Newty82 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Martinez not long ago said something about stats being misleading. I'm sure this was to do with Goals Conceded and our defence. He's been questioned on it week after week. And rightly so, some might say. He says it's not his 'main concern' or 'priority'. What he says can easily be blown out of proportion by those who dislike him, especially with all these stats flying around. Maybe he's right not to be shitting himself? We have been dodgy at the back, no doubt. So many individual errors etc etc. But take out those first 3 games, when we conceded 10 (those first 3 that I believe set the tone for the season so far), and compare every team defensively for the next 18 games... Soton 12 Chelsea 15 Man City 18 Man Utd 18 West ham 20 Arsenal 21 Villa 22 L'Pool 23 C Palace 23 EVERTON 24 Swansea 24 West Brom 24 Hull City 24 Stoke 25 Spurs 26 Sunderland 27 Leicester 28 Newcastle 28 Burnley 29 QPR 32 The 'picture' ain't as bad. This is only in response to the questions about his supposedly ignoring the defensive side of things for the last few posts. As said, while he knows it isn't ideal and is still below par, it ain't 'as bad as that'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Martinez not long ago said something about stats being misleading. I'm sure this was to do with Goals Conceded and our defence. He's been questioned on it week after week. And rightly so, some might say. He says it's not his 'main concern' or 'priority'. What he says can easily be blown out of proportion by those who dislike him, especially with all these stats flying around. Maybe he's right not to be shitting himself? We have been dodgy at the back, no doubt. So many individual errors etc etc. But take out those first 3 games, when we conceded 10 (those first 3 that I believe set the tone for the season so far), and compare every team defensively for the next 18 games... Soton 12 Chelsea 15 Man City 18 Man Utd 18 West ham 20 Arsenal 21 Villa 22 L'Pool 23 C Palace 23 EVERTON 24 Swansea 24 West Brom 24 Hull City 24 Stoke 25 Spurs 26 Sunderland 27 Leicester 28 Newcastle 28 Burnley 29 QPR 32 The 'picture' ain't as bad. This is only in response to the questions about his supposedly ignoring the defensive side of things for the last few posts. As said, while he knows it isn't ideal and is still below par, it ain't 'as bad as that'. Lol I see what you mean, if we take 14% of our games out of the equation we dont seem that bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Lol I see what you mean, if we take 14% of our games out of the equation we dont seem that bad Ha! Yeah, take the first 14% of games out and we have conceded 29% less goals!!! All is ok now!!! You know what I mean. And it's only in reference to how Martinez is handling questions about 'defensive stats' or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Lol I see what you mean, if we take 14% of our games out of the equation we dont seem that bad Makes more sense than many stats quoted on here; pass completions rates, passes made, tackles made, distance run, average size of dick; it's all nonsense and it drives me insane that people try to prove their points by it it. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" is so true. I accept (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that I use stats from time to time to make a point but I always try to use tangible ones rather than the nebulous crap spouted by organisations like Opta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Martinez not long ago said something about stats being misleading. I'm sure this was to do with Goals Conceded and our defence. He's been questioned on it week after week. And rightly so, some might say. He says it's not his 'main concern' or 'priority'. What he says can easily be blown out of proportion by those who dislike him, especially with all these stats flying around. Maybe he's right not to be shitting himself? We have been dodgy at the back, no doubt. So many individual errors etc etc. But take out those first 3 games, when we conceded 10 (those first 3 that I believe set the tone for the season so far), and compare every team defensively for the next 18 games... Soton 12 Chelsea 15 Man City 18 Man Utd 18 West ham 20 Arsenal 21 Villa 22 L'Pool 23 C Palace 23 EVERTON 24 Swansea 24 West Brom 24 Hull City 24 Stoke 25 Spurs 26 Sunderland 27 Leicester 28 Newcastle 28 Burnley 29 QPR 32 The 'picture' ain't as bad. This is only in response to the questions about his supposedly ignoring the defensive side of things for the last few posts. As said, while he knows it isn't ideal and is still below par, it ain't 'as bad as that'. Hmmmm yeh let's ignore 3 games... Even when ignored - we're still in and around the shit sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Makes more sense than many stats quoted on here; pass completions rates, passes made, tackles made, distance run, average size of dick; it's all nonsense and it drives me insane that people try to prove their points by it it. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" is so true. I accept (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that I use stats from time to time to make a point but I always try to use tangible ones rather than the nebulous crap spouted by organisations like Opta. It is true. More often than not what you perceive to be true is right based on your eyes and judgement. The thing that stats do is stop people lying to themselves. Sometimes someone will try and praise their favourite player or criticise someone without real reason. The stats can stop that. The biggest stat I want to see is Everton win rate with and without James McCarthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) It is true. More often than not what you perceive to be true is right based on your eyes and judgement. The thing that stats do is stop people lying to themselves. Sometimes someone will try and praise their favourite player or criticise someone without real reason. The stats can stop that. The biggest stat I want to see is Everton win rate with and without James McCarthy. I know we lost one because of him. Stoke at home. He's played in 13 premier league games this season. We've won 4. Win rate is about 30% Edited January 17, 2015 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Makes more sense than many stats quoted on here; pass completions rates, passes made, tackles made, distance run, average size of dick; it's all nonsense and it drives me insane that people try to prove their points by it it. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" is so true. I accept (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that I use stats from time to time to make a point but I always try to use tangible ones rather than the nebulous crap spouted by organisations like Opta. I'm with you, I never use stats because they are misleading and can be turned to suit different points of view. I don'rt even read post that quote them. I use my eyes and I see it as I watch it. I don't need stats to change or re-enforcey point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Makes more sense than many stats quoted on here; pass completions rates, passes made, tackles made, distance run, average size of dick; it's all nonsense and it drives me insane that people try to prove their points by it it. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" is so true. I accept (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that I use stats from time to time to make a point but I always try to use tangible ones rather than the nebulous crap spouted by organisations like Opta. Spot on ! Statistics, certainly within football are waste of time, total job creation, to be spouted by idiots when they have nothing else to say! Player x covers 7 miles during a game, which is better than player y who covers 5.Thing is the stats don't tell you player x had his finger up his arse for 3 miles and didn't make one usefull contribution to the game.Thing is he most be better than y because of distance covered. Another well spouted stat is passes made, player x made 28 during a game, player y made 56, no mention of length of pass, quality of pass, was he under pressure when he made it, did it lead to anything !! Headers won during a match !.....how close was the defender, was he fouling him, how good was the cross/pass, sun in his eyes, strong wind.....it's endless. Shankley, clough etc would probably be able to show certain people what they could do with their list of stats! I don't want the stats from Mondays game against WBA, I want 3 points, I just want to see my team put in 100%. Though I'm sure someone will tell me that according to stats most will only put in about 72% Edited January 17, 2015 by Blue 250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I know we lost one because of him. Stoke at home. He's played in 13 premier league games this season. We've won 4. Win rate is about 30% Oh dear oh dear, your speed to want to maybe minismize the importance of McCarthy to our team has led to me doing some research, now forgive me if I post this again elsewhere but it really is telling. In every game be it cup or not I have applied 3 points for a win and if he never played more than 45 minutes then I never counted it. OK lets get to it:- He has played 13 games where he has played +45 minutes and there are 13 games where he never played or didn't complete more than 45 minutes. So its a good sample size. In the 13 games he has featured as per criteria above. We have won 23 points - 1.76 per game. In the 13 games he never featured we have won 9 points - 0.69 per game. In the 13 games he featured we scored 28 goals - 2.15 per game. In the games he never we scored 11 goals - 0.84 per game In the 13 games he featured we conceded 18 goals - 1.38 per game. The games he didnt play we conceded 19. top and bottom, of it MC is he is soooooo important to us, Edited January 17, 2015 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 mionutes Oh dear oh dear, your speed to want to maybe minismize the importance of McCarthy to mour team has led to ,me doing some research, now forgive me if I post this again but it really is telling. In every game be it cup or not I have applied 3 points for a win and if he never played more than 45 minutes then I counted it. OK lets get to it:- He has played 13 games where he has played +45 minutes and there are 13 games where he never played or didn't complete more than 45 minutes. So its a good sample size. In the 13 games he has featured as per criteria above. We have won 23 points - 1.76 per game. In the 13 games he never featured we have won 9 points - 0.69 per game. In the 13 games he featured we scored 28 goals - 2.15 per game. In the games he never we scored 11 goals - 0.84 per game In the 13 games he featured we conceded 18 goals - 1.38 per game. The games he didnt play we conceded 19. top and bottom, of it MC is he is soooooo important to us, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Explain.... I mean everyone I likes to think they know the reasons why and why not we do well or not so well. We have a player who we have a 50/50 split with and without and the Points earned with and goals scored are a massive difference. Is it that you don't understand it? Edited January 17, 2015 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hmmmm yeh let's ignore 3 games... Even when ignored - we're still in and around the shit sides. As said clearly in my last 2 posts...It is only in relevance to why Martinez MIGHT be answering questions regarding defensive stats etc with a bit of disdain. It wasn't aimed at trying to 'cover up' where we are in the league, our performances etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Generalising the entire season based on one person is ridiculous. I forgot it was a one man game. There are SO MANY other factors to consider when discussing the points we've picked up. We've played our best football this season in the last 3 games and I haven't heard anyone calling for McCarthy. Players like Besic have come in and have grown into the team. I think your stats do tell a story. That we are no worse or better without him. He's a defensive player who offers little in the final third, yet you think we score more because of him. He's a defensive player and we're conceding just as many goals with him in or out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 I must admit I kind of like stats...within reason. You see, I can forget things quite quickly. My memory is quite poor. So a 'stat' for me, for example looking at Kev Mirallas goals etc, reminds me how important he is. Sometimes a stat is useful. I like looking at numbers etc. I don't know why. Maybe because I have to as a manager...salary, sales, items, sign ups etc etc. I don't know. But like any number, they can be manipulated to your favour. So a lot out there with Opta is to be taken lightly. We can use our own eyes, mind etc to make an opinion, but that opinion usually contains a prejudice that we have already decided on. Sometimes a stat will prove us wrong. I think you have to balance it out a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Haf is using points totals with or without McCarthy, but is totally disregarding other factors. Such as other key players missing in those lost. Key players playing in those games won. Quality of opposition, individual errors etc etc. you could go on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Generalising the entire season based on one person is ridiculous. I forgot it was a one man game. There are SO MANY other factors to consider when discussing the points we've picked up. We've played our best football this season in the last 3 games and I haven't heard anyone calling for McCarthy. Players like Besic have come in and have grown into the team. I think your stats do tell a story. That we are no worse or better without him. He's a defensive player who offers little in the final third, yet you think we score more because of him. He's a defensive player and we're conceding just as many goals with him in or out. Generalising??? It's been clear as day to people who can follow the game that he is a massive miss for us. These stats prove it. As an electrician do you ignore your diagnostic equipment say if they contradict what you thought you knew??? It's not even a slight difference in results with and without McCarthy, its top half versus relegation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Explain.... I mean everyone I likes to think they know the reasons why and why not we do well or not so well. We have a player who we have a 50/50 split with and without and the Points earned with and goals scored are a massive difference. Is it that you don't understand it? Just go back a few posts before this one! Stats NEVER show the full picture. Just in case you don't undertand I'll put my other post below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Spot on ! Statistics, certainly within football are waste of time, total job creation, to be spouted by idiots when they have nothing else to say! Player x covers 7 miles during a game, which is better than player y who covers 5.Thing is the stats don't tell you player x had his finger up his arse for 3 miles and didn't make one usefull contribution to the game.Thing is he most be better than y because of distance covered. Another well spouted stat is passes made, player x made 28 during a game, player y made 56, no mention of length of pass, quality of pass, was he under pressure when he made it, did it lead to anything !! Headers won during a match !.....how close was the defender, was he fouling him, how good was the cross/pass, sun in his eyes, strong wind.....it's endless. Shankley, clough etc would probably be able to show certain people what they could do with their list of stats! I don't want the stats from Mondays game against WBA, I want 3 points, I just want to see my team put in 100%. Though I'm sure someone will tell me that according to stats most will only put in about 72% This one ! Hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Here's the only games we've lost with McCarthy out: United away Spurs away City away Southampton away Hull away You could say they are all (bar hull) tough fixtures with our strongest team anyway! The other games he's missed: Hull Home - 1 point QPR Home - 3 points City Home - 1 point. Edited January 18, 2015 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Here's the only games we've lost with McCarthy out: United away Spurs away City away Southampton away Hull away You could say they are all (bar hull) tough fixtures with our strongest team anyway! What about the games we didn't win without him.... Come on MC I can do this all day long. I'm currently in Costa coffee enjoying a caramel latte but will gladly share the excel file I made to analyse this. It really is critical. The inclusion or exclusion of McCarthy in our side has a paramount effect on our results. Quite simply win more games with him, without him we draw and lose too many. It's that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) This one ! Hope it helps. No offense mate but that's just waffle if I'm honest. Why do F1 TEAMS spend millions on diagnostic s??? Edited January 17, 2015 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 No offense mate but that's just waffle if I'm honest. Why do F1 TEAMS spend millions on diagnostic s??? It's your stats that are waffle, read the couple of posts before this one was posted.Sure you can apply stats to friggin machines (F1) but not to footballers. Try and explain how some of my examples fall to pieces, your whole arguement/examples of stats are flawed. F1........diagnostics . Example ; McCarthy plays in x amounts of games and Everton only win x amount, what does this stat prove ! who were the opponents ? how well did the other midfielders perform around him ? was the person/persons marking McCarthy playing well. Stats fall down on so many levels. Job creation for people who spend too long squinting at numbers.Take some time out from your data and watch the player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's your stats that are waffle, read the couple of posts before this one was posted.Sure you can apply stats to friggin machines (F1) but not to footballers. Try and explain how some of my examples fall to pieces, your whole arguement/examples of stats are flawed. F1........diagnostics . Example ; McCarthy plays in x amounts of games and Everton only win x amount, what does this stat prove ! who were the opponents ? how well did the other midfielders perform around him ? was the person/persons marking McCarthy playing well. Stats fall down on so many levels. Job creation for people who spend too long squinting at numbers.Take some time out from your data and watch the player. Why do I skim read your posts? Keep them succinct ffs. You spend line after line labouring one point. You lose its impact. Strikers have easily tangible stats as do keepers, goals scored - clean sheets kept. Other positions require a little more analysis. You and MC are the only ones to dispute the McCarthy stats. Speaks volumes. Must be a teenage thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Why do I skim read your posts? Keep them succinct ffs. You spend line after line labouring one point. You lose its impact. Strikers have easily tangible stats as do keepers, goals scored - clean sheets kept. Other positions require a little more analysis. You and MC are the only ones to dispute the McCarthy stats. Speaks volumes. Must be a teenage thing. It's not about disputing. I'd have McCarthy in my first 11. It's the complete overrating of him. You're basically trying to suggest HE ALONE makes us better in defense and attack! Totally disregarding all the other things that can impact on individual results. The main ones being the strength of opposition, individual performances, individual errors, performances of opposition players and other key players being involved! But you'll turn a blind eye to that. This is where I'm different to you I may blow smoke up Mirallas ass but I have good reason. I'd never ever suggest we've lost because he wasn't playing! You seem to forget we've been shit with McCarthy in the side for months! Edited January 17, 2015 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 It's not about disputing. I'd have McCarthy in my first 11. It's the complete overrating of him. You're basically trying to suggest HE ALONE makes us better in defense and attack! Totally disregarding all the other things that can impact on individual results. The main ones being the strength of opposition, individual performances, individual errors, performances of opposition players and other key players being involved! But you'll turn a blind eye to that. This is where I'm different to you I may blow smoke up Mirallas ass but I have good reason. I'd never ever suggest we've lost because he wasn't playing! You seem to forget we've been shit with McCarthy in the side for months! If we are gonna talk literally, he has made numerous goal line clearances, resulting in him winning us points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 If we are gonna talk literally, he has made numerous goal line clearances, resulting in him winning us points. The problem is Brett he has stated that McCarthy is overrated. So he has to dilute his importance. The points with and without are so ridiculously powerful that there is no debate. Yet he tries to bring in other variables, its futile. Every poster on here bar MC values McCarthy as one of or if not the most crucial player we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 The problem is Brett he has stated that McCarthy is overrated. So he has to dilute his importance. The points with and without are so ridiculously powerful that there is no debate. Yet he tries to bring in other variables, its futile. Every poster on here bar MC values McCarthy as one of or if not the most crucial player we have. Im with you when it comes to McCarthy however he does have a very valid point about needing to take the opposition into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Im with you when it comes to McCarthy however he does have a very valid point about needing to take the opposition into account. Its not like McCarthy played in the easy games though Dunc. If anything he missed the supposedly easy games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Its not like McCarthy played in the easy games though Dunc. If anything he missed the supposedly easy games. Must admit I haven't looked , but if that's the case then fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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