Definition of the classes in society

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, Shukes said:

Everton’s history has always been and will always be about effort and work rate. 
Stylish football back in the 1920s was far far from the possession football you see teams like Man City play. Ours was effective in getting the ball forward fast and working our ass off.

I had the pleasure of watching us in the 80s. I don’t think anyone would argue that we weren’t one of the hardest working teams around. We had 11 captains on the pitch.

Hard work has always been related to the working class Palf, that’s where the term comes from. It’s kind of in the name? Now if you can’t correlate that with how Dyche has us playing at the moment, and how results have improved…. Then I am just not qualified to explain it to you. 
 

Disagree me with me as much as you want. That’s fine. But for me…. Our results have improved due to our work rate and effort. The correlation is black and white for me.

You need to move forward in your life mate and step away from this fantasy you’ve surrounded yourself with, working class means a person of low intelligence and low skill not someone who works hard, our society has been broken up into 3 classes working class, middle class and upper class, working class doesn’t define you as someone who works harder than anyone else, it defines you as a labourer or semi skilled with little education or they could be called a pleb a person of low social class. All teams and players should work hard those with more ability can make it look easier than those without, football can’t just be about working hard and fitness what makes the difference between a successful team isn’t just athleticism it’s equally talent and the tactical ability to bring all those qualities together to become better. Teams like City, Utd , Liverpool, they all work hard but they are successful for a multitude of reasons other than just working hard. But this belief you have created for yourself of Everton just being successful due to hard work and their supporters being working class is for dreamer’s and Hollywood movie makers, football clubs have moved on from fifties and sixties as a sport for the low paid, with billionaire owners players and managers on millions of pounds a year and ticket prices to high in some cases for people no matter how working class you are. 

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

We're much more of a team, as well. Someone mentioned in the Mykolenko thread that Gray would never pass the ball to him. Put it another way: Gray is a selfish player. Better to have a solid team than a collection of prima donna individuals. The story about Onana being punished for being late is part of the same narrative: the actions of an individual must not be allowed to hurt the team. They're all in it together. Players appear to be talking to one another more, and they're not afraid to challenge their teammates. This is good to see.

By the way, there was a lot of concern after the transfer window that we'd spent too little and sold key players without replacements. Looking back, it was a superb window for us and just goes to prove that good recruitment is more about strategy than money. Let's hope we pursue the same approach in January.

Also to me it proved that we already had the players at the club to be a better team, when you think we brought in 5 new signings and we only play 2 on a regular basis, and one of them is seen as weak by a majority of fans.  The reemergence of DCL from injury and being able to stay fit and the bringing back of Brainthwaite from loan have for me been the 2 biggest pluses for me this season and not the recruitment.  

[Cornish Steve]

19 minutes ago, Palfy said:

our society has been broken up into 3 classes working class, middle class and upper class

Years ago, when I worked in central London, you'd sometimes see researchers on the street seeking short interviews with certain types of people. These researchers were always looking at the ground. Why? I learned that shoes are the single best indicator of a person's class. (Incidentally, back then at least, there were five: upper, upper middle, middle, lower middle, and working class. For the record, I fit best the definition of lower middle class.) Someone who's upper class tends to wear expensive and well-polished shoes, whereas someone who's working class takes very little care of their shoes. Wealth can be deceptive - you can be poor and upper class, and you can be rich and working class - but shoes less so.

I never forgot that and, when meeting new people for the first time, sometimes take a quick glance at their shoes.

[Palfy]

54 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Years ago, when I worked in central London, you'd sometimes see researchers on the street seeking short interviews with certain types of people. These researchers were always looking at the ground. Why? I learned that shoes are the single best indicator of a person's class. (Incidentally, back then at least, there were five: upper, upper middle, middle, lower middle, and working class. For the record, I fit best the definition of lower middle class.) Someone who's upper class tends to wear expensive and well-polished shoes, whereas someone who's working class takes very little care of their shoes. Wealth can be deceptive - you can be poor and upper class, and you can be rich and working class - but shoes less so.

I never forgot that and, when meeting new people for the first time, sometimes take a quick glance at their shoes.

I agree that there is an added class of upper middle class. Do you believe in your lower middle class fit that you are hardworking or do you believe as Shukes that hardworking is the preserve of the working classes “ because it’s in the name working”. Personally I did fit in well with the title working class I have a poor education and never attended college or university and my first job was in a factory as an apprentice tool maker which I left after 18 months to become a labourer on a building site, I was the purest form of working class you could get really.  Now my life has changed dramatically from those early days and I would be seen as the classic example of middle class from the outside looking in, yet I can’t be because all my trappings of business success may gloss over my education, but the reality is I have and always will be someone with a poor education even though I buy handmade shoes that doesn’t define me of who I am or does it in the class wars.  

[Shukes]

6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Calm down shukes!  I’m a stickler for hard work from players.  It’s the minimum expectation, let’s not lose sight that hard work also involves movement off the ball when in possession to make it easier to retain possession - something we don’t do very well. 

I’m calm mate. I can just see that what we’re doing seems to be working for now that’s all. 
I do want to see us play a bit more exciting football.

I just don’t want to see us go back to a possession based style that’s all. For me it’s boring and unexciting. I love to see us get forward fast and smash crosses in. My best ever football was watching Steven get the ball and whip it in for Sharpy and Gray. I loved the 80s football and would love to see us playing that way again.

 

[Shukes]

Palfy I only read the first paragraph mate and that was terrible. 
I am proud to be working class, I strive to be working class. I’m proud of who iv become and where I am. Especially considering where I came from. But the day I become a snob is the day I fail my family.

But I promise you my IQ is amongst the top 10% of everyone on this site. 
 

I have brought my house. I drive around in. 22 plate. I am the director of two businesses. But my feet are firmly on the ground and I’m honest enough to realise that opportunities are the biggest step you will ever meet. But I also have a great friend d who is a high ranking member of the masons. And he is the hardest working person I know…. He would still class himself as working class.

Fools label others my friend. Choose your own path and destiny and be proud of who you are.

[Palfy]

52 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Palfy I only read the first paragraph mate and that was terrible. 
I am proud to be working class, I strive to be working class. I’m proud of who iv become and where I am. Especially considering where I came from. But the day I become a snob is the day I fail my family.

But I promise you my IQ is amongst the top 10% of everyone on this site. 
 

I have brought my house. I drive around in. 22 plate. I am the director of two businesses. But my feet are firmly on the ground and I’m honest enough to realise that opportunities are the biggest step you will ever meet. But I also have a great friend d who is a high ranking member of the masons. And he is the hardest working person I know…. He would still class himself as working class.

Fools label others my friend. Choose your own path and destiny and be proud of who you are.

It’s obvious you don’t know what the true meaning of what working class is you seem to think it’s some form of badge of honour, I can only suggest you look in a dictionary to get a better understanding, you maybe hardworking and I wouldn’t take that away from you, as there are many middle class, and upper classes that are equally hard working. If you wish to define yourself as working class and Everton Football supporters then fair enough you carry on my friend. But remember it’s not a nostalgic moment from the past it was a terminology used to describe people who had poor jobs and poor education. 

[Matt]

59 minutes ago, Palfy said:

It’s obvious you don’t know what the true meaning of what working class is you seem to think it’s some form of badge of honour, I can only suggest you look in a dictionary to get a better understanding, you maybe hardworking and I wouldn’t take that away from you, as there are many middle class, and upper classes that are equally hard working. If you wish to define yourself as working class and Everton Football supporters then fair enough you carry on my friend. But remember it’s not a nostalgic moment from the past it was a terminology used to describe people who had poor jobs and poor education. 

"working class

/ˌwəːkɪŋ ˈklɑːs/

noun

the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work."

No mention of intelligence at all, it's about opportunities. 

[Palfy]

29 minutes ago, Matt said:

"working class

/ˌwəːkɪŋ ˈklɑːs/

noun

the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work."

No mention of intelligence at all, it's about opportunities. 

There is mention of poor education and I didn’t think I said intelligence, to me education and intelligence are to separate things, you can still be intelligent without having a good formal education. You can be intelligent enough not to walk in front of a bus but not educated enough to do simple math tasks. 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

You need to move forward in your life mate and step away from this fantasy you’ve surrounded yourself with, working class means a person of low intelligence and low skill not someone who works hard, our society has been broken up into 3 classes working class, middle class and upper class, working class doesn’t define you as someone who works harder than anyone else, it defines you as a labourer or semi skilled with little education or they could be called a pleb a person of low social class. All teams and players should work hard those with more ability can make it look easier than those without, football can’t just be about working hard and fitness what makes the difference between a successful team isn’t just athleticism it’s equally talent and the tactical ability to bring all those qualities together to become better. Teams like City, Utd , Liverpool, they all work hard but they are successful for a multitude of reasons other than just working hard. But this belief you have created for yourself of Everton just being successful due to hard work and their supporters being working class is for dreamer’s and Hollywood movie makers, football clubs have moved on from fifties and sixties as a sport for the low paid, with billionaire owners players and managers on millions of pounds a year and ticket prices to high in some cases for people no matter how working class you are. 

@Palfy yes you did mate and the definition doesn't mention education either.

It all comes down to opportunity, and the working class have fewer of them.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

@Palfy yes you did mate and the definition doesn't mention education either.

It all comes down to opportunity, and the working class have fewer of them.

This needs to be moved to another thread Matt were I will gladly debate with you pros and cons of the classes.  Yet in your definition is someone who has their own business with people working for them and owns their own home working class. 

[Formby]

8 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I never forgot that and, when meeting new people for the first time, sometimes take a quick glance at their shoes.

Note to self - if ever I have the good fortune to meet Steve, wear a polished brogue on the left foot and a dirty trainer on the right so he can't make assumptions about me.  

[Palfy]

The definition by Cambridge on working class is as follows.

Basic low level unskilled or semi skilled workers, such as those with no college or university education, this includes occupations such as factory workers and labourers. 
 

“Working class” is a socioeconomic term used to describe persons in a social class marked by their jobs that provide low pay, require limited skills, or physical labour. Typically, working class jobs have reduced education requirements. 

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, Palfy said:

This needs to be moved to another thread Matt were I will gladly debate with you pros and cons of the classes.  Yet in your definition is someone who has their own business with people working for them and owns their own home working class. 

Happy to but it's not my definition, that's Oxford English Dictionary's definition.

[Cornish Steve]

How does this play out in practice?

After completing my PhD, I started my first real job in central London. The closest I could afford to live was in the suburbs of Rugby. It was during the time when Mrs Thatcher pursued a policy whereby families could purchase their council house at a discount, leading to mixed estates where some houses remained council houses and others were now private homes. My wife and I purchased a terraced house in such an estate. Every day, I would cycle to the railway station, take the 92-mile train journey to Euston, and then walk 30 minutes to my office just off Oxford Street, leaving home in the morning when it was dark and arriving home at night when it was dark.

Some on the railway station knew that I lived on a council estate, so I was shunned and looked down on. My neighbors saw me leaving for work in a suit, so I was shunned by them as well for not being working class. Frankly, life was miserable and hard. When you took into account the cost of daily train fare, I was earning significantly less than a next-door neighbor who lived solely on unemployment benefit. Indeed, some suggested I quit my job and go on the dole since it would mean a significant "pay raise". That neighbor had a car; we couldn't afford one. That neighbor took holidays; we never could.

How does class work in situations like this? Was my education or my income the best judge of class? Does wearing a suit preclude one from being accepted by neighbors in a working class neighborhood? Does living on a council estate stop someone from being accepted as a professional working in the big city? Class is a complicated thing, but the implications on a person's life in Britain, at that time, were significant. I found the pressure on my family so unreasonable that class structure was one of two principal reasons why I chose to leave the country.

[Romey 1878]

2 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

How does this play out in practice?

It doesn't, it's yet another label to divide everyone while the cunts that seek to rule stay in that role.

Class is a construct, nothing more. Only fools put any stock in it and judge themselves and others by that label.

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

It doesn't, it's yet another label to divide everyone while the cunts that seek to rule stay in that role.

Class is a construct, nothing more. Only fools put any stock in it and judge themselves and others by that label.

Well that saves me a lot of effort

 

[Matt]

Being proud of where you came from is not something I've ever understood. So I don't really care about the labels. I believe I'm the anthisis of evil being a middle aged, married, straight, middle-class white man. Labels mean fuck all.

Technically speaking my parents were working class but, with a lot of time and effort, they moved themselves into the middle class. That's not to say they stopped working hard, far from it. So work rate isn't a class thing and wasn't being implied by Shukes.

What I think he was saying, was that working class jobs tend to be physically intensive, putting your body on the line and that translates with the sport we love. So for the working class, the poorer areas, hard graft from millionaires is an absolute minimum requirement because the people watching put their bodies on the line for a millionth of the financial reward and need something to connect with. That's something we've been missing since Moshiri took over, he's never understood the club. 

[patto]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Being proud of where you came from is not something I've ever understood. So I don't really care about the labels. I believe I'm the anthisis of evil being a middle aged, married, straight, middle-class white man. Labels mean fuck all.

Technically speaking my parents were working class but, with a lot of time and effort, they moved themselves into the middle class. That's not to say they stopped working hard, far from it. So work rate isn't a class thing and wasn't being implied by Shukes.

What I think he was saying, was that working class jobs tend to be physically intensive, putting your body on the line and that translates with the sport we love. So for the working class, the poorer areas, hard graft from millionaires is an absolute minimum requirement because the people watching put their bodies on the line for a millionth of the financial reward and need something to connect with. That's something we've been missing since Moshiri took over, he's never understood the club. 

So is that because he’s not working class 

[Romey 1878]

11 minutes ago, patto said:

So is that because he’s not working class 

It's because he's a fucking idiot.

[Matt]

37 minutes ago, patto said:

So is that because he’s not working class 

Moshiri? He's been blinded by ego, he's never bought into the club in the way we really needed him to in order to be successful. Throwing money around, with the best intentions, was never, ever going to fly with us. He's done a lot of good but understanding the club and its people was never on his agenda in my opinion. 

[patto]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

Moshiri? He's been blinded by ego, he's never bought into the club in the way we really needed him to in order to be successful. Throwing money around, with the best intentions, was never, ever going to fly with us. He's done a lot of good but understanding the club and its people was never on his agenda in my opinion. 

It would have worked great had we had better scouts and management 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

How does this play out in practice?

After completing my PhD, I started my first real job in central London. The closest I could afford to live was in the suburbs of Rugby. It was during the time when Mrs Thatcher pursued a policy whereby families could purchase their council house at a discount, leading to mixed estates where some houses remained council houses and others were now private homes. My wife and I purchased a terraced house in such an estate. Every day, I would cycle to the railway station, take the 92-mile train journey to Euston, and then walk 30 minutes to my office just off Oxford Street, leaving home in the morning when it was dark and arriving home at night when it was dark.

Some on the railway station knew that I lived on a council estate, so I was shunned and looked down on. My neighbors saw me leaving for work in a suit, so I was shunned by them as well for not being working class. Frankly, life was miserable and hard. When you took into account the cost of daily train fare, I was earning significantly less than a next-door neighbor who lived solely on unemployment benefit. Indeed, some suggested I quit my job and go on the dole since it would mean a significant "pay raise". That neighbor had a car; we couldn't afford one. That neighbor took holidays; we never could.

How does class work in situations like this? Was my education or my income the best judge of class? Does wearing a suit preclude one from being accepted by neighbors in a working class neighborhood? Does living on a council estate stop someone from being accepted as a professional working in the big city? Class is a complicated thing, but the implications on a person's life in Britain, at that time, were significant. I found the pressure on my family so unreasonable that class structure was one of two principal reasons why I chose to leave the country.

You moved to America where they have the same criteria as here when it comes to working class, I read that in America you are considered working class if you do a menial job such as stacking shelves in a store or working as a lower scale office clerk, which I assume means menial admin, then it goes on to say don’t have a college degree. So not a lot of difference to the terminology used here.  

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, patto said:

It would have worked great had we had better scouts and management 

Or given people a chance to actually work, which would've been a lot easier had he understood the club and its supporters. But he didn't which is why he's largely failed.

[Hafnia]

12 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Years ago, when I worked in central London, you'd sometimes see researchers on the street seeking short interviews with certain types of people. These researchers were always looking at the ground. Why? I learned that shoes are the single best indicator of a person's class. (Incidentally, back then at least, there were five: upper, upper middle, middle, lower middle, and working class. For the record, I fit best the definition of lower middle class.) Someone who's upper class tends to wear expensive and well-polished shoes, whereas someone who's working class takes very little care of their shoes. Wealth can be deceptive - you can be poor and upper class, and you can be rich and working class - but shoes less so.

I never forgot that and, when meeting new people for the first time, sometimes take a quick glance at their shoes.

Load of bollocks. 

I have £100+ pairs of shoes, shoes that cost £20, just in the same way that I would play golf in a £70 j lindeberg polo or a £15 bargain polo. 

I’m the same person. 
 

I enjoy nice watches and would happily wear a variety of watches for a variety of different occasions.  
 

I like nice things but realise that it’s important to be who I am, not what people think a brand makes me. 
 

John gotti and the Kray twins wore nice shoes…. 

Reminds me, I’m doing some work on social diversity over the next week. 
 

 

[Palfy]

50 minutes ago, Matt said:

Or given people a chance to actually work, which would've been a lot easier had he understood the club and its supporters. But he didn't which is why he's largely failed.

I don’t think it was so much him understanding the club, it was more a case of he thought he new better than the people he employed and interfered with decisions that he never had the knowledge required to make a proper judgement on. He is an Accountant so you would have thought he could have kept control of the finances but he wasn’t even able to do that properly. 

[Hafnia]

13 hours ago, Palfy said:

You need to move forward in your life mate and step away from this fantasy you’ve surrounded yourself with, working class means a person of low intelligence and low skill not someone who works hard, our society has been broken up into 3 classes working class, middle class and upper class, working class doesn’t define you as someone who works harder than anyone else, it defines you as a labourer or semi skilled with little education or they could be called a pleb a person of low social class. All teams and players should work hard those with more ability can make it look easier than those without, football can’t just be about working hard and fitness what makes the difference between a successful team isn’t just athleticism it’s equally talent and the tactical ability to bring all those qualities together to become better. Teams like City, Utd , Liverpool, they all work hard but they are successful for a multitude of reasons other than just working hard. But this belief you have created for yourself of Everton just being successful due to hard work and their supporters being working class is for dreamer’s and Hollywood movie makers, football clubs have moved on from fifties and sixties as a sport for the low paid, with billionaire owners players and managers on millions of pounds a year and ticket prices to high in some cases for people no matter how working class you are. 

I couldn’t disagree more.  My parents generation left school in the 1950s

The 1950s was a shocking time, the necessity to take whatever work there was available did not define a persons intelligence - it defined the work ethic that got this country back in its feet after the war seen cities flatted and rationing being in place.  A work ethic that was instilled into me to make the most of the opportunities I got that they never. 
 

If only the country had more of these “working class” people and far less “work shy” people who themselves above work. 
 

bad take from you palfy, 

[Matt]

20 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Load of bollocks. 

I have £100+ pairs of shoes, shoes that cost £20, just in the same way that I would play golf in a £70 j lindeberg polo or a £15 bargain polo. 

I’m the same person. 
 

I enjoy nice watches and would happily wear a variety of watches for a variety of different occasions.  
 

I like nice things but realise that it’s important to be who I am, not what people think a brand makes me. 
 

John gotti and the Kray twins wore nice shoes…. 

Reminds me, I’m doing some work on social diversity over the next week. 
 

 

Unfortunately it's not a load of bollocks. Businesses still often judge on appearance, as if that actually means anything. I've gotten into trouble in the past refusing to wear a tie, told them it's my head and hands that do the work so it's OK. 

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I couldn’t disagree more.  My parents generation left school in the 1950s

The 1950s was a shocking time, the necessity to take whatever work there was available did not define a persons intelligence - it defined the work ethic that got this country back in its feet after the war seen cities flatted and rationing being in place. 
 

If only the country had more of these “working class” people and far less “work shy” people who themselves above work. 
 

bad take from you palfy, 

That is the definition of working class mate not written by me, I will concede that I should have said of low education as stated and not intelligence as I quoted so that’s my bad. I have started a thread on classes in off topic discussions, so join in there so we don’t clog up the Dyche thread.  

[Hafnia]

Just now, Matt said:

Unfortunately it's not a load of bollocks. Businesses still often judge on appearance, as if that actually means anything. I've gotten into trouble in the past refusing to wear a tie, told them it's my head and hands that do the work so it's OK. 

It is a load of bollocks because if people were fluid in their thinking then they should realise that most geniuses are very individual and eccentric. I worked with a lad with Asperger’s (undiagnosed, my diagnosis!) - holes all over his jumper, splits in shoes,

He got treated like shit cos he didn’t look the part - he had a job on the phones but said he understood Microsoft and wanted to try to see if he could work on our team. Slight understatement, the fucker invented ethical hacking from what I could see. 
 

I recommend him to a manager in the business, he came back a few months later and said “fook me, he’s incredible”.   Still sat at his desk rolling ciggies and wearing jumpers that you wouldn’t wipe a car down with.   People judged him for what he wore - not what he could do.

there are exceptions to the rules. In my bouts of depression I look a mess, will wear anything, not brush my hair etc.