US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[nyblue23]

In the USA would it be fair to say then that the Russians are still viewed as the enemy by most people.

So if it was proven that he did collude with the Russians to win the vote for president, would he be seen as traitor to most Americans.

 

On the whole, his supporters don't use logic or reason in their evaluations of him, so while I think it would be the logical conclusion, I don't think they'll start to view him any differently.

 

I think the rest of us see him too much as a buffoon to see him as a dangerous traitor, though I think most of us already see him as a traitor to the American people.

Edited July 31, 2017 by nyblue23

[Cornish Steve]

In the USA would it be fair to say then that the Russians are still viewed as the enemy by most people.

So if it was proven that he did collude with the Russians to win the vote for president, would he be seen as traitor to most Americans.

 

Yes.

[Elston Gunnn]

I'm just guessing it's 50/50 whether Trump lasts. There's no reason to doubt that something(s) close to obstruction of justice will be discovered by Mueller's investigation. Heck, nearly a majority of Americans already think he's obstructed justice!

 

But unless multiple "smoking gun" examples of obstruction of justice are uncovered, House Republicans are hardly likely to bring articles of impeachment. Moreover, the Constitution requires a 2/3 Senate vote for conviction on an article of impeachment for a President to be removed from office.

 

So fhe 2018 midterm elections will probably determine his fate. And our fate.

 

Today's breaking news is the Scaramucci firing. I'm surely not the only (nit)wit to chortle that "Scaramucci has been repealed and replaced."

 

Tonight's bigger breaking news, reported by the Wash Post, is that the President himself dictated his son's lying statement about the purpose of Donald Jr's infamous meeting with the Russians.

 

I'm hoping - and don't totally discount the possibility - that Trump will resign before 2020 election. I'm probably hallucinating.

[Elston Gunnn]

Here's a new article by Senator Jeff Flake, a real conservative and rising star in the Republican Party, straightforwardly admitting that he and his party have erred in making their Faustian bargain with Trump. Flake's honesty is refreshing, as he gives a couple of examples of his own "monumental dodges" of the truth about Trump. He's encouraging others to face the reality of the danger of Trump, and bluntly says that Republicans must not cower when Trump "plays to his base."

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/31/my-party-is-in-denial-about-donald-trump-215442

[Chach]

 

Yes.

 

Not so fast

 

37% of Republicans now have a favorable view of Putin

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/gop-russia-putin-support-232714

[markjazzbassist]

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/01/540783715/lawsuit-alleges-fox-news-and-trump-supporter-created-fake-news-story

 

interesting lawsuit. essentially catching fake news being made by Fox by the guy who had to deliver it.

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40915569

[Matt]

I don't get the reason for removing historical stuff, no matter who wrong it is seen in todays light - it should be left as an example of how backward people were and how far they've come.

 

The idea this is "defending history" is a fucking joke though

[johnh]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40915569

Trump condemned violence 'by many sides'. He must have been reading about Corbyn who used almost identical words about Venezuela. Politicians are all the same whether left or right.

[markjazzbassist]

I don't get the reason for removing historical stuff, no matter who wrong it is seen in todays light - it should be left as an example of how backward people were and how far they've come.

 

The idea this is "defending history" is a fucking joke though

Because it's a symbol of slavery and pro slavery and for people who's relatives were enslaved it's a graphic reminder they'd like to not see anymore. Last time I checked there is a nazi museum in Germany and a couple small ones. Not a statue in the center of half of the major cities in the country.

 

In New Orleans there were 4 massive monuments in prominent city areas reminding black folks that state wanted them enslaved. Not a nice reminder matt

[MikeO]

Because it's a symbol of slavery and pro slavery and for people who's relatives were enslaved it's a graphic reminder they'd like to not see anymore. Last time I checked there is a nazi museum in Germany and a couple small ones. Not a statue in the center of half of the major cities in the country.

 

In New Orleans there were 4 massive monuments in prominent city areas reminding black folks that state wanted them enslaved. Not a nice reminder matt

 

That was going to be my point; are you suggesting there should be statues of Hitler all over Germany Matt and swastikas flying from government buildings?

[Matt]

That was going to be my point; are you suggesting there should be statues of Hitler all over Germany Matt and swastikas flying from government buildings?

of course not. There are collections and museums everywhere, but there are also reminders in (for example) Berlin that are left as memorials to worse times. Slap bang in the middle of the city. Edited August 13, 2017 by Matt

[MikeO]

of course not. There are collections and museums everywhere, but there are also reminders in (for example) Berlin that are left as memorials to worse times. Slap bang in the middle of the city.

 

But those memorials aren't celebrated apart from by nutjobs. In the US these statues/flags are still seen as a source of pride for many; globally most (eg Auschwitz) are as you say kept as a reminder of past insanity and are a positive thing. Big difference.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40914748

 

"The alt-right is a new danger. We have a right-wing gangster in the White House who emboldens them, who empowers them. So they feel they have permission for their hate to come out in public, and maybe even harm others. We are in a dangerous moment."

[Matt]

But those memorials aren't celebrated apart from by nutjobs. In the US these statues/flags are still seen as a source of pride for many; globally most (eg Auschwitz) are as you say kept as a reminder of past insanity and are a positive thing. Big difference.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40914748

 

"The alt-right is a new danger. We have a right-wing gangster in the White House who emboldens them, who empowers them. So they feel they have permission for their hate to come out in public, and maybe even harm others. We are in a dangerous moment."

and that crowd was 100 people, right? Sounds like a handful of nutjobs to me.

 

And I'm not talking Auschwitz. Im talking about the wall, the building with the bullet holes, the checkpoint, the memorial slap bang in the captial of the country. Should we pull them all down because of the history they represent?

 

I think putting the bad history out there is as important as the good history.

 

Should we pull all national flags which are seen by many as iconic and revered, despite atrocities committed under it?

Edited August 13, 2017 by Matt

[MikeO]

Firstly I think it was a much bigger gathering than 100 people. Looked that way to me.

 

The Berlin Wall was a political divide, it didn't (doesn't) call to mind dehumanising or slaughter like slavery and the holocaust do. Very different things for me.

 

Agree completely bad history needs to be remembered but many in the US are celebrating it, which is very different from remembering it and learning.

 

Flags? Difficult. Obviously the swastika should be condemned to history (the German incarnation of it at least) and I personally think the Confederate flag should go the same way. But then you get to the Union Jack which has had many atrocities committed in its name along with several European ones. English flag has been hijacked by the far right as well.

 

It's a conundrum for sure and I take your points; when I come up with the answer I'll be president of the World .

[Matt]

Firstly I think it was a much bigger gathering than 100 people. Looked that way to me.

 

The Berlin Wall was a political divide, it didn't (doesn't) call to mind dehumanising or slaughter like slavery and the holocaust do. Very different things for me.

 

Agree completely bad history needs to be remembered but many in the US are celebrating it, which is very different from remembering it and learning.

 

Flags? Difficult. Obviously the swastika should be condemned to history (the German incarnation of it at least) and I personally think the Confederate flag should go the same way. But then you get to the Union Jack which has had many atrocities committed in its name along with several European ones. English flag has been hijacked by the far right as well.

 

It's a conundrum for sure and I take your points; when I come up with the answer I'll be president of the World .

a political divide as a result of a massive war.

 

I'm not for celebrating that history, but I am against removing it because it's upsetting. Painful or not, it needs to be remembered.

 

Too sensitive a topic for a forum though, so I'll stop here.

[nyblue23]

Firstly I think it was a much bigger gathering than 100 people. Looked that way to me.

 

The Berlin Wall was a political divide, it didn't (doesn't) call to mind dehumanising or slaughter like slavery and the holocaust do. Very different things for me.

 

Agree completely bad history needs to be remembered but many in the US are celebrating it, which is very different from remembering it and learning.

 

Flags? Difficult. Obviously the swastika should be condemned to history (the German incarnation of it at least) and I personally think the Confederate flag should go the same way. But then you get to the Union Jack which has had many atrocities committed in its name along with several European ones. English flag has been hijacked by the far right as well.

 

It's a conundrum for sure and I take your points; when I come up with the answer I'll be president of the World .

There may have only been a hundred at the rally, but the sentiment runs strong across the U.S. Confederate flags are not hard to find no matter what state you're in and fly proudly pretty much all over the South. It's as if a quarter of Germany were rallying behind those reminders you mention and using them as a defense to return to a time that they perceive was better for people like them.

[Elston Gunnn]

Here's an excellent commentary on Trump and Trumpism. I commend to your particular attention the third paragraph, beginning with "But then....."

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/13/why-trump-cant-say-the-obvious-215481

 

Trump is a sociopath, extreme narcissist, pathological liar, cheat, blusterer, and incurious ignoramus. He ran a fascist - or if you prefer, "near-fascist," campaign. His immediate response to events in Charlottesville, penned by one of his "white nationalist" enablers, was an obvious dog-whistle to that large part of his reactionary populist base that yearns to turn history back, and backwards.

 

Sounds like a handful of nutjobs to me.

I quote Matt here because a key question about Trump and his base is why the vast majority of them - among tens of millions of supporters - have yet to be express even tentative embarrassment at the prominence among Trump's advisers and spokesmen of white nationalists such as Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, and Sebastian Gorka.

 

I have before in this thread raised the awkward question of Trump's supporters, and their patriotic responsibilities. It's one thing to say that tens of millions of them reluctantly voted for Trump as the lesser evil to Clinton. It's quite another for them to stay silent when the man they voted for demonstrates, almost literally every day and in multiple ways, his total unfitness for the office of U.S. president.

 

It's not just Trump who, as Jeff Greenfield says in his article, "is completely disconnected from any understanding of the American political tradition." It's tens of millions of Trump's enablers, his still-loyal base, who are equally disconnected.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Elston Gunnn

[Keith B]

Because it's a symbol of slavery and pro slavery and for people who's relatives were enslaved it's a graphic reminder they'd like to not see anymore. Last time I checked there is a nazi museum in Germany and a couple small ones. Not a statue in the center of half of the major cities in the country.

 

In New Orleans there were 4 massive monuments in prominent city areas reminding black folks that state wanted them enslaved. Not a nice reminder matt

 

An additional point: Some of the monuments are relatively recent phenomenon--a lot of them weren't installed until the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement. These things weren't intended as historical markers, they were outright symbols of white domination and power installed to intimidate people of color. Case in point: there are a bunch of monuments in Arizona, which wasn't even a state during the Civil War.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Keithb18

[nutmegwolf203]

I don't get the reason for removing historical stuff, no matter who wrong it is seen in todays light - it should be left as an example of how backward people were and how far they've come.

 

The idea this is "defending history" is a fucking joke though

 

The flag, tyrannical statues, et all symbolize oppression. Perhaps these objects or examples of them can be, I don't know, present in the confines of museums or accurate text books? The Civil Rights Institute in Birmingham is a place that I've been to that at least tries to get things right with its content and programming. There you will find KKK hoods/uniforms, a bombed-out bus, the shattered remains of the stained glass window from the church in that city. They do a wonderful job.

 

Visit a museum, or pick up some enriching literature on these subjects; if you need somewhere to start I have a running list.

 

The 'erasing history' stance is a tired one. The Germans were able to do it in less time with monuments that bring to light the horrors of the Holocaust. They know the details, without seeing Hitler on statues and without swastikas all over the place (despite any graffiti that pops up, I assume.) It is literally the same thing, there is no difference. The rebel flag is to slavery as the swastika is to the holocaust, they can't be disassociated. It should offend everyone and POC shouldn't be left to cry foul to an audience that continually ignores them. It's everyone's burden, it hurts us all. There is a 9/11 Memorial; it's been open for years but this country isn't nearly as comfortable dealing with the evils of slavery. So much so that places like this happen to be vanguards in the preservation and historical sector:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/01/is-the-whitney-plantation-really-americas-first-slavery-museum/431448/

 

I've been; it's harrowing and more people should make the trip if they're ever down in the New Orleans area. It's about an hour NW I believe.

 

These monuments, or 'history' as some people call it were mostly erected in the very late 19th century so the treasonous act of doing so would fly under the radar, or even more recently as an affront to the efforts of the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's. They're not timeless Grecian statues that have been a part of city skylines forever, they're methods of intimidation and hateful pride made physical. They're like building a statue of Joseph Goebbels just after the Nazi defeat and fighting tooth and nail for them to stay up to this day, except the Confederacy lost which makes even less sense; unless your main goal is to keep the ideas and morals of your populace brooding for years to come, even in the face of defeat.

 

It worked, here we are and now because the statues are things that inspire some people and confuse others into a state of dismissal they did their job as a form of time released hate. Some are charged up, some don't 'see the big deal', and some of us are just as scared as ever. You wouldn't ask people people to just 'deal with' and 'learn from' a statue of a Nazi chief officer. Surely there are other ways to grow?

Edited August 13, 2017 by nutmegwolf203

[nutmegwolf203]

 

An additional point: Most of the monuments are relatively recent phenomenon--a lot of them weren't installed until the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement. These things weren't intended as historical markers, they were outright symbols of white domination and power installed to intimidate people of color. Case in point: there are a bunch of monuments in Arizona, which wasn't even a state during the Civil War.

 

beat me to it

[nutmegwolf203]

Because it's a symbol of slavery and pro slavery and for people who's relatives were enslaved it's a graphic reminder they'd like to not see anymore. Last time I checked there is a nazi museum in Germany and a couple small ones. Not a statue in the center of half of the major cities in the country.

 

In New Orleans there were 4 massive monuments in prominent city areas reminding black folks that state wanted them enslaved. Not a nice reminder matt

 

In a cab on my first visit to NO last year I asked my driver what one of these very statues was; what effigy was it depicting? He said Robert E. Lee. That's when they were just talking about taking them down. After about four days in a very fun city I quickly remembered where I was.

[nutmegwolf203]

Of course it's been said better than I could have put it:

 

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

 

-Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

From, 'Letter from a Birmingham Jail'

 

 

This can be applied to many marginalized groups.

Edited August 13, 2017 by nutmegwolf203

[Chach]

Listened a podcast on the negative effects to US GDP and jobs of the RAISE Act:

 

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-real-costs-of-the-raise-act/

 

Good to see Trump's policies are evidence based and not just populist /sarcasmo

[markjazzbassist]

Listened a podcast on the negative effects to US GDP and jobs of the RAISE Act:

 

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-real-costs-of-the-raise-act/

 

Good to see Trump's policies are evidence based and not just populist /sarcasmo

 

no surprise there.

[MikeO]

Bit late Donald, obviously been told he needs to do it.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

 

Why wasn't it "evil racism" yesterday?

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40940044

[nyblue23]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40940044

 

He needs to go.

[Cornish Steve]

Bit late Donald, obviously been told he needs to do it.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

 

Why wasn't it "evil racism" yesterday?

 

Yesterday, he squirmed his way through that statement prepared by his staff. Today, he revealed what he really thinks: there were "good and peaceful people" among the white supremacists and the real culprits were "the alt-left." David Duke, infamous white supremacist leader, thanked the president for his courage in saying that. You just can't make this stuff up. We're approaching a rather dangerous period of time, and increasingly I see an attack on North Korea as the president's inevitable attempt at distraction.

[Cornish Steve]

These are the white supremacists among whom the president tells us there are "good and peaceful people." These are the people whom he appears to be defending and who are now thanking him for his support.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/charlottesville-vice-documentary_us_59930983e4b09071f69cc8f6?