Is it time for Moyes to go?

[Avinalaff]

 

 

Av, Moyes is the third longest tenured manager in the prem - he started extremely brightly albeit showing some worrying tactical traits, none the less he transformed an old inherited team into a younger, fitter, efficient unit. Full marks, no doubt about that.

 

A few years on from what you would call his best time, and his team is edging towards looking like the one he inherited, more worryingly he seems to have lost the energy, the team is very stale, one dimensional and flat. The time for a change is here, either within himself or within the role - one way or another it needs to happen.

 

It's not looking stale because of Moyes though Haf. Moyes is a victim of circumstance just like we are.

[SimonButtle]

 

Have we not had a good 10 years under Moyes?

 

I think the good times are still with us. We might not be winning titles, but we're hardly propping the division up every year either.

 

We need to forget silverware. Silverware was a thing of the past, contested between teams that all had a good shout. Football is no longer an even playing field, and even if we were taken over, what about the other teams who aren't taken over? What of their fate?

 

Are we so selfish as Everton fans that we hate the money in football, only if we aren't getting any, but if we do get some, then hey ho, I'm alright Jack? I don't think we are. Most would like a level playing field for all.

 

Is the answer for 'all' teams to spend billions, just so players and agents etc get rich, or is the answer to bring the rich teams back down, and limit the spending of every team, meanwhile bringing the running costs of the game back down to earth?

 

The problem isn't that Kenwright is skint. The problem is that football has been turned into a joke, and now multimillionaires can't afford to run their clubs, yet the expectancy of fans remains, despite knowing that the game is in a proper mess.

 

Fans need to get a grip, and the governing bodies need to sanction a lot more than they are doing.

the first few years, yes maybe we did, but not over the last few, it has gone very stale, very negative, and Moyes seems to have lost that energy, i think its quite sad that you think whats going on at the club recently over the last few seasons can be classed as good times Av

[Hafnia]

 

It's not looking stale because of Moyes though Haf. Moyes is a victim of circumstance just like we are.

 

I think we all need to assess what is attributed to moyes and at what level. Lack of funds, needing to sell has impacted him no doubt about it - I hold the board accountable there.

 

The fact is he has a team that is far better equipped than the results they are achieving. His shortfalls have been tolerated for some time now as the relative good league finishes have papered over the cracks - it appears that he unwavering in his tactical approach and that will be his downfall in my opinion.

[SimonButtle]

 

I think we all need to assess what is attributed to moyes and at what level. Lack of funds, needing to sell has impacted him no doubt about it - I hold the board accountable there.

 

The fact is he has a team that is far better equipped than the results they are achieving. His shortfalls have been tolerated for some time now as the relative good league finishes have papered over the cracks - it appears that he unwavering in his tactical approach and that will be his downfall in my opinion.

i agree, i think Moyes is more a victim of his own naivity and stubborness

Edited November 10, 2011 by theprisoner

[Avinalaff]

the first few years, yes maybe we did, but not over the last few, it has gone very stale, very negative, and Moyes seems to have lost that energy, i think its quite sad that you think whats going on at the club recently over the last few seasons can be classed as good times Av

 

It's about expectation levels, and being realistic.

 

We were at Wembley recently, enjoying European football, and playing great stuff on the pitch.

 

That wasn't too long ago.

 

We've had little funding other than what Moyes has created himself from shrewd management, and have lot key players in the mix. Meanwhile other teams have spent heavily, and not just the top teams, but even the lower teams.

 

The lower teams are still not as good as we are despite their spending, which shows how good Moyes made the squad, but how does he keep it going? It's like asking an artist to paint a masterpiece without giving him brushes, paint, or inspiration.

 

City have spent £800m on their 25 players including wages, and probably a billion on their whole squad. City are now able to compete with the big clubs, but what chance do we, or anybody else have?

 

To decide whether we have experienced good times, we have to look at 'everybody' and not just those with power.

[Avinalaff]

 

I think we all need to assess what is attributed to moyes and at what level. Lack of funds, needing to sell has impacted him no doubt about it - I hold the board accountable there.

 

The fact is he has a team that is far better equipped than the results they are achieving. His shortfalls have been tolerated for some time now as the relative good league finishes have papered over the cracks - it appears that he unwavering in his tactical approach and that will be his downfall in my opinion.

 

Tactics are controversial Haf.

That was why I quoted a chess game, and the uneven sides, and also why I stated about fans not seeing the players like Moyes does. It needs to be proven with a full squad, and we don't have that.

[Hafnia]

 

Tactics are controversial Haf.

That was why I quoted a chess game, and the uneven sides, and also why I stated about fans not seeing the players like Moyes does. It needs to be proven with a full squad, and we don't have that.

 

 

Football is a simple game complicated by idiots... moyes is falling into that trap

[Avinalaff]

 

 

Football is a simple game complicated by idiots... moyes is falling into that trap

 

Could you do the job Haf?

 

Tell me yes and I'll gladly put a mention in for you.

[Hafnia]

 

Could you do the job Haf?

 

Tell me yes and I'll gladly put a mention in for you.

 

If you can that would be ace - for £70k a week I would crawl there

 

Tell them a few things:

 

I promise to play to my strikers strengths - and maybe even work on a strike partnership

I won't play people out of position

I will drop players who are not in form

I will try and learn more than one formation

I will get the players to play at a high tempo

I will not bring a defender when chasing a game

I will find an assistant who can and will challenge me

[StevO]

 

It's not looking stale because of Moyes though Haf. Moyes is a victim of circumstance just like we are.

 

but it is his tactics that are stale, is that not part of his job?

[StevO]

 

If you can that would be ace - for £70k a week I would crawl there

 

Tell them a few things:

 

I promise to play to my strikers strengths - and maybe even work on a strike partnership

I won't play people out of position

I will drop players who are not in form

I will try and learn more than one formation

I will get the players to play at a high tempo

I will not bring a defender when chasing a game

I will find an assistant who can and will challenge me

 

its this bit! it just kills me! i know i often use SAF as an example, but he is the best as far as i am concerned. Since Moyes has been at Everton, United have been through about six different formations, changing every season or two. Moyes has stuck with 451 the whole time. There is no evolution with him.

[Avinalaff]

 

but it is his tactics that are stale, is that not part of his job?

 

I'm not qualified enough to discuss his tactics Steve. I'm not a pro footballer or manager, nor am I in the room when he is discussing the tactics with the team, so can't grasp his game plan from pure speculation. If I spoke about it with him, I'd be better able to challenge it, but it's been a while since myself and Dave had lunch whilst discussing the teams flaws. I'm sure he'll ring me when he wants my advice.

[StevO]

but you are saying he is a victim of circumstance, i am asking, is it the football clubs manager to decide the tactics?

if it is his job to decide the tactics, then it is his own fault.

[Avinalaff]

but you are saying he is a victim of circumstance, i am asking, is it the football clubs manager to decide the tactics?

if it is his job to decide the tactics, then it is his own fault.

 

I'm not being sarcastic when I say I'm not the guy to be discussing tactics with, but I will say that no matter what game plan you have, it's important that the pieces you move are up to the job. How can he use the same tactics with different players?

 

I don't see too much wrong with his tactics either to be fair.

 

We have 4 defenders, like most teams I know, and play 4-5-1, as a basic line up, with differences occasionally that are beyond my capacity as a poster to properly describe. We have our best players on the pitch, and the majority of them play in the correct position, with the exception of Moyes having to improvise the wings.

 

If we were to play every player in position, we would not have 11 players on the field. It's that simple. Look at the teams around you, and they have 2 or 3 players per position, and each are top class internationals. We are not that fortunate.

 

People talk about Owen Coyle, but what has he done that is so impressive, other than jump ship and leave Burnley to sink?

 

Would it be a good idea to merge the 2 Moyes threads, so as to keep track of each conversation?

[StevO]

and improvising on the wings for ten years? thats not great is it?

my point is that in all his time here he has not addapted his formation or his style of play. he has bought and sold player after player and still not managed to find two wide players at the same time.

 

now i dont want him to go, i just want him to addapt.

[pete0]

 

I'm not being sarcastic when I say I'm not the guy to be discussing tactics with, but I will say that no matter what game plan you have, it's important that the pieces you move are up to the job. How can he use the same tactics with different players?

 

I don't see too much wrong with his tactics either to be fair.

 

We have 4 defenders, like most teams I know, and play 4-5-1, as a basic line up, with differences occasionally that are beyond my capacity as a poster to properly describe. We have our best players on the pitch, and the majority of them play in the correct position, with the exception of Moyes having to improvise the wings.

 

If we were to play every player in position, we would not have 11 players on the field. It's that simple. Look at the teams around you, and they have 2 or 3 players per position, and each are top class internationals. We are not that fortunate.

 

People talk about Owen Coyle, but what has he done that is so impressive, other than jump ship and leave Burnley to sink?

 

Would it be a good idea to merge the 2 Moyes threads, so as to keep track of each conversation?

Last season he played Arteta behind Fellaini, am still struggling to see why. He's plays Neville in midfield ahead of a lot of players which worries me. Cahill in centre midfield also baffled me. Not quite as bad as Walter Smith putting Watson upfront with Joe Max Moore on the bench, but he's getting there.

It's not that he plays the same formation every week, its that he also uses the same negative tactics and sticks with them till the 80th minute then changes to a system that works. But then doesn't learn and does exactly the same thing the following Saturday.

[Avinalaff]

and improvising on the wings for ten years? thats not great is it?

my point is that in all his time here he has not addapted his formation or his style of play. he has bought and sold player after player and still not managed to find two wide players at the same time.

 

now i dont want him to go, i just want him to addapt.

 

He doesn't have the money for wide players, so like every great manager he becomes resourceful. There are worse players on the wing in the Premiership than Coleman and Drenthe, even if they're not perfect.

 

Take a look at how much players cost Steve, and then figure out how much money we would need to put the players you want in the positions you feel they should play.

 

Then come back to me with a figure.

[Avinalaff]

Last season he played Arteta behind Fellaini, am still struggling to see why. He's plays Neville in midfield ahead of a lot of players which worries me. Cahill in centre midfield also baffled me. Not quite as bad as Walter Smith putting Watson upfront with Joe Max Moore on the bench, but he's getting there.

It's not that he plays the same formation every week, its that he also uses the same negative tactics and sticks with them till the 80th minute then changes to a system that works. But then doesn't learn and does exactly the same thing the following Saturday.

 

I'm not the person to discuss tactics Pete.

It's 30 years since I played football, and I'm not sure I received the wisdom of a professional coach too often.

[Hafnia]

 

He doesn't have the money for wide players, so like every great manager he becomes resourceful. There are worse players on the wing in the Premiership than Coleman and Drenthe, even if they're not perfect.

 

Take a look at how much players cost Steve, and then figure out how much money we would need to put the players you want in the positions you feel they should play.

 

Then come back to me with a figure.

 

Av He brough Billy at £10m - a central attacking midfielder and played him out wide where he has stunk the place out. He could have used that money a little more wisely maybe? He brought heitinga and distin when we had yobo, jags, lucas neil already, so maybe he just needed distin? Freeing up £7m for a second wide player?

 

Moyes collects defenders and neglects wingers and forwards

[pete0]

 

I'm not the person to discuss tactics Pete.

It's 30 years since I played football, and I'm not sure I received the wisdom of a professional coach too often.

It's not discussing the fine details of tactics, because there's obviously more than just formation and general style of play, adapting to the opposition or going out and forcing them to adapt to you, specific instructions to certain players ect. But the fact we obviously use the same tactics every game regardless of opposition which has made us very predictable and gives the other manager an easier job.

[StevO]

 

He doesn't have the money for wide players, so like every great manager he becomes resourceful. There are worse players on the wing in the Premiership than Coleman and Drenthe, even if they're not perfect.

 

Take a look at how much players cost Steve, and then figure out how much money we would need to put the players you want in the positions you feel they should play.

 

Then come back to me with a figure.

 

players do cost money yes, but moyes has spent circa £50m in his ten years and not managed to get them in.

[Matt]

It's not discussing the fine details of tactics, because there's obviously more than just formation and general style of play, adapting to the opposition or going out and forcing them to adapt to you, specific instructions to certain players ect. But the fact we obviously use the same tactics every game regardless of opposition which has made us very predictable and gives the other manager an easier job.

thats possible?! You must be wrong, theres only 451 and passing sideways for a bit, then backwards before hoofing it up to their CBs.....

[Avinalaff]

 

Av He brough Billy at £10m - a central attacking midfielder and played him out wide where he has stunk the place out. He could have used that money a little more wisely maybe? He brought heitinga and distin when we had yobo, jags, lucas neil already, so maybe he just needed distin? Freeing up £7m for a second wide player?

 

Moyes collects defenders and neglects wingers and forwards

 

Bily was a bad buy, but Moyes is human. Still, there is time for Bily to turn it around. It took years for some of our other players to reach fruition, hopefully Bily will find his feet soon.

[Avinalaff]

 

players do cost money yes, but moyes has spent circa £50m in his ten years and not managed to get them in.

 

Ste, some clubs spend that on one player.

 

I'd be interested to read your figures and where they came from though, as the guardian reckon it's 28.5m, which wouldn't buy you Lescott and one years wages.

[pete0]

thats possible?! You must be wrong, theres only 451 and passing sideways for a bit, then backwards before hoofing it up to their CBs.....

sadlaughingsmiley.jpg I remember when Unsworth used to be the main culprit for this, nothings really changed since Moyes took over has it?

[MikeO]

It took years for some of our other players to reach fruition, hopefully Bily will find his feet soon.

I'm struggling to think of anyone who was shite for two plus years and then came good, let alone an established international big money buy.

 

Have you got any examples?

[Hafnia]

 

Bily was a bad buy, but Moyes is human. Still, there is time for Bily to turn it around. It took years for some of our other players to reach fruition, hopefully Bily will find his feet soon.

 

 

You asked the question and there was your answer - Billy will never be a left winger and a £10m one at that. Moyes is very human, that is the whole point. For whatever reason you are trying to play Johnny Cocherane today Av and it's a little bit daft. Moyes can not be defended for his failing because of what he has done in the past that was good, it's a balance and at the moment the cons are getting a few extra pounds pushed on the scales.

 

Moyes has had 10 years to show some sort of tactical evolution it's not happening is it?

[Avinalaff]

 

 

You asked the question and there was your answer - Billy will never be a left winger and a £10m one at that. Moyes is very human, that is the whole point. For whatever reason you are trying to play Johnny Cocherane today Av and it's a little bit daft. Moyes can not be defended for his failing because of what he has done in the past that was good, it's a balance and at the moment the cons are getting a few extra pounds pushed on the scales.

 

Moyes has had 10 years to show some sort of tactical evolution it's not happening is it?

 

I'm not familiar with Johnny Cocherane to be honest Haf.

 

My stance has been fairly consistent throughout. I'll always look to back Moyes over those who want him sacked. I like the guy, he's been good for the club, and he's never had the chance to compete as other managers have.

 

If Moyes was sacked I'd lose interest in Everton football club very quickly. It would be a travesty.

[Hafnia]

 

I'm not familiar with Johnny Cocherane to be honest Haf.

 

My stance has been fairly consistent throughout. I'll always look to back Moyes over those who want him sacked. I like the guy, he's been good for the club, and he's never had the chance to compete as other managers have.

 

If Moyes was sacked I'd lose interest in Everton football club very quickly. It would be a travesty.

 

OK, i'm ok with where you stand, you are so different to me, Moyes is a custodian of the club, nothing more. The same way that Dixie Dean was - they are part of the clubs history and th is it, albeit Dixie was a legend unlikely we will see the likes of again, but yes Everton is the primary concern - not the employees or the owners.

[marcus jones]

 

If you can that would be ace - for £70k a week I would crawl there

 

Tell them a few things:

 

I promise to play to my strikers strengths - and maybe even work on a strike partnership

I won't play people out of position

I will drop players who are not in form

I will try and learn more than one formation

I will get the players to play at a high tempo

I will not bring a defender when chasing a game

I will find an assistant who can and will challenge me

I need a clapping smiley for this one Haf!