Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Avinalaff: Are you seriously claiming that just because you were in the stadium on match day that you, one person, is right, and everyone else, 5 or 6 people, are all wrong, even though they have seen a live stream, the game live on TV in America, all of the match stats (1 shot on target), the substitutions made, teamsheets and formation, live commentary and post match opinion from countless experts and past footballers? Are you seriously saying that David Moyes, a Premier League manager who has taken us to Europe on a budget repeatedly, is incapable of making sound judgements and taking what he believes to be the best actions on the sidelines (referring to your comment about how it isn't easy to make these judgements and decisions on the pitchside) as opposed to sitting in his living room or wherever else? I'm getting on a boat next Saturday afternoon, if I get off the boat to hear we've lost at home to Norwich, had no shots on target and lined up with the same old static midfield with Bily, Saha and Cahill again in the starting line up, am I not allowed to be angry at Moyes for picking the same players that have been ineffective all season? Just because I haven't seen the game? Furthermore, you've mentioned that "you don't see people inside the stadium calling for Moyes out". Actually, I haven't seen it much on here either. Maybe a couple of people have (rightfully) bemoaned moments like the Distin for Saha substitution on Saturday, Moyes' negative tactics, regardless of opposition, and the incessant insistence of playing Saha and Cahill to no effect week in, week out, when there are countless players on the bench who deserve their chance. I'm not calling for Moyes to be sacked - far from it - what he has done for us has been fantastic, and I have no doubt in his ability to put together another strong footballing side like he has done in the past, but just because he's been great for 9 years, doesn't mean everything he does is great. No manager is perfect, everybody is entitled to disagree with any particular decision a manager makes, all it does is prove that we care, we want to see our team do well and we want to have something to cheer about. Actually, I think we played alright against Arsenal, in that we almost managed a decent result, however at the same time this was more down to Howard, Hibbo and Johnny than any tactical genius from Moyes. Van Persie came up with one excellent goal, otherwise we would have got a point, which is a good result at a top 6 side. But, we haven't had a goalscoring opportunity worth mentioning for 180 minutes of football, and I don't believe that anybody who is happy with that as a football fan needs a good slapping. No. I questioned a guy who hadn't watched the match for criticising Moyes regarding the match. In my opinion, he jumped on the Moyes bashing band wagon. No, and not sure what you mean. I was defending Moyes. Do you actually read the posts in context with other posts? Feel free. Be sure to get your information from reliable sources though, rather than a forum full of crying arses who blame Moyes for lifes little problems. Opinions. We all like to discuss tactics. Your first few comments in your last sentence are fair enough, but the last few comments a bit childish to be honest. Edited December 11, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yeah . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Avin you've got bad brother!!! It reminds me of the Simpson's episodes when Millhouse goes off the rails... No more Mr.Nice Av! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Avin you've got bad brother!!! It reminds me of the Simpson's episodes when Millhouse goes off the rails... No more Mr.Nice Av! I just got fed up of the bandwagon jumpers Bro. Edited December 14, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Okay, yes I did read the whole thread, I just couldn't be arsed picking out quotes left, right and center. My second point was in relation to your comment a page or two back, you said something to the effect of "its easy for us to see these things, but not so easy for Moyes to make these decisions at pitchside" or whatever, to which my point was, he is a PL manager, he has taken us to Europe on a low budget repeatedly, he is perfectly capable of seeing that certain players aren't playing well and knowing which players he has on the pitch, and therefore perfectly capable of knowing that our defence didn't need tinkering with on Saturday, especially not at the expense of having an actual striker on the pitch, he was wrong to make that substitution in my opinion. If you would have done the same thing as him, fine, that's up to you.. Again, I don't think many people on here are crying and blaming Moyes for life's little problems, some people want him out, I disagree with them, they're over-reacting, in my opinion. But at the same time they are entitled to be upset to see their football team struggling, and entitled to react accordingly. They are also entitled, and in my opinion also correct, to question the manager's decisions on match day. And at the risk of sounding hypocritical, one thing I do find rather "childish" is the repeated technique of attempting to wind people up by calling them "childish" for their views on football, and making sarcastic comments about bed times and having school in the morning (not to mention calling people cunts and such a few pages back). We're here to talk about football, right? I'm not here to launch a personal attack on you or anyone, I just disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Okay, yes I did read the whole thread, I just couldn't be arsed picking out quotes left, right and center. My second point was in relation to your comment a page or two back, you said something to the effect of "its easy for us to see these things, but not so easy for Moyes to make these decisions at pitchside" or whatever, to which my point was, he is a PL manager, he has taken us to Europe on a low budget repeatedly, he is perfectly capable of seeing that certain players aren't playing well and knowing which players he has on the pitch, and therefore perfectly capable of knowing that our defence didn't need tinkering with on Saturday, especially not at the expense of having an actual striker on the pitch, he was wrong to make that substitution in my opinion. If you would have done the same thing as him, fine, that's up to you.. Again, I don't think many people on here are crying and blaming Moyes for life's little problems, some people want him out, I disagree with them, they're over-reacting, in my opinion. But at the same time they are entitled to be upset to see their football team struggling, and entitled to react accordingly. They are also entitled, and in my opinion also correct, to question the manager's decisions on match day. And at the risk of sounding hypocritical, one thing I do find rather "childish" is the repeated technique of attempting to wind people up by calling them "childish" for their views on football, and making sarcastic comments about bed times and having school in the morning (not to mention calling people cunts and such a few pages back). We're here to talk about football, right? I'm not here to launch a personal attack on you or anyone, I just disagree with you. It helps if you quote the post mate. Do that, and I'll be able to reply. Without it, not that easy. Also the 'childish' and 'school' thing was a bit of banter with Mike etc. Ok petal? Edited December 11, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yes, Moyes could do things differently on occasion, but it's easy for us to say what he should do on a forum. Doing it at pitch side is very different. All I'm saying is that a manager of his quality is meant to be able to do what he should do at pitch side. Kind of his job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 All I'm saying is that a manager of his quality is meant to be able to do what he should do at pitch side. Kind of his job... To be fair to Moyes bringing Distin on for Saha didn't lose us the game yesterday. A wonder goal did. 0-0 would have been a very good/ important point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 All I'm saying is that a manager of his quality is meant to be able to do what he should do at pitch side. Kind of his job... Quote the damn post for crying out loud. You'll see then that you have it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 To be fair to Moyes bringing Distin on for Saha didn't lose us the game yesterday. A wonder goal did. 0-0 would have been a very good/ important point. Ahhhhhh ... and the common sense crew finally arrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 All I'm saying is that a manager of his quality is meant to be able to do what he should do at pitch side. Kind of his job... I'll quote it for you, seeing as you seem a bit slow. I think fans don't look at the bigger picture. We have played great football under Moyes, but we are unable to do so at present, due to losing not one, but both, of our play makers, who also happened to be 2 of our best players. Fans feel that Moyes should be able to 'change' and we'll be playing great again. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: You can't take away major pieces on a chess board, and still win the chess game every week. Yes, Moyes could do things differently on occasion, but it's easy for us to say what he should do on a forum. Doing it at pitch side is very different. Give Moyes a top 4 side, and he will play top 4 football. Give him a bottom 4 side, and you can't expect silverware. Everton need more players, if Moyes is to have options. To turn on Moyes now, of all times, is piss poor, and that's why a few lads get on my tits. He has been great for us, and still, the board have been unable to back him. Be angry at the situation, but be angry at Moyes? Nah. Read it again, in it's proper context. I'll accept your grovelling apology in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 * Taps fingers in anticipation at said grovelling apology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 * Still tapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 *Looks at clock, yawns, taps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Edited December 11, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 * Tappety doo dah, tappety day .................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 * Goes to bed, tired and exhausted, fingers sore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Sigh, I don't see how reading the whole post actually changes your point, nor my reply. You can't defend a Premier league manager by saying "its more difficult to do it at pitch side than on an internet forum". He's paid to make the decisions at the sidelines and not on an internet forum, because he's the manager and that's what he's meant to be capable of doing. If you pay a plumber to fix your sink and he doesn't fix it, you wouldn't accept "it's more difficult for me to get under that sink and actually fix it than for you to talk about how you would fix it" as an excuse, would you? Besides, I feel that we are discussing a minor point and its details to an excruciating degree. I disagreed with the Saha Distin substitution, I never said it lost us the game, and just to clarify to both of you, I believe any Everton fan that expected us in this form and with this squad to be disappointed with a 1-0 defeat to Arsenal and van Persie would be absolutely deluded. What I am disappointed with is the inability of our team to fashion one goalscoring opportunity in 180 minutes of football. This is all actually in my original post if you read it fully, or was this the "childish" bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Sigh, I don't see how reading the whole post actually changes your point, nor my reply. You can't defend a Premier league manager by saying "its more difficult to do it at pitch side than on an internet forum". He's paid to make the decisions at the sidelines and not on an internet forum, because he's the manager and that's what he's meant to be capable of doing. If you pay a plumber to fix your sink and he doesn't fix it, you wouldn't accept "it's more difficult for me to get under that sink and actually fix it than for you to talk about how you would fix it" as an excuse, would you? Besides, I feel that we are discussing a minor point and its details to an excruciating degree. I disagreed with the Saha Distin substitution, I never said it lost us the game, and just to clarify to both of you, I believe any Everton fan that expected us in this form and with this squad to be disappointed with a 1-0 defeat to Arsenal and van Persie would be absolutely deluded. What I am disappointed with is the inability of our team to fashion one goalscoring opportunity in 180 minutes of football. This is all actually in my original post if you read it fully, or was this the "childish" bit? You can't make your mind up can you? Don't quote folk out of context. Take the quotes with you, so that everybody sees them in their relevant perspective. You have me totally lost I'm afraid. You misquoted me, and then changed your story. Which is it? Are you split personality? Avinalaff: Are you seriously claiming that just because you were in the stadium on match day that you, one person, is right, and everyone else, 5 or 6 people, are all wrong, even though they have seen a live stream, the game live on TV in America, all of the match stats (1 shot on target), the substitutions made, teamsheets and formation, live commentary and post match opinion from countless experts and past footballers? Are you seriously saying that David Moyes, a Premier League manager who has taken us to Europe on a budget repeatedly, is incapable of making sound judgements and taking what he believes to be the best actions on the sidelines (referring to your comment about how it isn't easy to make these judgements and decisions on the pitchside) as opposed to sitting in his living room or wherever else? I'm getting on a boat next Saturday afternoon, if I get off the boat to hear we've lost at home to Norwich, had no shots on target and lined up with the same old static midfield with Bily, Saha and Cahill again in the starting line up, am I not allowed to be angry at Moyes for picking the same players that have been ineffective all season? Just because I haven't seen the game? Furthermore, you've mentioned that "you don't see people inside the stadium calling for Moyes out". Actually, I haven't seen it much on here either. Maybe a couple of people have (rightfully) bemoaned moments like the Distin for Saha substitution on Saturday, Moyes' negative tactics, regardless of opposition, and the incessant insistence of playing Saha and Cahill to no effect week in, week out, when there are countless players on the bench who deserve their chance. I'm not calling for Moyes to be sacked - far from it - what he has done for us has been fantastic, and I have no doubt in his ability to put together another strong footballing side like he has done in the past, but just because he's been great for 9 years, doesn't mean everything he does is great. No manager is perfect, everybody is entitled to disagree with any particular decision a manager makes, all it does is prove that we care, we want to see our team do well and we want to have something to cheer about. Actually, I think we played alright against Arsenal, in that we almost managed a decent result, however at the same time this was more down to Howard, Hibbo and Johnny than any tactical genius from Moyes. Van Persie came up with one excellent goal, otherwise we would have got a point, which is a good result at a top 6 side. But, we haven't had a goalscoring opportunity worth mentioning for 180 minutes of football, and I don't believe that anybody who is happy with that as a football fan needs a good slapping. Edited December 11, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 The thing is in that 180mins we should have had more than 1 pen vs Stoke (Shawcross was at it again today)... and yesterday we fashioned enough chances, just the final ball more often than not was shite (usually from Bily) or the Arsenal (very tall) defence was getting their heads to it rather than EFC heads or the chances we did have were off target. We've played a lot worse than yesterday this season, it just so happens that it happened on the back of a game vs Stoke that we all expected to win and the fact that Moyes took our only striker off for a defender yet essentially kept the same system in doing so but ignoring the young half decent prospect in Velios who many of us believe would have been a better option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 I don't see how you're confused. Basically, my point is "Moyes is a top manager, he should be capable of getting things right on the side of the pitch, that's what he's paid to do. You can't really use the excuse that he has a hard job to defend him when he gets criticised, when he is paid a lot of money to do that job." It's a very minor and trivial point and I don't see how I can make myself more clear really. I just disagreed with that one statement. For the record I do agree with many of the things you've said. I agree that Moyes is still the right man for us, despite my personal disagreement with his tactics, I agree that we should get behind him and his players, I agree that people calling for him to be sacked are over-reacting, and I agree that we shouldn't be expecting miracles, wins at Arsenal and a place in the top 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 I don't see how you're confused. Basically, my point is "Moyes is a top manager, he should be capable of getting things right on the side of the pitch, that's what he's paid to do. You can't really use the excuse that he has a hard job to defend him when he gets criticised, when he is paid a lot of money to do that job." It's a very minor and trivial point and I don't see how I can make myself more clear really. I just disagreed with that one statement. For the record I do agree with many of the things you've said. I agree that Moyes is still the right man for us, despite my personal disagreement with his tactics, I agree that we should get behind him and his players, I agree that people calling for him to be sacked are over-reacting, and I agree that we shouldn't be expecting miracles, wins at Arsenal and a place in the top 6. Adz. We argue in this forum constantly. There is rarely ill feeling over it. The main thing that gets people going is the Moyes debate. Don't get too hung up over it. I defend Moyes, as he deserves better than he is getting. Yes, he makes a few decisions I disagree with, but we have done ok so far by letting him do what he feels is best, so I won't judge the guy now. Those who criticise him as a scapegoat, get on my tits. If folk are constructive, I'll debate it all day, but if they're just 'anti Moyes' like a few on here are, I have little time for it. Sometimes I even hope we get relegated just to spite them. Just kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 The people dont look far into his tactics enough, all they see is striker off... defender on... How about this: Saha was ineffective so he came off, he was ineffective because he could not win the areal duels. We have Fellaini and tall, strong player that can win balls, but if we move him and dont replace him we will lose the midfield battles. So there is Heitinga, a strong tackler and a good distibuter who replaces him. So now there is a hole in our defense so put distin in there. Then you might say, Why not put in Vellios? Well last week he could not win against the Stoke defenders so this would not be any different. There... That is probably what Moyes was thinking and if not then he had something else in mind or he is insane :/ (which he probably is not because he has made us a European place contender for the past 4 years +) He knows what he is doing and he is the best man for the job. If anybody posted anything similar I am sorry for repeating but I just dont have the time to read all the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegwolf203 Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Av, you're right about people, including myself, perhaps reacting too quickly. While my original post was fueled by what I had just seen, it is still my opinion-no bandwagon involved. I don't want Moyes gone, but I would like to see something different, just anything, because at this point I'd at least get excited with a simple roll of the dice. Maybe the cup is the venue we'll see it? For the record, I thought Heitinga was doing well against Van Persie, moving him away from marking him changed things a bit. Like someone has already stated, if the Norwich match is executed in another Groundhog Day fashion, I may be a bit peeved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 The moyes bandwagon eh. Take your pick they are all circled ready for an attack in a tidy 4-6-0 formation "Reet lads, today we are playing Norwich. A top team who play attacking football, with pace and creativity - going the same as last week, they haven't got Robin Van Persie so we've got a chance of getting a point here" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Haf, change your Display pic to something like - You're more recognisable then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 oh my god, what an absolute waist of three pages of forum with absolute crap! half of the posts are about as useful as moyes maing a substitution, the other half as useful as saha's cramped up calfs. nice one, i cant get the last half hour of my life back. some people need to have a think if they can actually be bothered with the hassle of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Haf, change your Display pic to something like - You're more recognisable then All done! - Great suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohen Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 oh my god, what an absolute waist of three pages of forum with absolute crap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 All done! - Great suggestion Sweet! Now i can determine your posts by quick glances...sometimes i skim-read posts and don't note who they're from (unless its of interest) so DP's help to quickly distinguish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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