of 2, both to Coleman? Felli had a header he should also have scored but im more concerned about open play openings (although we arent good from set pieces either!).

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

There is no sole cause, thinking that is just childish but im assuming in this case frustration is taking over. He picks a team, we usually take the opposition apart but we cannot score goals. Strikers, the people on the pitch who actually play the game, have to take the majority of the stick. Our creative midfielders (Arteta, Pienaar) have done very little in adding to the tally. Moyes should take some responsibility, but hes damned if he does, damned if he doesnt. He threw in Beckford too early, he got slammed for it. Now hes not playing him, hes getting slammed for it. Saha had 15 goals last season (in half a season) plus is a proven goal scorer in this league and Moyes has been trying to get him back to form. It takes a while for any player to find form but it hasnt worked, thats not Moyes fault - he cannot see the future - and who can blame him for perservering with his best goalscorer from last year? Yak, when he was supposedly coming back to form still looked like the lazy git he is, was and always will be. Beckford needs more game time but when youre low on goals, you tend to stick with those you know have done so in the past.

 

The alternative is that you try to change strategies like against West Ham, like everyone on here has been crying for. It didnt work, so lets call for his head He dropped the lead weight that Saha has become and stuck Arteta in, hoping for a bit of magic from again a player who has certain quality but for some reason isnt clicking. It didnt work this time, but football is never about quick fixes!

 

Hafnia, your arguements are usually all well explained and well put (even if i rarely agree) and i enjoy reading your point of view. But putting all the blame on Moyes is just not accurate. Its the players on the pitch that arent getting the goals. Yes he picks the team and the players that arent scoring but at the end of the day, its the strikers who are on the pitch to get goals and theyre not doing it. The blame lies mostly there.\

 

@ Bailey, we do have a squad capable of CL footy for sure. But with no money to improve on it, there are no managers who will look at us. The managers who are making it at the highest levels are floating in cash, they have a different pressure. Im not sure Ancelloti, Wenger, SAF etc could take over from Moyes at the moment and make this team title contenders. Why? Because the strikers arent scoring. Thats it. Talk about bad tactics (which i accept, Moyes is a big culprit of) all you like, but look at the results so far this season. Lost 3, thats good defensive strategy right there and is just as important as attacking. If youre conceding, makes how many youre scoring a whole lot more important. Drawing most, its hair-tearingly irritating but how many of them have been because the opposition has been lucky or score a wonder goal. We are getting points slowly, its not good enough but all we need are the goals to come in. Thats it. Big ask for some reason but thats the answer, because we are creating the chances. Thats less about the tactics and more about the people on the pitch. His tactics have got us into the CL and Europe 6 times in 9 seasons right? Got to be doing something right.

 

 

Agree with all of that except I think hafnia is full of shit!

 

Lol sorry been on the pop again but hey that what i think

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Im not disputing that he doesnt get it right eventually BUT we drop points upon points until we get there and we cant afford to do it every season. It bugs me each time he gradually builds something during the course of the season and then dismantles it over the summer.

 

I disagree that the managers mentioned couldnt take over this Everton team and make us better. Something so simple as bringing on a relevant attacking sub would make us better. Utilising players strengths (not just Cahill), not playing them out of position and not constantly picking favourites would also go some way to improving us. It might not be the real answer to all of our problems but it would improve us.

 

I really disagree that its not just about strikers not scoring, it sure as hell doesnt help but I bet if you looked over the season we have missed as many opportunities as the other team have missed against us (Man City comes to mind recently). We havent been good going forward and we havent really been great defensively, despite the goals against column. The thing that stands out most for me is simply looking at how we played against Liverpool in that first half. How often have we played like that this season? How many times have we pressed so aggresively? We threaded more balls into Yakubus feet that day than we have to any of our main strikers all season. These are the same tactics that made us successful in previous seasons, yet we have seen it maybe 2 or 3 times in parts this season.

 

While you mention Moyes' success in getting us into Europe he has embarrassed us on 2 of them occassions, mainly down to his poor tactical display & philosophy.

 

 

 

A bit of a chicken and the egg scenario I know but its also the only game this season when any of our forwards have moved more than two yards off the ball to receive a pass ( Beckford apart , but he cant finish)

[Hafnia]

Problem is we mere mortals are identifying things that have worked well where moyes has either regressed or chosen to ignore, look at spurs, momentum all the way. Redknapp as much as I hate him seems to be close to nailing his formation and tactics combos.

[thehelmet]

I just started a new topic on the whole striker crisis, didn't really read through this one first, and humbly apologise for this.

 

I disagree with people wanting to sack Moyes, I too can see the good that he has done for this club. What I cannot defend or agree with is the complete lack of ambition being shown at this club at the moment. You can talk Footy manager tactics and wonderkid buys all you want, but playing players who are very obviously underperforming, Arteta and Saha being the two most apparent ones right one, is a problem that has been going on for the better part of this season. I still think Beckford when he's played has produced chances and, if very occasionally, scored and has been put forward the Yak looked to be on the right path but was dropped again. And Cahill again, has thrived off a lone striker carrying the team together with Baines, Peanuts and Distin this season. How do you isolate him up front with Arteta, who is as mentioned performing well below par, and Rods who has played very sporadically in support.

 

But with the investment put forward I don't it's fair to demand that much more from Moyes. I believed during the summer and at the start of this summer that this might be our year to break into the top 4, even without investment, but it seems now that the more pressure Moyes is under, the more he can pull the team togheter. As it is he seems struck by indecision, and quickly running out of choices. Some of his own making, but a big part because we have failed to strengthen the squad and have been hampered by injuries for a couple of seasons.

Its still deserved critiscism but I think a good deal of it should be pointed to the board and chairman as well.

[Steve_E]

Personally i think we would have to be sniffing round the like's of Martin Jol, didnt have a great time at Spurs i'll admit that, but he had a great time at Ajax last season, basically using their youngsters....... Just a thought....

 

Actually Jol was critiqued a lot because he didn't play any youngsters (and this season for his negative tactics as well).

 

Frank de Boer is the caretaker manager now. He has immediately reinstated the 4-3-3 at Ajax and has them playing clear, easy but effective football, focusing a lot on positioning and movement. And he has given some of their young wingers chances. Back to Ajax' basics. If Moyes was to be sacked, which I don't want him to be, de Boer would be a great manager, if he'd want to come here.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Steve_E

[Hafnia]

I just started a new topic on the whole striker crisis, didn't really read through this one first, and humbly apologise for this.

 

I disagree with people wanting to sack Moyes, I too can see the good that he has done for this club. What I cannot defend or agree with is the complete lack of ambition being shown at this club at the moment. You can talk Footy manager tactics and wonderkid buys all you want, but playing players who are very obviously underperforming, Arteta and Saha being the two most apparent ones right one, is a problem that has been going on for the better part of this season. I still think Beckford when he's played has produced chances and, if very occasionally, scored and has been put forward the Yak looked to be on the right path but was dropped again. And Cahill again, has thrived off a lone striker carrying the team together with Baines, Peanuts and Distin this season. How do you isolate him up front with Arteta, who is as mentioned performing well below par, and Rods who has played very sporadically in support.

 

But with the investment put forward I don't it's fair to demand that much more from Moyes. I believed during the summer and at the start of this summer that this might be our year to break into the top 4, even without investment, but it seems now that the more pressure Moyes is under, the more he can pull the team togheter. As it is he seems struck by indecision, and quickly running out of choices. Some of his own making, but a big part because we have failed to strengthen the squad and have been hampered by injuries for a couple of seasons.

Its still deserved critiscism but I think a good deal of it should be pointed to the board and chairman as well.

 

Moyes and indecision go hand in hand. When he makes a decision it's either baffling or too late. Moyes and the board must judged as two separate entities. The board have been a constant thorn in the clubs side and need turfing out. Moyes has publically supported them, so in my mind you make your bed you lie in it. It's no good blaming the board when results have been poor against far less equipped teams. He is paid a great deal of money to manage our club.

 

The board can be blamed for not giving moyes the funds to push to qualify for the champions league when those all around us were stagnant. Moyes can be blamed for making a total pigs ear of a decent team who have struggled to get results against teams far less equipped than ours.

 

The bill and moyes marriage is heading for some rocky times.

[Jimmy the blue]

One thing is certain no one is irreplaceable in any football club. Managers like players are judged on results, Roy Hodgson at Liverpool has gone from being manager of the year to the devil incarnate (I'm pleased to say although he is a decent bloke). It is utter folly to suggest that David Moyes is not replaceable, he is and will by whoever gets appointed next. I recall the day he was put in charge the general reaction was 'David who, that bloke at Preston, he is not good enough for us'. We will be in his debt for many years for bring us back from the brink but as I said earlier he seems like a man with no answers which I find to be a tad sad but EFC is more important than mere sentiment

[Hafnia]

One thing is certain no one is irreplaceable in any football club. Managers like players are judged on results, Roy Hodgson at Liverpool has gone from being manager of the year to the devil incarnate (I'm pleased to say although he is a decent bloke). It is utter folly to suggest that David Moyes is not replaceable, he is and will by whoever gets appointed next. I recall the day he was put in charge the general reaction was 'David who, that bloke at Preston, he is not good enough for us'. We will be in his debt for many years for bring us back from the brink but as I said earlier he seems like a man with no answers which I find to be a tad sad but EFC is more important than mere sentiment

 

Well said. Would saf be allowed to take united from title winners or challengers to fifth or sixth in the league? Not a chance, and this is a man who has single handedly transformed united from a team similar to our current standing to one of the best club sides for the past fifteen years.

 

Sentiment has no place in football, there have been far better managers than moyes to be told thanks for your time but bye. Managers who have delivered trophies. Mostly these were men who challenged the board to support them, whilst moyes is on a fair old packet I hardly think he would do that. Everton will turn out to be the biggest club moyes manages.

 

Potentially moyes will and should be remembered as one of the best strict budget managers of recent years, someone who can get a team of journey men triers punching above their weight (kilbane, bent, carsley) but someone who doesn't seem to understand the finer attacking tactics employed by those managers at the top.

His determination and work ethic should not be questioned, but we need more guile.

 

It seems to me he surrounds himself with too many like minded people and that could be his downfall. There is no surprise that Cahill is his favourite, he is everything that moyes is. Determined, gritty, focused, who will try to make up for technical short comings by being the hardest working, but Frank lampard or Steven gerrard he ain't.

 

His tactics at the cutting edge games in the uefa cup were enough to see his failings, as is his record against the top four.

[Hafnia]

Agree with all of that except I think hafnia is full of shit!

 

Lol sorry been on the pop again but hey that what i think

 

Only just seen that comment, goes to show how selective as to whose posts I value or respect. Not gonna get drawn into a discussion on that, the lack of class is apparent.

[Bill]

"Well said. Would saf be allowed to take united from title winners or challengers to fifth or sixth in the league? Not a chance, and this is a man who has single handedly transformed united from a team similar to our current standing to one of the best club sides for the past fifteen years".

 

 

I think a couple of hundred million has helped him along the way.

[Hafnia]

His consistency has been devastating though, most of the money spent has been done relevant to the income his success has provided. He won the league with a bunch of kids, which became the basis for one of the best teams in Europe. Rarely does he get it wrong, and progress is almost continual even with rebuilds.

 

Moyes has built and taken us backwards with his pre historic tactics. Most teams in the league play fast attractive football, we are having to try and walk it into the net as the tempo and pace of our play allows other teams to get back behind the ball.

[Bailey]

A bit of a chicken and the egg scenario I know but its also the only game this season when any of our forwards have moved more than two yards off the ball to receive a pass ( Beckford apart , but he cant finish)

 

Its also the only time we have started winning the ball in our their half and played quick football. When we slowly knock it side to side, the defence gets set and it makes space harder to come by and strikers easier to mark. Yakubu has made some clever runs (like he did against WH only for a superb sliding tackle by Parker), and whilst I agree that he plays a lot more centrally than the other two, he still does look to make runs in behind the CBs and in the channels. At the end of the day he wants to score goals and if you give him the opportunities he will. Whilst he has spurned some, we havent given him too many opportunities either.

 

One thing is certain no one is irreplaceable in any football club. Managers like players are judged on results, Roy Hodgson at Liverpool has gone from being manager of the year to the devil incarnate (I'm pleased to say although he is a decent bloke). It is utter folly to suggest that David Moyes is not replaceable, he is and will by whoever gets appointed next. I recall the day he was put in charge the general reaction was 'David who, that bloke at Preston, he is not good enough for us'. We will be in his debt for many years for bring us back from the brink but as I said earlier he seems like a man with no answers which I find to be a tad sad but EFC is more important than mere sentiment

 

Really well put.

[Bailey]

His consistency has been devastating though, most of the money spent has been done relevant to the income his success has provided. He won the league with a bunch of kids, which became the basis for one of the best teams in Europe. Rarely does he get it wrong, and progress is almost continual even with rebuilds.

 

Moyes has built and taken us backwards with his pre historic tactics. Most teams in the league play fast attractive football, we are having to try and walk it into the net as the tempo and pace of our play allows other teams to get back behind the ball.

 

If im honest I dont give a toss about attractive football, I just want us to play effective football. Which as you say isnt through slow predictive build up play.

[StevO]

It was only a matter of time until we got a thread like this! It's amazing how people can slag moyes off for not hitting the heights he set himself!

I'd just like to remind everyone of Walter smith, mike walker and Howard kendalls third reign!

Get a fucking grip people!

We say we know our history! Well not all of our history has been rosey!

Remember where moyes brought us from, I didn't fancy getting relegated and he saved us.

Don't even know why I bothered writing this, I normally couldn't give a shit when these threads happen.

[Hafnia]

Blimey, your loyalty is something to behold. With me it's a case of thanks for the memories but everton f.c is the only thing that gets my loyalty.

 

If that shower across the park can get rid of rafa despite European cups, fa cups etc after running out of ideas and dismantling a half decent team then why are we held to a manager who also appears to have lost his way?

 

The warning signs have been there for a while now, tactics, team selections and substitutions, his record with strikers is poor and it all seems to be culminating now.

 

Unless we are taken over in the way that city and Chelsea were, then we are stuck with moyes and his mega wages. I would suggest he needs an assistant manager who is attack minded and who would challenge his negative way of thinking.

 

His vow to carry on doing what he has been doing is scary, we will be in the drop zone soon.

[pehitt]

Had sir happen to retire and utd take moyes off us id love to see Ian Holloway here.

 

He gets his team playing open football which is exactly what we need and i think we have a perfect squad to do so.

 

Moyes is far too defensive and careful and holloway would be used to not having a whole lot to spend !

[Greggles]

im a of the view that moyes certainly should stay, at least for another season, what i think we could with is maybe different attacking coaches? wouldnt mine alan irvine back as assistant manager either tbh.

[jcrawfor]

As someone who is calling for DM to change or step aside, I've noticed that the counter argument consists of 4 points.

-Moyes brought us out of an annual relegation battle to Euro contenders.

-Moyes is the best we can get.

-Moyes' tactics worked last year with the same squad.

-Players are to fault, not Moyes.

 

Of those, the only one that holds any water in that Moyes might be the best manager we can afford. But it sure as hell is not because of his match-day and training week abilities. The only reason Moyes is good for Everton is because he puts up with the outstanding lack of transfer funds and somehow finds gems for dirt cheap. That's it. But, honestly, for 60k/week I'm sure quite a few managers are willing to deal with that, they just may not be as good at it.

 

Players are surely to be blamed, but it is Moyes who continues to choose out of form players because he has some demented favoritism. The strikers need to step up, but they can hardly do that if DM won't give them a decent run. Saha has proved that no matter how good one looks in training, it is match day for that counts.

 

The remaining two are the easiest. Moyes has brought the club a long way, but he has shown us over the last 20-odd matches that he hasn't the capability and adaptability to take us any further. Good managers change their game to suit their players, opposition, etc. Moyes can't or won't do this. Which brings us to the biggest stinker of the bunch. The idea that because something worked in the past means it will work in the future is bullshit of the highest order. Sure, the team went on a magnificent run last year with similar tactics (+ right sided attack provided by Landon), but that hasn't carried over to this term. What that argument fails to see is that other teams have adjusted their tactics against us to counter what was new and successful next year. If Moyes can't continue to change his personnel and tactics to meet the opposition then it is bad news for EFC.

 

Give him til the end of the month, if we fail to win a match, he needs to be gone. End of. Our squad should be at the other end of the table and we need to find a manager who can make that happen. Otherwise it's the Championship next year.

[Matt]

As someone who is calling for DM to change or step aside, I've noticed that the counter argument consists of 4 points.

-Moyes brought us out of an annual relegation battle to Euro contenders.

-Moyes is the best we can get.

-Moyes' tactics worked last year with the same squad.

-Players are to fault, not Moyes.

 

Of those, the only one that holds any water in that Moyes might be the best manager we can afford. But it sure as hell is not because of his match-day and training week abilities. The only reason Moyes is good for Everton is because he puts up with the outstanding lack of transfer funds and somehow finds gems for dirt cheap. That's it. But, honestly, for 60k/week I'm sure quite a few managers are willing to deal with that, they just may not be as good at it.

 

Players are surely to be blamed, but it is Moyes who continues to choose out of form players because he has some demented favoritism. The strikers need to step up, but they can hardly do that if DM won't give them a decent run. Saha has proved that no matter how good one looks in training, it is match day for that counts.

 

The remaining two are the easiest. Moyes has brought the club a long way, but he has shown us over the last 20-odd matches that he hasn't the capability and adaptability to take us any further. Good managers change their game to suit their players, opposition, etc. Moyes can't or won't do this. Which brings us to the biggest stinker of the bunch. The idea that because something worked in the past means it will work in the future is bullshit of the highest order. Sure, the team went on a magnificent run last year with similar tactics (+ right sided attack provided by Landon), but that hasn't carried over to this term. What that argument fails to see is that other teams have adjusted their tactics against us to counter what was new and successful next year. If Moyes can't continue to change his personnel and tactics to meet the opposition then it is bad news for EFC.

 

Give him til the end of the month, if we fail to win a match, he needs to be gone. End of. Our squad should be at the other end of the table and we need to find a manager who can make that happen. Otherwise it's the Championship next year.

 

bored of this now. Last 20 matches we havent performed but look at the run at the end of last season. We're talking about the same players and tactics that from Jan through May finished 3rd in the league behind Chelsea and Utd, stats wise. Yeah, hes looong lost the plot, doesnt know what he is doing, yadda fuckin yadda. Theres a reason he is one of the best paid managers in the league, its because he is one of the best managers in the league. Theres a reason why he is sticking to his tactics, because theyre proven and have worked consistently. Theres a reason why he is sticking with his underperformers, because theyve proven they can be fantastic. It is the people on the pitch that need to do the job. It is that simple.

[Hafnia]

bored of this now. Last 20 matches we havent performed but look at the run at the end of last season. We're talking about the same players and tactics that from Jan through May finished 3rd in the league behind Chelsea and Utd, stats wise. Yeah, hes looong lost the plot, doesnt know what he is doing, yadda fuckin yadda. Theres a reason he is one of the best paid managers in the league, its because he is one of the best managers in the league. Theres a reason why he is sticking to his tactics, because theyre proven and have worked consistently. Theres a reason why he is sticking with his underperformers, because theyve proven they can be fantastic. It is the people on the pitch that need to do the job. It is that simple.

 

He's not comparable as one of the best managers in the league as he is the longest tenured without winning anything. Not to say that we should have expected to win the league but his performance in cup runs bar a final and a semi has been poor. His performance against the top 4 managers has been poor also.

 

His salary has progressed to the level of the top 4/5 managers, however the same cannot be said for his tactics, he does not seem to have progressed in that regard. His performances alike the team have been up and down, his negative tactics still apparent against teams we should dominate.

[Blue 250]

As someone who is calling for DM to change or step aside, I've noticed that the counter argument consists of 4 points.

-Moyes brought us out of an annual relegation battle to Euro contenders.

-Moyes is the best we can get.

-Moyes' tactics worked last year with the same squad.

-Players are to fault, not Moyes.

 

Of those, the only one that holds any water in that Moyes might be the best manager we can afford. But it sure as hell is not because of his match-day and training week abilities. The only reason Moyes is good for Everton is because he puts up with the outstanding lack of transfer funds and somehow finds gems for dirt cheap. That's it. But, honestly, for 60k/week I'm sure quite a few managers are willing to deal with that, they just may not be as good at it.

 

Players are surely to be blamed, but it is Moyes who continues to choose out of form players because he has some demented favoritism. The strikers need to step up, but they can hardly do that if DM won't give them a decent run. Saha has proved that no matter how good one looks in training, it is match day for that counts.

 

The remaining two are the easiest. Moyes has brought the club a long way, but he has shown us over the last 20-odd matches that he hasn't the capability and adaptability to take us any further. Good managers change their game to suit their players, opposition, etc. Moyes can't or won't do this. Which brings us to the biggest stinker of the bunch. The idea that because something worked in the past means it will work in the future is bullshit of the highest order. Sure, the team went on a magnificent run last year with similar tactics (+ right sided attack provided by Landon), but that hasn't carried over to this term. What that argument fails to see is that other teams have adjusted their tactics against us to counter what was new and successful next year. If Moyes can't continue to change his personnel and tactics to meet the opposition then it is bad news for EFC.

 

Give him til the end of the month, if we fail to win a match, he needs to be gone. End of. Our squad should be at the other end of the table and we need to find a manager who can make that happen. Otherwise it's the Championship next year.

 

He's sticking with players who aren't showing form in the vain bloody hope, they might just find some!

 

Our squad shouldn't be at that end of the table!(you say).....well untill a very late dodgy goal by Joe Cole, a squad including Gerrard, Reina, Torres, Cole, Johnson, Carrigher, Kuyt and a few other pretty decent players were below us, and after last season (check last seasons final table) Aston Villa, Fulham, Birmingham etc wont be very happy thay are pretty much in the same crap as us.

 

We don't have a God given right to be top 6.......Moyes and the squad have had to work pretty dam hard over the last few seasons to be thought of a top 6 team.

 

I'm not saying you aren't making valid points, we do have problems, we are too low, some players are off form........I'd say Moyes and the lads are working pretty hard to solve the problems, we need a few breaks, if they come great, if they don't, work fuc%ing harder.

 

I can think of three managers who would come to Everton, Martin O'Neil, Fat Sam, Dave Jones and I'm sure there are loads of others who would love a 3 year contract, with or without money to spend on transfers........but I bet none of those will have got to an FA cup final, semi-final, finished 4th once, a 5th and a couple of 6th places.So how bad is Moyes?

 

I'm sure when Moyes knows he can't take us any further, he will do what Martin O'Neil did.

 

How the hell can people post that Moyes has fallen out with the players!!How do we know that!

 

Pienaar (I believe) said if Everton could meet his wage demand he would stay.....and the Yak is known for his sulks.....Jonny doesn't seem settled here and Bily hasn't made an impact.....ALL because Moyes has fallen out with them

 

Sure I'm looking down nervously, I want points for safety rather than Europen qualification at the moment, but anything other than a bottom 5 finish I'd still like to see Moyes here for next season.

[MikeO]

His performance against the top 4 managers has been poor also.

 

Last ten games against top four (debatably Utd, City, Chelsea, Arse) going back to last December...

 

Won five, drawn four, lost one . Three of the wins against City admittedly, but unbeaten in five against United and Chelsea is quite useful by any standards.

[Hafnia]

Last ten games against top four (debatably Utd, City, Chelsea, Arse) going back to last December...

 

Won five, drawn four, lost one . Three of the wins against City admittedly, but unbeaten in five against United and Chelsea is quite useful by any standards.

 

 

http://www.prem38.com/Other%20Pages/versus_the_big_4.htm

 

Comparitively (to other clubs) - even recently when things have been on the up, performance versus top 4 ain't great. I recall a table produced a year or so ago and it made depressing reading, will try and find and add to this.

[MikeO]

http://www.prem38.com/Other%20Pages/versus_the_big_4.htm

 

Comparitively (to other clubs) - even recently when things have been on the up, performance versus top 4 ain't great. I recall a table produced a year or so ago and it made depressing reading, will try and find and add to this.

Citing the last three games doesn't change the truth of the last ten.

 

And neither does finding a table showing what happened before the last ten.

 

You have many valid points (which I don't neccessarily agree with) but saying he has a poor record against the top teams is really pushing it.....it's the one area where we're doing OK.

[Jimmy the blue]

Citing the last three games doesn't change the truth of the last ten.

 

And neither does finding a table showing what happened before the last ten.

 

You have many valid points (which I don't neccessarily agree with) but saying he has a poor record against the top teams is really pushing it.....it's the one area where we're doing OK.

 

 

TBH Mike that is one thing I find hard to understand, he does lift the present team when it comes to the big boys but fails lamentably with the so called lesser lights. The fact remains that at present we are showing relegation form, four wins from twenty games is a 20% win rate which is bloody awful. Cost of players can't be it as Ian Holloway gets by on fresh air, his tactics have been bizarre at times and his trust in woefully out of form players is laughable. We as a club cannot go on like this, something has to be done as sitting back doing nothing just isn't good enough

[jcrawfor]

bored of this now. Last 20 matches we havent performed but look at the run at the end of last season. We're talking about the same players and tactics that from Jan through May finished 3rd in the league behind Chelsea and Utd, stats wise. Yeah, hes looong lost the plot, doesnt know what he is doing, yadda fuckin yadda. Theres a reason he is one of the best paid managers in the league, its because he is one of the best managers in the league. Theres a reason why he is sticking to his tactics, because theyre proven and have worked consistently. Theres a reason why he is sticking with his underperformers, because theyve proven they can be fantastic. It is the people on the pitch that need to do the job. It is that simple.

 

You're quite dense, that bullshit argument is exactly what my post tried to unravel. The first mistake your argument makes is that because something worked in the past, it will do the same now and in the future. That is simply not the case. Let's say we play rock, paper, scissors. I play rock the first time and you play scissors, I win. The second game I continue playing rock and you again play scissors, I win. The third time I play rock yet again, but this time you play rock, we draw. I play rock a 4th time, but now you play scissors again, to see if my change in tactics changed yours. Now that you've seen I am not changing my tactics based on yours, you play paper in our 5th game and I play rock, you win. This is essentially what has happened to Moyes, he found a tactic that worked, he kept playing it to some success. Other managers figured this out and changed their tactics against us, when Moyes did not change the problem began.

 

That is the problem with Moyes, he will not change. He is stuck in his ways and shows no signs of adaptability or learning. We've seen no tactical progression in at least 3 years and very little over 9. He's been found out and other managers take advantage of that.

 

Now about the fine run of form we had from Jan-May of last year. It was wonderful. Was it related to Moyes' tactics? Debatable. He had his best players fresh from injury when most teams were experiencing a mid-season drag. The players put in the performances that they're not putting in now. They must be faulted for having poor form (save for Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Coleman and Fellaini). But, as the manager it is Moyes' job to find ways to make his best players play their best. He's not done that. Worse, he's blown the confidence of Yak and Becks while consistently playing a striker whose not scored in the league since FEB 2009!!! Inexcusable.

 

Finally, about the past successes of David Moyes at Everton. He has done a fine job as manager, until this past year. But, we need to part ways before things go terribly sour. He's stagnated and clearly needs a change of scenery, we could use the same. Moyes has been a fantastic help to correcting our path as a club, but all things come to an end. Past success cannot guarantee future success. Look at Liverpool. They had a manager who had won them a CL trophy, a couple FA cups and strong finishes in the league. But, he goes one year, makes poor signings, team selections and match strategies; they finish 7th instead of 2nd and Rafa gets the sack one year after being 5 points from league champions. Moyes has done the exact same here. He fucked up transfers this summer, and is 20 matches into a season that will surely not see us finish higher than 10th (being quite optimistic). He needs to go before things get too bad and we find ourselves staring at relegation and playing Palace, Reading and Middlesbrough.

[Jimmy the blue]

You're quite dense, that bullshit argument is exactly what my post tried to unravel. The first mistake your argument makes is that because something worked in the past, it will do the same now and in the future. That is simply not the case. Let's say we play rock, paper, scissors. I play rock the first time and you play scissors, I win. The second game I continue playing rock and you again play scissors, I win. The third time I play rock yet again, but this time you play rock, we draw. I play rock a 4th time, but now you play scissors again, to see if my change in tactics changed yours. Now that you've seen I am not changing my tactics based on yours, you play paper in our 5th game and I play rock, you win. This is essentially what has happened to Moyes, he found a tactic that worked, he kept playing it to some success. Other managers figured this out and changed their tactics against us, when Moyes did not change the problem began.

 

That is the problem with Moyes, he will not change. He is stuck in his ways and shows no signs of adaptability or learning. We've seen no tactical progression in at least 3 years and very little over 9. He's been found out and other managers take advantage of that.

 

Now about the fine run of form we had from Jan-May of last year. It was wonderful. Was it related to Moyes' tactics? Debatable. He had his best players fresh from injury when most teams were experiencing a mid-season drag. The players put in the performances that they're not putting in now. They must be faulted for having poor form (save for Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Coleman and Fellaini). But, as the manager it is Moyes' job to find ways to make his best players play their best. He's not done that. Worse, he's blown the confidence of Yak and Becks while consistently playing a striker whose not scored in the league since FEB 2009!!! Inexcusable.

 

Finally, about the past successes of David Moyes at Everton. He has done a fine job as manager, until this past year. But, we need to part ways before things go terribly sour. He's stagnated and clearly needs a change of scenery, we could use the same. Moyes has been a fantastic help to correcting our path as a club, but all things come to an end. Past success cannot guarantee future success. Look at Liverpool. They had a manager who had won them a CL trophy, a couple FA cups and strong finishes in the league. But, he goes one year, makes poor signings, team selections and match strategies; they finish 7th instead of 2nd and Rafa gets the sack one year after being 5 points from league champions. Moyes has done the exact same here. He fucked up transfers this summer, and is 20 matches into a season that will surely not see us finish higher than 10th (being quite optimistic). He needs to go before things get too bad and we find ourselves staring at relegation and playing Palace, Reading and Middlesbrough.

 

 

Sorry Bluenose but one big argument against him going now is the fact that Sam Allardyce is looking for a job, Moyes should be given to at least the seasons end. If we do go down then so be it, hopefully there are three worse teams than us in the league although at this moment in time no one has won fewer than we have done I would also point out that BK shows faith in his managers far beyond the norm so asking for his head now is akin to pissing into the wind mate