Hafnia Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 This is spot on, but unfortunately not all fans have a brain, they'll see Stoke or Sunderland buy someone for 10 mil then kick up a fuss anyway Do they really need to worry about that? I think the fans they need to worry about are the ones who arm themselves with information and are far more savvy than they give them credit for. The majority of fans know we are skint and to a point can accept that we can't buy players - the problem is the people behind the running of the club who lie and insult the intelligence of these fans. That is what really creates a storm of hatred as more important issues such as the sale of the club can not be trusted in the hands of those who can't tell the truth. I do not trust those running the club, simple as that, and this is one of the reasons why. They are predictable, amateur and out of their depth and need to go. Soon enough those who stood clapping Kenwrights mugshot at the Villa game will shudder with embarrasment - the man has so many fooled and I think his days are numbered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 They don't WANT to say "the money's paying off the debts" because they are trying to sell the club and don't want it to become a distress sale (which it's close to being) They don't want to reveal the true mess they are in, to put it bluntly. Any interest they have mustered is no more than a polite 'whiff' of the club (since any serious potential of an offer would require the shareholders to be formally notified).... note 'potential' (not a formal offer). If there is reasonable cause to suspect an interested buyer, there's a legal obligation for the shareholders to be notified. It reeks of the board not wanting to actually lose their own money, and discovering they can't sell the club without doing so, since the price of the club is too high. God only knows how many long term agreements the club are entered into.... 50 year lease on Finch Farm is just one example. There could be many other commitments the club are under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 In 2002, the board sanctioned spening near £20m on transfers because they were expecting to sign a media deal with a cable company. The deal was never signed, so the club took out a loan repayable over 25 years to cover it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I agree with Hafnia. It makes me think of a car with Everton fans as the passengers and Bill as the driver. The car is way out of control and the fans are arguing about how to avoid a crashing and they're each telling Bill 'do this' or 'do that'. All the while they fail to recognise the driver himself is pissed, and simply not capable of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzp7zy Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I've done some basic maths based on who's come and gone in 2011. I've tried to be fair and reasonable to the club in the assumptions I've made. Out - Arteta, Yakubu, Beckford, Vaughan, Pienaar, Yobo, Turner. This amounts to approx 19m income from transfer fees. I don't know what players each are paid but I'd estimate that the reduction in salaries is circa 12m per year. For sales, I'm assuming the club have 19m in fees and reduced running costs by 12m/year. In - Donovan, Hahnemann, McFadden, Drenthe, Stracqualursi, Vellios. Including loan and signing-on fees we can assume that has cost us approx 3m. Plus wage costs of approx 6.5m. We also extended Fellaini's contract which will have cost (maybe??) 1.5m signing on fee and an additional 1m/year. Add all this up and the club should have from player transactions alone - 14.5m from transfer fees and reduced the annual wage bill by 4.5m. Given that last years operating loss was circa 4m we should be back on an even keel and seen 14m come off the debt? Even if some of the fees are paid in instalments, we can assume that as we have not paid a significant fee for a player for more than 2 years, then we aren't still paying out significant sums in transfer fee instalments? If our MD and Finance Director are better than me with numbers (please God, lets hope so) then a proportion of the money would be put towards keeping the Bank happy with several million left for some player dealings? Edited January 11, 2012 by SharpysVolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 In 2002, the board sanctioned spening near £20m on transfers because they were expecting to sign a media deal with a cable company. The deal was never signed, so the club took out a loan repayable over 25 years to cover it. Whilst that NTL deal may be 100% accurate, or slightly wrong... (I don't know), it's still an appalling situation. I keep SCREAMING this: - We aren't talking Portsmouth here... we are talking about one of the all time greats / big clubs. (Top 10 if you're being harsh, and top 5-7 if you're being fair) - The club has NOT been short of revenue. It's had some of the better revenues in the PL and at one time was stated as being in the top 20 in Europe. - The club hasn't spent on a new ground - so there's no massive outgoing in (say) the way Arsenal are paying for their stadium - The club hasn't spent prolifically, and many would argue it's been extremely frugal. So there can be no accusations of big signings, mega wages etc - The club has sold a number of leading players for fairly significant sums, with a number of them being at a significant profit. - The club has had impressive crowds, certainly well above average. So it can't be argued that you're not getting gate receipts So all in all, it's very hard to see how you CAN be in such a state. Sure, you're not Man U, and you're not funded by a billionaire, but you're comparable with Spurs, Villa, Newcastle etc in terms of 'facilities available'. What more does it take for fans to see that the board have FAILED? Monumentally. WHERE THE HELL HAS THE MONEY BEEN GOING? Cos if they can't make a profit with the above, then they shoudn't be in business at all, let alone the football business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzp7zy Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 They don't WANT to say "the money's paying off the debts" because they are trying to sell the club and don't want it to become a distress sale (which it's close to being) They don't want to reveal the true mess they are in, to put it bluntly. Any interest they have mustered is no more than a polite 'whiff' of the club (since any serious potential of an offer would require the shareholders to be formally notified).... note 'potential' (not a formal offer). If there is reasonable cause to suspect an interested buyer, there's a legal obligation for the shareholders to be notified. It reeks of the board not wanting to actually lose their own money, and discovering they can't sell the club without doing so, since the price of the club is too high. God only knows how many long term agreements the club are entered into.... 50 year lease on Finch Farm is just one example. There could be many other commitments the club are under. These points would come out in any due diligence, so largely irrelevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 These points would come out in any due diligence, so largely irrelevant Due Diligence would only occur in a friendly takeover not a hostile one. Of course Everton appear to be seeking a friendly one. But even so, one does not air their dirty laundry PRIOR to a sale. They attract suitors first, then negotiate. It's far better to know who is 'remotely' interested then focus efforts on selling yourself to them than to reveal all your problems upfront and attract nobody at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Mike - I'd be interested to hear your views on this because you don't think Kenwright is a liar, and I respect your views and opinions. If the bank had forced the sale then surely it would have gone through earlier....not at 11.55 on deadline day or whatever time it was. Moyes has said... "I got a call from the chairman at 3pm on deadline day, and at one minute past three Mikel was knocking on my door. He was in my office saying he wanted to go - it was a very difficult situation." I don't for a moment think the bank forced the sale, which is what people are implying (unless they had Mikel on their payroll). For sure once they knew we had the money they'd have wanted a (probably considerable) slice of it and it was then down to the people in charge to negotiate what went and what we could keep. Did Bill ever specify when he said that Moyes would be backed that it would be the Arteta money? DM is saying in this latest interview, "I don't think" and "it's unlikely" which isn't quite the same as "no." Also... “I think everybody knew at the time that the bank wanted the money." Well everyone knew the bank wanted to reduce the debt and everyone knew we had £10m coming in so it's not much of a stretch to work out that the bank would want a cut. January's a long way from over, maybe we'll spend some money, maybe we won't; maybe Davey will be offered £5/3/1.5m or 50p and decide it's not enough to get what he wants. Too early and too little information yet to come to the definitive conclusion that the club has lied imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't think for a moment the bank forced the sale either. In fact, I don't believe they have the power to do so. What I DO believe though is that they have a noose around the club's neck and are entitled to their money back. In layman's terms.... Banks to Everton "You run your business as you see fit, but you OWE us the money and we WILL get it back" Everton to Banks "We're struggling as it is with all the interest payments" Banks to Everton "We're very sorry to hear that. We look forward to your next payment at the end of the month as usual" It's that simple. The banks aren't calling the shots directly, but there are very few ways the club can pay them off... and selling the players is the most practical" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 BK lied when he told the Blue Union... "I don't know where the money's going" he said it repeatedly. 10 minutes later he said "all our money's going to the banks". If you put a generous slant on that, he didn't "lie" he was simply confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigb Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 off topic but in the same article moyes mentions whether both officials for the spurs/villa games would have got these games if we were at home.. I think not ! That PGMO are a bunch of tools aswell!! Also i'm a fan that loves the club but has never stuck up for Bill nor went against him, i'm here to support the club and whatever happens, happens, but most recently i am becoming fed up with the lies and betrayal we are seeing from the top members of our club, it needs to be stopped sooner or later because we will only get weaker and weaker each season, its a shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Do they really need to worry about that? I think the fans they need to worry about are the ones who arm themselves with information and are far more savvy than they give them credit for. The majority of fans know we are skint and to a point can accept that we can't buy players - the problem is the people behind the running of the club who lie and insult the intelligence of these fans. That is what really creates a storm of hatred as more important issues such as the sale of the club can not be trusted in the hands of those who can't tell the truth. I do not trust those running the club, simple as that, and this is one of the reasons why. They are predictable, amateur and out of their depth and need to go. Soon enough those who stood clapping Kenwrights mugshot at the Villa game will shudder with embarrasment - the man has so many fooled and I think his days are numbered. Would you rather the blue union took over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Due Diligence would only occur in a friendly takeover not a hostile one. Of course Everton appear to be seeking a friendly one. But even so, one does not air their dirty laundry PRIOR to a sale. They attract suitors first, then negotiate. It's far better to know who is 'remotely' interested then focus efforts on selling yourself to them than to reveal all your problems upfront and attract nobody at all. Due dilligence is a part of any business purchase however it is acquired. Given we are not registered on the LSE we couldnt be subject of a hostile takeover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Would you rather the blue union took over? where or when has the 'blue union' taking over Everton been mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Would you rather the blue union took over? I dont think they have ever said they could run the club. To be honest, I don't think they could do a worse job than the current shower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 where or when has the 'blue union' taking over Everton been mentioned? The majority(not you) of the anti-Bill brigade are brain dead(BU and the recent youtube clip) and dont understand why we cant spend the full Arteta money and need these half-truths to shut them up and prevent them from kicking up fuss and ruining the club. So what would you're alternative be than Bill? because imo he's doing a good job, better than most if you look at the clubs round us they've all received injections of investment that is never gonna be repaid back Chelsea(billionaire), Stoke(Bet365 investment and cleared debts), City(billionaire), Liverpool(debt wiped by takeover), Fulham(billionaire). Non of these would work with out unjustified investment, they would not stand alone. Man u even struggled but has the freak advantage of their fan base which they issued bonds to. The only club that is run better than us is Arsenal and even they struggle to keep their best players with the billionaires bank-rolling. We should all be moaning to the governing bodies in football allowing the competition in football to be based on the wealth of the chairman rather than the youth system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I dont think they have ever said they could run the club. To be honest, I don't think they could do a worse job than the current shower. They'd pay Pienaar 70 grand a week and give Moyes all funds from player sales, we'd be under within a year. BU are a bunch of numpties who have no financial understanding, the type of people who get a new credit card to pay of the old one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm not into the BU as I have never really "read into it" as such Pete but you can't make such silly assumptions. Anyhow this thread will go sideways if you go down that road. In short I think BlueSky sums it up for me with his pissed driver analogy pretty well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would say that the blue union have members with far more financial understanding than kenwright. http://peoplesgroup.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/the_blue_union_update_01.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 They'd pay Pienaar 70 grand a week and give Moyes all funds from player sales, we'd be under within a year. BU are a bunch of numpties who have no financial understanding, the type of people who get a new credit card to pay of the old one I know you are against them Pete, but your idea of how ignorant you think they may be actually makes you ignorant. Have you actually researched the handful of men who are the BU, not their supporters, the actual guys who make up the group? To dismiss them as having no financial understanding is just ridiculous. I'm going to assume that you haven't looked into their work. I'm also going to assume that you didn't notice that when they didn't know things, they went and found experts in the relevant fields for assistance. You may not be a fan, but you might want to actually take a look the them before you just make judgement based on their supporters. You will know less about them that you do about me, i've been posting on here for years, yet you know nothing of any knowledge or skills I have. I could be a chartered accountant, but then Barry Jones could be an architect, Simon Magner could be a financial director and Mark Jones could be a brain surgeon. I'm not having a go, but I just find from most of your posts about the BU that you seem to either confuse the BU with their supporters, or just dont know anything about them at all. I'm neither for or against them, but I dont see fit to judge them. But thats just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would say that the blue union have members with far more financial understanding than kenwright. http://peoplesgroup....n_update_01.pdf Everton squad value '99 is 29 mil, 2010 is 33 mil Spurs squad value '99 is 28 mil, 2010 is 116 mil No explanation just thats whats on the spread sheets. How does comparing us to Spurs say anythink? Looking at the comparision the only reasonable thing to do would be to move to London, but they objected to Kirkby so cant see them agreeing to that. Also moan about not having a new stadium, opportunity comes for a new stadium and they rally to stay at Goodison. Also do their best to not hump praise on Finch Farm and our youth system. Give credit were it is due and the club is doing amazingly well as all their cock ups are outweighed by the fact we're still in the league alone. I know you are against them Pete, but your idea of how ignorant you think they may be actually makes you ignorant. Have you actually researched the handful of men who are the BU, not their supporters, the actual guys who make up the group? To dismiss them as having no financial understanding is just ridiculous. I'm going to assume that you haven't looked into their work. I'm also going to assume that you didn't notice that when they didn't know things, they went and found experts in the relevant fields for assistance. You may not be a fan, but you might want to actually take a look the them before you just make judgement based on their supporters. You will know less about them that you do about me, i've been posting on here for years, yet you know nothing of any knowledge or skills I have. I could be a chartered accountant, but then Barry Jones could be an architect, Simon Magner could be a financial director and Mark Jones could be a brain surgeon. I'm not having a go, but I just find from most of your posts about the BU that you seem to either confuse the BU with their supporters, or just dont know anything about them at all. I'm neither for or against them, but I dont see fit to judge them. But thats just my opinion. They obviously get their mate to gloss over there statements and reports, which makes them less trustable. Some of stuff is like reading an angry letter thats had some one go over it and take the swear words out. I'd say am more annoyed than ignorant. They drag the clubs name through mud, thinking that they no whats best for the club. You would have to be pretty arrogant to believe you and a bunch of your mates know whats best and their plan of 'get professionals in' is much like get Bill out->???->problem solved, isn't very sound proof to me. "The Blue Union are campaigning for change; we want to see professionals conducting that change. The current board has brought the club to its knees the spin and the misinformation no longer hides the fact. We don’t want Everton to become another Portsmouth, another West Ham, Leeds, Coventry, Blackburn; doing nothing now will facilitate that, we want to remove from the sale process the common factor that has caused catastrophic failure at Everton on many occasions." Am sure all the clubs mentioned had a team of professionals doing their best. Who do they suggest? no one, basically they want Bill out because he's not bank-rolling us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you dont see the issue is much bigger then Bill then i'm very surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you dont see the issue is much bigger then Bill then i'm very surprised. Some people don't want to see the big picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Que the Jessep quote.... Edited January 11, 2012 by EFC-Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I saw this elsewhere, It's a response from Liverpool Echo's John Thompson to someone's (I don't know) email. "The comments you refer to from David Moyes are carried extremely prominently on the back page of the Liverpool Echo and also the Daily Post today. The matter is therefore hardly ignored or being down played by us. In fact I'd contend that we have given it more prominence - quite rightly - than any other newspaper or media outlet thus far. David Moyes' comments would to some degree at least seem to be at variance with what we printed in September, and which we apologised for after extremely strong representations from the club's hierarchy who were keen to stress Arteta's sale had not been forced to fulfill immediate demands of any banking institution. And that we had erred. As you might expect, I am dealing with that issue now given the turn of events to clarify just what the truth of these matters is. As for the Chairman's proclamation that some money will be available for transfers - again a story we published and covered in the Echo - while I understand the grave concerns Everton fans have over available transfer cash, it is with respect still mid January and therefore there is still technically time in the January window for that pledge to be fulfilled. We shall see. With regards to the incident when fans questioned the chairman upon his arrival at Goodison last week, that footage, with some introductory words, was carried prominently on the Echo's website over the weekend. And is still there to be viewed. Again therefore, we've hardly ignored it. Finally, you suggest we 'owe' the current regime - presumably a reference to the leaked email exchanges late last year involving a senior executive of the club who has now left EFC's employ. As I have stressed to others before, just because someone in any organisation suggests that the Liverpool Echo 'owes them' something, it absolutely does not mean that that assertion is true or we accept that is the case for one single moment. And you and others are wholly wrong as such to conclude our compliance and agreement with such a statement. I know we have our critics at times and we listen to them all with regard and respect. But rest assured we remain firmly committed to addressing the issues which concern ordinary fans of our local clubs. We are constantly asking robust and pertinent questions to provide readers with a full as picture as possible on all matters EFC. But obviously, sometimes we are more successful than at other times in receiving the answers we would like. We will continue doing our level best to update supporters on matters of genuine and understandable concern. And analyse and comment without fear or favour, as we see fit. I hope that helps answer your points Martin. Regards, John" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the bank had forced the sale then surely it would have gone through earlier....not at 11.55 on deadline day or whatever time it was. Moyes has said... "I got a call from the chairman at 3pm on deadline day, and at one minute past three Mikel was knocking on my door. He was in my office saying he wanted to go - it was a very difficult situation." I don't for a moment think the bank forced the sale, which is what people are implying (unless they had Mikel on their payroll). For sure once they knew we had the money they'd have wanted a (probably considerable) slice of it and it was then down to the people in charge to negotiate what went and what we could keep. Did Bill ever specify when he said that Moyes would be backed that it would be the Arteta money? DM is saying in this latest interview, "I don't think" and "it's unlikely" which isn't quite the same as "no." Also... “I think everybody knew at the time that the bank wanted the money." Well everyone knew the bank wanted to reduce the debt and everyone knew we had £10m coming in so it's not much of a stretch to work out that the bank would want a cut. January's a long way from over, maybe we'll spend some money, maybe we won't; maybe Davey will be offered £5/3/1.5m or 50p and decide it's not enough to get what he wants. Too early and too little information yet to come to the definitive conclusion that the club has lied imo. Thanks for that, Mike . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie HKR Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 we need a massive clearout at the end of the season to many players look disintrested or just arent good enough im affraid as for this transfer window we might as well forget about it we wont win nowt and we should just about be good enough to stay up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 we need a massive clearout at the end of the season to many players look disintrested or just arent good enough im affraid as for this transfer window we might as well forget about it we wont win nowt and we should just about be good enough to stay up Bold statement there Archie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) We need money plain and simple mate a clear-out would do no good as ther are only a few "if that" truely valuable players at this club and thats going of the assumptions that clubs would pay big money for the likes of Rodwell & possibly Ross in a season or so. We would sell recoup next to fcuk all in todays market and have enough to buy a packet of crips and a copy of Razzle.... I honestly cannot see anything changing unless the board some how aquire funds for DM and by that we need at least 30M to make a decent difference or we get bought out and sadly both seem a million miles away. It's worrying either way you look at it as we have looked shite against teams we should be beating let alone rolling over and getting played of the park against. Tonight's game just illustrates for me how far we have fallen behind and will continue to do so... Edited January 11, 2012 by EFC-Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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