MC11 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry Mike that's rubbish. Moyes would bring defensive players on to protect a lead. I certainly don't remember Heitinga coming on leaving no CF on the pitch. I'd like to see that game. He may have left Cahill upfront alone but we all know he was good in that role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry Mike that's rubbish. Moyes would bring defensive players on to protect a lead. I certainly don't remember Heitinga coming on leaving no CF on the pitch. I'd like to see that game. He may have left Cahill upfront alone but we all know he was good in that role. I was stretching the point. I just completely disagree that we were playing for a draw yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry Mike that's rubbish. Moyes would bring defensive players on to protect a lead. I certainly don't remember Heitinga coming on leaving no CF on the pitch. I'd like to see that game. He may have left Cahill upfront alone but we all know he was good in that role. I recall very well drawing a game 1-1 against Bolton in the fa cup and moyes taking off jelavic for heitinga, ironically heitinga scored the winner. But yeah you get the picture. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I recall very well drawing a game 1-1 against Bolton in the fa cup and moyes taking off jelavic for heitinga, ironically heitinga scored the winner. But yeah you get the picture. A good substitution then. Anichebe also played the full 90 in that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I recall very well drawing a game 1-1 against Bolton in the fa cup and moyes taking off jelavic for heitinga, ironically heitinga scored the winner. But yeah you get the picture. I was at that game and it was an attacking substitution Hietinga slotted in at DM releasing Osman to play in a more advanced role Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 A good substitution then. Anichebe also played the full 90 in that game. But you said moyes brought defensive players on to protect a lead, he actually tried to play for the draw. He said after the match that he thought Bolton had done enough to draw. He did exactly the same to get a draw in 83rd minute against qpr away. Probably get more examples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 He did put defensive players on to protect the leads and yes we did suffer from it. But I don't ever remember him leaving us with no striker to protect a draw. That's what Mike basically said. Yesterday absolutely stunk of looking for a draw. Everyone could see we needed an extra spark up front if we were going to Nick it. The Mirallas sub was forced by going behind. I kid you not Mirallas spent the majority of the second half warming up. The street end were singing his name from 60 minutes. Let's be honest the guy has got it massively wrong this season. We're now 4 wiins away from Europa qualification and 5 away from CL. The way things are going 5 points from a possibly 27 that gap is only going to get bigger. Hopefully now the players have managed themselves we can get out of this mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 The Qpr game you mention we had Naismith and Mirallas still on the pitch when Jelavic went off. It's hardly removing all our attackers to protect a draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Putting personnel to one side, my point would be that during the Moyes era I spent endless hours hiding behind the sofa while we dropped deeper and deeper back defending whether it was one point or three. We were a boxer on the ropes holding on for grim death, never getting close to throwing a punch (wow, I did an analogy ). We'd just hoof the ball up the pitch gifting it back to the opposition and they'd come at us again. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. That has never happened under Martinez. And it's not what happened yesterday, we settled for a point after ninety-three and a half minutes when we got a throw by the bench and were in no hurry to take it. Not before. pete0 and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Putting personnel to one side, my point would be that during the Moyes era I spent endless hours hiding behind the sofa while we dropped deeper and deeper back defending whether it was one point or three. We were a boxer on the ropes holding on for grim death, never getting close to throwing a punch (wow, I did an analogy ). We'd just hoof the ball up the pitch gifting it back to the opposition and they'd come at us again. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. That has never happened under Martinez. And it's not what happened yesterday, we settled for a point after ninety-three and a half minutes when we got a throw by the bench and were in no hurry to take it. Not before. Ok I agree with that for the most part. Sometimes Moyes did maybe sit back at the wrong times and we did drop points because of it. However, there is certainly a change to Martinez gung-ho mentality of last season. The subs are coming a lot later. I actually don't think it's a bad idea to protect a lead at times. There's been times this season when we should have shut shop and we haven't. It's all about getting the right balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/15134/9645816/premier-league-questions-over-roberto-martinezs-tactics-as-everton-struggle-for-balance-in-his-second-season Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) "Joel Robles has averaged nine passes into the final third in each of the last two Premier League games - Howard had not completed more than eight of them in any of his 18 appearances this season." I don't understand why this quote was included in that article? Edited January 15, 2015 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) A response from Martinez in the presser, after he was asked whether he will be "sure'ing" up the defence this January. "Priority is winning football matches not keeping clean sheets." hmmm....discuss... Edited January 16, 2015 by tenaciousj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 A response from Martinez in the presser, after he was asked whether he will be "sure'ing" up the defence this January. "Priority is winning football matches not keeping clean sheets." hmmm....discuss... The plan is to score our way to victory! I'm all seriousness, he's probably a bit bored of references to defending so is giving a short shrift answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 A response from Martinez in the presser, after he was asked whether he will be "sure'ing" up the defence this January. "Priority is winning football matches not keeping clean sheets." hmmm....discuss... Naive. Being better defensively doesn't half help to win football matches, to dismiss it like it's irrelevant is idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think it's all well implying we just need to score more than them, but in reality, we're heaping all that pressure on Rom. No one else is really picking up the mantle and sharing responsibility. Naismith is closest to it but 2 players to supply all your goals is ridiculous. If you kept the clean sheets with those players scoring a handful, would be OK but to claim it's not relevant, I find extremely weird and slightly unnerving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 A response from Martinez in the presser, after he was asked whether he will be "sure'ing" up the defence this January. "Priority is winning football matches not keeping clean sheets." hmmm....discuss... Well it certainly helps if you don't have to score in order not to lose.... Romey 1878, Lowensda and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Naive. Being better defensively doesn't half help to win football matches, to dismiss it like it's irrelevant is idiotic. It is irrelevant. Explain to me how you win a football game by not out scoring the opponent. Not possible. Defense is great, but offense is the only way to win the match, unless you want davie draw back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 It is irrelevant. Explain to me how you win a football game by not out scoring the opponent. Not possible. Defense is great, but offense is the only way to win the match, unless you want davie draw back. I didn't say you win a game by not out scoring the opponent did I? The defensive side of the game isn't irrelevant and to say it is is just stupid. If you concede less then it makes a hell of a lot easier to win games because you have to score less. It's a lot of pressure on our attack if they pretty much know they have to score at least 2 goals every single game. If defence is irrelevant then let's sell all our defenders and just play attacking players... Bullshit. Plain and simple. Lowensda and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I didn't say you win a game by not out scoring the opponent did I? The defensive side of the game isn't irrelevant and to say it is is just stupid. If you concede less then it makes a hell of a lot easier to win games because you have to score less. It's a lot of pressure on our attack if they pretty much know they have to score at least 2 goals every single game. If defence is irrelevant then let's sell all our defenders and just play attacking players... Bullshit. Plain and simple. Martinez said winning the the most important. You claim he is naive for not mentioning defense. But you fail to see that the only way to win is score. Defense is great but it cannot win a game. Simple as that. So he's not naive, he knows how to win a game, by scoring. Never said not to play defense or whatever, just saying the letter of the law is scoring is the o oh way to win, so therefore Martinez is not naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Martinez said winning the the most important. You claim he is naive for not mentioning defense. But you fail to see that the only way to win is score. Defense is great but it cannot win a game. Simple as that. So he's not naive, he knows how to win a game, by scoring. Never said not to play defense or whatever, just saying the letter of the law is scoring is the o oh way to win, so therefore Martinez is not naive. But it can stop you losing. So would you prefer 1 or 0 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Martinez said winning the the most important. You claim he is naive for not mentioning defense. But you fail to see that the only way to win is score. Defense is great but it cannot win a game. Simple as that. So he's not naive, he knows how to win a game, by scoring. Never said not to play defense or whatever, just saying the letter of the law is scoring is the o oh way to win, so therefore Martinez is not naive. He is naive to dismiss defence, it HELPS you to win for gods sake! It. Is. Part. Of. The. Game. I don't fail to see that the only way to win is to score at all. But conceding less makes it easier to get the win. If we'd conceded less this season then we'd have more points right now. Fact. So yes, it's very fucking naive to dismiss the defensive side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Martinez said winning the the most important. You claim he is naive for not mentioning defense. But you fail to see that the only way to win is score. Defense is great but it cannot win a game. Simple as that. So he's not naive, he knows how to win a game, by scoring. Never said not to play defense or whatever, just saying the letter of the law is scoring is the o oh way to win, so therefore Martinez is not naive. It is, and if you have to only score 1 to win because you're keeping clean sheets, then thats easier all round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Didn't Peter Reid come out with something like, if an opponent scored ( THIS IS THE MID 80'S TEAM ) you knew you would still probably win, because we always knew we would score goals.Maybe that's what Martinez is thinking. Problem is this is not the team from the mid 80's. Defence at times looks piss poor, and up untill a couple of games back it was taking 150 passes to get to the opponents penalty area, then they would play it back and start again. If the Baines/Pienaar partnership was in full flow, Coleman was breaking into opponents penalty areas, Barkley knew when to pass and when to shoot, Naismith and Lukaku were flying as we know they can......then and only then would I not be so bothered about the defence. Martinez worries me a bit ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 But it can stop you losing. So would you prefer 1 or 0 points? 3 points. You play to win. You don't play to not lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 It is irrelevant. Explain to me how you win a football game by not out scoring the opponent. Not possible. Defense is great, but offense is the only way to win the match, unless you want davie draw back. Sound, so lets go out and score 2-3 a game but more than likely conced 5-6. Have you forgotten Chelsea. Mark I like you you seem a really nice guy but you have some strange views onfootball and ways of thinking. ALL I'll repeat that ALL good sides who are successful aregood at the back, they all concede very few and are water tight. It's the formula for any winning side. Tell me one side that's been succesful winning 4-3 or 5-4 every game. Firstly we don't have the fire power for that and more importanyly it highlights Martinez total disregard for defence and keeping a solid foundation to build on and progress. That statement really REALLY worries me how can he just say that and have no concerns for usconceding goals the rate we are. In fact it's pissed me off a little bit. duncanmckenzieismagic and MC11 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 He is naive to dismiss defence, it HELPS you to win for gods sake! It. Is. Part. Of. The. Game. I don't fail to see that the only way to win is to score at all. But conceding less makes it easier to get the win. If we'd conceded less this season then we'd have more points right now. Fact. So yes, it's very fucking naive to dismiss the defensive side. This very much so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I should have phrased what I said better, apologies. Romey and others are jumping on Martinez because he said he doesnt care about clean sheets he just cares about winning. Some have taken this to say he doesn't care about defense. My point was that Roberto is not naive and to win a game you need offense so not caring about a clean sheet doesn't mean he doesn't care about defense, it simply means in the simplest way, to win a game you just out score the opponent. Obviously you need 11 men and defense and offense and the transition game, etc. im not against any of that, I love a solid d and keeper. What I am saying is rm isn't agaisnt defense, and isn't naive. Not sure if you all follow basketball but there was a college team that won multiple championships by playing minimal defense. They simply attacked and moved the ball as fast as possible back down the court to score. By their superior scoring skills and conditioning they would wear teams down and win by 20 points. All attack. That's not to say I believe in that way, just putting different ideas out there. Edited January 16, 2015 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 3 points. You play to win. You don't play to not lose. Playing for a clean sheet is not playing to lose, its playing to at least draw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I should have phrased what I said better, apologies. Romey and others are jumping on Martinez because he said he doesnt care about clean sheets he just cares about winning. Some have taken this to say he doesn't care about defense. My point was that Roberto is not naive and to win a game you need offense so not caring about a clean sheet doesn't mean he doesn't care about defense, it simply means in the simplest way, to win a game you just out score the opponent. Obviously you need 11 men and defense and offense and the transition game, etc. im not against any of that, I love a solid d and keeper. What I am saying is rm isn't agaisnt defense, and isn't naive. Not sure if you all follow basketball but there was a college team that won multiple championships by playing minimal defense. They simply attacked and moved the ball as fast as possible back down the court to score. By their superior scoring skills and conditioning they would wear teams down and win by 20 points. All attack. That's not to say I believe in that way, just putting different ideas out there. Mark the point is, we're leaking goals at an alarming rate. Only QPR have conceded more. The fact he's refusing to even acknowledge this absolutely astounds me. To just ignore the question and focus on attack shows a stubbornessin him that realy worries me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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