Brexit...

[Newty82]

Why does this strawman thing keep appearing? Is this the new buzzword when you want to argue with people? Is it whoever says strawman first, wins?!!!

[Matt]

Why does this strawman thing keep appearing? Is this the new buzzword when you want to argue with people? Is it whoever says strawman first, wins?!!!

Dunno man.

 

But guys, come on. Lets try and keep it civil. We've done really well on an emotional topic for the most part, lets keep it that way. After all, nothing (apart from global economies having a massive blow and the political parties falling apart) has even happened yet and it will be a long time before we see any real change

[johnh]

What independence? They already live that with the British government! I think the irony is this:

 

Great Britain voted, not a country but an alliance (much like the EU in the most simple of terms) of countries. All these member countries of Great Britain vote to have the local MPs representing their interests in Parliment, where a handful of key members run the union; e.g. PM, Chanellor of the Exchequer, Education Ministors etc - none of which you vote for directly but are chosen by the party you choose. Much like how the EU members are elected (someone feel free to correct me).

 

Now, Scotland (easiest example) as a country voted to remain by a much bigger margin, yet they're now forced to go with the union decision that they see as unfair, as they're now being dictated to by a corrupt union who don't pay them heed. It is not a democratic representation of their country. Any of this sound familiar? Anyone who thinks that's democratic is right in terms of 52% vs 48% but not in terms of actual democracy for the countries.

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would actually support Scottish independence now and they'd be well within their right.

Matt, don't understand your comment 'dictated to by a corrupt union'. Were you referring to the EU here?

[Chach]

As for the argument...I know where your coming from. But it's an impossible argument.

 

What is the nature of that? can you explain it to me because I don't get it.

 

I've lived the majority of my voting life in Australia* and if we have a Ref. you need 50% of the vote and 50% of the states (or everything would be decided by Melbourne and Sydney, much like in UK with England)

 

*I actually only missed out by a year because last time I live in UK was 2000, that also makes no sense that people out the country less than 15 years get a vote, at least make it 5 or something.

[Matt]

Matt, don't understand your comment 'dictated to by a corrupt union'. Were you referring to the EU here?

no, the Tories/West minister

[Newty82]

Dunno man.

 

But guys, come on. Lets try and keep it civil. We've done really well on an emotional topic for the most part, lets keep it that way. After all, nothing (apart from global economies having a massive blow and the political parties falling apart) has even happened yet and it will be a long time before we see any real change

It's hard sometimes though isn't it? Just to have an honest conversation!!!

 

Chach will disagree here, but I'm laughing to myself at how when I first read his 'I'll make it simple for you' post, I thought to myself 'seems a bit condescending...swerve past it...don't start arguing!!'...then read his replies to JohnH about being condescending!!!

 

Just another day on Toffeetalk!!!

[MikeO]

Why does this strawman thing keep appearing? Is this the new buzzword when you want to argue with people? Is it whoever says strawman first, wins?!!!

 

Seems like it's the new Godwin's Law.

[Chach]

Chach will disagree here, but I'm laughing to myself at how when I first read his 'I'll make it simple for you' post, I thought to myself 'seems a bit condescending...swerve past it...don't start arguing!!'...then read his replies to JohnH about being condescending!!!

 

I will disagree because I just said I'd make it simple, so my point was clear.

Not that I would make it simple for you ,because you are how the French say, le retard.

 

I'm half Scottish too so I am fairly passionate about the fairness of this.

[Newty82]

 

Seems like it's the new Godwin's Law.

Definitely. It's a bit if a white flag moment.

[MikeO]

 

I will disagree because I just said I'd make it simple, so my point was clear.

Not that I would make it simple for you ,because you are how the French say, le retard.

 

I'm half Scottish too so I am fairly passionate about the fairness of this.

 

No need for that.

[Chach]

 

No need for that.

 

I hope you're joking, that was a clarification of what I was not inferring.

[Matt]

 

I will disagree because I just said I'd make it simple, so my point was clear.

Not that I would make it simple for you ,because you are how the French say, le retard.

 

I'm half Scottish too so I am fairly passionate about the fairness of this.

That's coming across a bit too much at the moment mate

[Newty82]

 

I will disagree because I just said I'd make it simple, so my point was clear.

Not that I would make it simple for you ,because you are how the French say, le retard.

 

I'm half Scottish too so I am fairly passionate about the fairness of this.

Oh a retard now?! 'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.'

 

I'm married to a Glaswegian, my kids are half Scottish. I enjoy my visits to Glasgow and like the Scots. I'm welcomed with open arms and have no issues. Does that mean that my passion for fairness is acceptably equal to yours now that you know about me what you didn't before?

 

Strawman. Strawman. Haha.

[Newty82]

 

I hope you're joking, that was a clarification of what I was not inferring.

I read it as me being a retard too? Have I misunderstood? Not that I was insulted or anything.

 

But I am getting very confused by this thread now! Time to bow out I think!!!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Newty82

[johnh]

no, the Tories/West minister

Matt, because it is an historic problem, I assume you mean Labour/Westminster too?

[Newty82]

Matt, because it is an historic problem, I assume you mean Labour/Westminster too?

Remove the party and just say 'Westminster'.

[Chach]

I read it as me being a retard too? Have I misunderstood? Not that I was insulted or anything.

 

But I am getting very confused by this thread now! Time to bow out I think!!!

 

Yeah you misunderstood, my first instinct is that I haven't explained myself properly so I'll have another go at being clearer.

 

Mea Culpa.

[Chach]

 

Seems like it's the new Godwin's Law.

 

Aristotle was the first to point out the logical fallacy, deffo pre interwebs.

[Matt]

Matt, because it is an historic problem, I assume you mean Labour/Westminster too?

 

Remove the party and just say 'Westminster'.

I put Tories because they've led us here, but yes, it's Westminster in general

 

At least there's no challenge of the corruption in the leadership of our own little union.

[Newty82]

 

Yeah you misunderstood, my first instinct is that I haven't explained myself properly so I'll have another go at being clearer.

 

Mea Culpa.

Ah. Ok.

 

All was good anyway.

 

Anyway folks, nice talking but I'm afraid I am bowing out of this discussion. I've spent so much time on this over the last few days that I actually feel worn out!!! My brain is running above it's capacity!!! News and social media need to be avoided for a few days!

 

Thanks though. Been great to read so many views and varying inputs.

[MikeO]

 

Yeah you misunderstood, my first instinct is that I haven't explained myself properly so I'll have another go at being clearer.

 

Mea Culpa.

 

Fair enough.

[johnh]

Is it true that Lukaku's is only 23?

[MikeO]

Is it true that Lukaku's is only 23?

 

Doesn't really matter any more; he's Belgish so he won't be allowed back into the country.

[Matt]

Is it true that Lukaku's is only 23?

Not denying the corruption of how our own collective leaders though mate?

 

If art. 50 is invoked, (still a big if, something I'm grasping onto) we've just given power to a corrupt party/government to do what they want, without any consequences from a higher governing body. Mind you, it's not been stopping them, EU or not.

 

Still, going to take a big, strong leader to submit art.50 now that Cameron has gone back on his word (surprise surprise) to trigger it and has kindly left it to his sucessor

[johnh]

Not denying the corruption of how our own collective leaders though mate?

 

If art. 50 is invoked, (still a big if, something I'm grasping onto) we've just given power to a corrupt party/government to do what they want, without any consequences from a higher governing body. Mind you, it's not been stopping them, EU or not.

 

Still, going to take a big, strong leader to submit art.50 now that Cameron has gone back on his word (surprise surprise) to trigger it and has kindly left it to his sucessor

I've a feeling we've been over this before but there is corruption wherever there is politics, though I am not sure exactly which corruption you are referring to. The corruption in the EU is endemic and is evidenced by the fact that the EU's own auditors have refused to sign off the accounts for the last 20 years.

[EFC-Paul]

I'm in no way suggesting this is gospel as it's a copy and paste but I've seen very little in terms of factual stats and events being banded around bar the drop in the economy which was always going to happen other than that it's racial accusations bigot jibes and those who voted out have a lack intelligence

 

 

Just a few of the "potential" positives to what may happen as apposed to all the doom and gloom and "what have you done" shite I keep seeing

 

A lot of people who voted Remain are asking "how did this happen?" If you're asking this question the answer is probably you.

 

Anyone who openly supported Brexit was shut-down and labeled racist or xenophobic instead of creating an open discussion.

 

You probably know 50 people who voted Leave but were scared to say it because you called them racist instead of listening to their concerns and opinions.

 

Here are are some good things about Brexit that should make everyone happy no matter what you voted for.

 

We can finally outlaw zero-hour contracts

 

We will be allowed to renationalise our insanely expensive private tendered rail system (as Corbyn has promised to do if he wins the next election, and I hope he does).

 

We will all still be able to live, travel, work and move through the EU/EEA without needing a visa. (something Leave mislead people about).

 

Within 24 hours of the UK voting to exit: Canada, the USA and Germany have all announced they want special, preferential trade deals with the UK as soon as possible.

 

Germany threatened to punish us with a trade tariff if we left the EU and Stay mislead us all by saying we would have an EU trade tariff: The EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately.

 

Our NHS, rail, education and other publicly owned enterprises won't be at risk of further privatisation from American corporations

 

Tax-evasion by Apple, Google and Facebook is going to be made much, much more difficult.

 

We will be able to rescue our local, small-scale farming industry. The EU forced us to give 90% of our agricultural subsidies to huge agri-corporations. As Oxfam said "the EU lavishes subsidies on the UK's wealthiest farmers and biggest landowners at the expense of millions of poorest farmers". The UK government campaigned to reform this horrible system. Now we can support and subsidise small, local farmers without needing permission from anyone else.

 

Fisherman/women around the UK are rejoicing at the prospect of being freed of the ineptitude of EU fishing policies. When we joined the EU, Europe was totally self-sufficient when it came to fish. Now we have to import 60% of our fish from outside of Europe because of incredibly poor management of fishing in EU waters.

 

We will no longer be supporting CAP (which was ruled illegal and immoral by the World Trade Organisation) which as Oxfam said "spreads poverty in the poorest nations on the planet"

We will be allowed to import affordable, environmentally friendly equipment for renewable energy which the EU banned us from doing.

 

In the UK we ban 1200 dangerous substances from use in cosmetics, had we stayed in the EU, TTIP would have forced us to reduce this number to allow American corporations to "compete fairly in the European market"

 

After 2010, the Tories introduced some very though regulations on banking and finance to avoid another rescission. The EU along with the USA sought to strip these regulations. Now we can keep the bankers and the City of London in check.

 

We will no longer be party to the incoming "Investor-State Dispute Settlements" treaty (ISDS), which all EU will be party to, will allow corporations to sue governments if their policies negatively affect their profits. So for example, if a government introduces an environmental policy that reduces a companies purse: a corporation whose only interest is profit will be able to sue a democratically elected government for protecting its people or environment from exploitation. We will no longer have this forced upon us.

 

The EU forced us to give up our seat at the WTO and they were trying to make us give up our seat at the UN Security Council which we will now be able to keep.

 

The UK is one of the most generous countries when it comes to foreign aid. The EU capped the amount of foreign aid we were allowed to give. Now we can be as generous as we wish.

 

For me the most exciting thing is we are now free to trade with the wider, outside world. There are exciting, emerging markets with amazing opportunities to be had that the UK was prevented from tapping into due to to the EU's "Common External

Tariff". Norway and Swizerland (two non-EU nations) have been benefiting immensely by the agility afforded to them by being able to enter into these markets without any barriers.

 

Now we are free of the Common External Tariff we are now free to trade and tender for huge infrastructure projects, selling our world-leading expertise, talent and knowledge with fast growing economies like India, Indonesia, Myanmar, China, Vietnam, South Africa and Malaysia just as South Korea, Japan, Norway and Swizerland have been doing for decades.

 

So next time you call someone racist for voting leave. Remember that leaving the EU has expanded our international-reach exponentially and we will become a true internationally trading nation, doing business with the most exciting, dynamic and diverse nations on the planet. If that makes someone "racist", then so be it.

 

??

Edited June 26, 2016 by EFC-Paul

[MikeO]

I'm in no way suggesting this is gospel as it's a copy and paste but I've seen very little in terms of factual stats and events being banded around bar the drop in the economy which was always going to happen other than that it's racial accusations bigot jibes and those who voted out have a lack intelligence

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that (and I've said this before); nobody is saying all those who voted out are racist bigots, just that all racist bigots will have voted out. No idea what percentage of the vote that amounts to, maybe 1% in which it made no difference to the outcome, maybe 10% in which case it did.

 

The "lack of intelligence" percentage would (I'd guess) be much higher among those that didn't vote at all than out voters.

 

The rest of the post an in campaigner could certainly come up with a counter argument for all the points; it's about as balanced as Donald Trump.

[Romey 1878]

The rest of the post an in campaigner could certainly come up with a counter argument for all the points; it's about as balanced as Donald Trump.

That's the problem isn't it? No matter what's put forward by either side the other side have found a way to say that's a load of shite. It's enough to scramble anyone's brain.

[MikeO]

That's the problem isn't it? No matter what's put forward by either side the other side have found a way to say that's a load of shite. It's enough to scramble anyone's brain.

 

True enough.

[Romey 1878]

True enough.

It doesn't help that both sides effectively only played the fear card. I feel remain would've shaded it if they'd chosen to put forward more of why it is a good thing to be part of the EU, rather than to concentrate on why it'd be bad to leave.