Definition of the classes in society

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

That is the definition of working class mate not written by me, I will concede that I should have said of low education as stated and not intelligence as I quoted so that’s my bad. I have started a thread on classes in off topic discussions, so join in there so we don’t clog up the Dyche thread.  

That fair enough, I know too many people who never got the education their IQ deserved because lack of social diversity.

[Matt]

23 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

It is a load of bollocks because if people were fluid in their thinking then they should realise that most geniuses are very individual and eccentric. I worked with a lad with Asperger’s (undiagnosed, my diagnosis!) - holes all over his jumper, splits in shoes,

He got treated like shit cos he didn’t look the part - he had a job on the phones but said he understood Microsoft and wanted to try to see if he could work on our team. Slight understatement, the fucker invented ethical hacking from what I could see. 
 

I recommend him to a manager in the business, he came back a few months later and said “fook me, he’s incredible”.   Still sat at his desk rolling ciggies and wearing jumpers that you wouldn’t wipe a car down with.   People judged him for what he wore - not what he could do.

there are exceptions to the rules. In my bouts of depression I look a mess, will wear anything, not brush my hair etc.

It should be a load of bollocks but unfortunately a lot of society is stuck in the good old days...

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

You moved to America where they have the same criteria as here when it comes to working class, I read that in America you are considered working class if you do a menial job such as stacking shelves in a store or working as a lower scale office clerk, which I assume means menial admin, then it goes on to say don’t have a college degree. So not a lot of difference to the terminology used here.  

It's very very different in Britain. In London, I initially worked with a team of people who were all Oxbridge graduates. While they were very nice and welcoming guys, I was always aware that I came from the wrong place, spoke with the wrong accent, and went to the wrong university. A few years later, I led a multinational project involving a team in Britain and had to speak with the principal consultant about using the same editing tools as everyone else. His response was "Lord so-and-so is my uncle. I do things my way, OK?". The fact that I was leading the project was immaterial; he pulled rank based on class. I've never experienced anything like that in the US.

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

It is a load of bollocks because if people were fluid in their thinking then they should realise that most geniuses are very individual and eccentric. I worked with a lad with Asperger’s (undiagnosed, my diagnosis!) - holes all over his jumper, splits in shoes,

He got treated like shit cos he didn’t look the part - he had a job on the phones but said he understood Microsoft and wanted to try to see if he could work on our team. Slight understatement, the fucker invented ethical hacking from what I could see. 
 

I recommend him to a manager in the business, he came back a few months later and said “fook me, he’s incredible”.   Still sat at his desk rolling ciggies and wearing jumpers that you wouldn’t wipe a car down with.   People judged him for what he wore - not what he could do.

there are exceptions to the rules. In my bouts of depression I look a mess, will wear anything, not brush my hair etc.

I agree with your reasoning and your thinking; I'm simply pointing out my experiences in Britain and with British companies. It's quite different in the US.

Years ago, I was selling to a technology company in Massachusetts and meeting with their executive team. When the meeting started, we're all wearing suits, including four VPs from that company. After about 20 minutes, the door opened, and this scruffy guy in jeans wheeled in a tray with coffee and snacks. Surprisingly, he hung around for a few minutes until we stopped to take a break. I always make a point of saying "hello" to people and thanking them when appropriate, so I did the same to this guy. He shook my hand and said "I'm Andy XXX, the CEO. I own this company." As you rightly say, appearances can be deceiving.

In contrast, I met with a VP of technology at BT. Since I'd heard his name, I went over and said "Hello. You must be Dave." His response was "No. I'm Doctor David XXX." With great pleasure, I responded: "Nice to meet you. I'm Doctor Steve" (since I, too, have a PhD). Sometimes it's possible to put an immediate end to snobbery.

[Palfy]

50 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

That fair enough, I know too many people who never got the education their IQ deserved because lack of social diversity.

A good education opens so many doors where as a poor education limits you to the opportunities available to you. Can you imagine how hard life must have been in 1800s for the working classes working on the docks in the mines the textile mills the farming industries the pottery mills the list could go on, where you haven’t had an education to help get you out of the cycle you find yourself and family in, where the property is a slum owned by who you work for, where you don’t earn enough money to feed your wife and children, where you can’t afford shoes for your children, where you can’t afford to buy medicine when you’re family or yourself fall ill and when you are unable to work you and your family are  evicted from the company home and cast into the streets. That was the reality of millions of people when working class was starting to be coined. Thank goodness things have got a lot better as the generations have rolled on and more and more people are being taken out of being classed working class, yet still have the desire to work hard for a better life. 

[Shukes]

11 hours ago, Palfy said:

It’s obvious you don’t know what the true meaning of what working class is you seem to think it’s some form of badge of honour, I can only suggest you look in a dictionary to get a better understanding, you maybe hardworking and I wouldn’t take that away from you, as there are many middle class, and upper classes that are equally hard working. If you wish to define yourself as working class and Everton Football supporters then fair enough you carry on my friend. But remember it’s not a nostalgic moment from the past it was a terminology used to describe people who had poor jobs and poor education. 

Agreed. 
Me and you are very very different people. That’s fine.

I do wear it as a badge of honour. I was in poverty and had to work hard to get where I am. I am very proud of that.  I had a terrible education and had to start from the bottom. So by your definition alone… I am working class.
 

I am not fussed what the Cambridge dictionary labels it as. The term was being used long before it was ever in a dictionary. 

But I’m not embarrassed or ashamed of it at all. I come from the days when Football was for the working class. 

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Agreed. 
Me and you are very very different people. That’s fine.

I do wear it as a badge of honour. I was in poverty and had to work hard to get where I am. I am very proud of that.  I had a terrible education and had to start from the bottom. So by your definition alone… I am working class.
 

I am not fussed what the Cambridge dictionary labels it as. The term was being used long before it was ever in a dictionary. 

But I’m not embarrassed or ashamed of it at all. I come from the days when Football was for the working class. 

Shukes mate we come from very similar backgrounds and I use to class myself as very working class, always lived on a council estate in a council owned house till the age of 24-25 left school with no exam results walked out of school as soon as block release started and never went back to take the exams I was put in for, didn’t go down well with my parents especially when the school threatened to charge my dad for the cost of the exams. Then got a job as an apprentice tool maker and left that after 18 months to become a hood carrier for a bricklaying contractor who drank in my local went from really shit money to £15.00 a day did that for about 6 months until shall we say went under the radar for 17 months then got a job as Ground worker until I left that when I was about 22/23 to start working with a goal keeper from a team I played for at the time to start taping and jointing, then not long after that we started a Drywall company together, and I bought my first home a council house we were living in when I was 24/25. I always worked hard whether physically until about 40 and mentally till now. I honestly wouldn’t call myself working class nor middle class or a snob thank you very much. If I had to sum myself up I would say I’ve never been scared of hard work in any dimension which has enabled me to be in the right place at the right time and I consider myself fortunate in that respect. I know I’ve upset you mate with my comments but I will always believe that you like me are not working class anymore as defined by what it says as working class, you are now someone imo who is successful through working hard to achieve your goals  

 

[Palfy]

Just read in Wikipedia that you are excluded from being working class if you derive your livelihood from business ownership or the labour of others.

[Formby]

Showing class is the main thing and you can do that from any background.

[Shukes]

19 hours ago, Palfy said:

Shukes mate we come from very similar backgrounds and I use to class myself as very working class, always lived on a council estate in a council owned house till the age of 24-25 left school with no exam results walked out of school as soon as block release started and never went back to take the exams I was put in for, didn’t go down well with my parents especially when the school threatened to charge my dad for the cost of the exams. Then got a job as an apprentice tool maker and left that after 18 months to become a hood carrier for a bricklaying contractor who drank in my local went from really shit money to £15.00 a day did that for about 6 months until shall we say went under the radar for 17 months then got a job as Ground worker until I left that when I was about 22/23 to start working with a goal keeper from a team I played for at the time to start taping and jointing, then not long after that we started a Drywall company together, and I bought my first home a council house we were living in when I was 24/25. I always worked hard whether physically until about 40 and mentally till now. I honestly wouldn’t call myself working class nor middle class or a snob thank you very much. If I had to sum myself up I would say I’ve never been scared of hard work in any dimension which has enabled me to be in the right place at the right time and I consider myself fortunate in that respect. I know I’ve upset you mate with my comments but I will always believe that you like me are not working class anymore as defined by what it says as working class, you are now someone imo who is successful through working hard to achieve your goals  

 

I did take exception mate. But only because I am a firm believer of knowing where your roots are. I am honestly proud to call myself working class. 
Sorry if I bit to much Palfy, but I’m a proud man and that is a major weakness of mine. 

I know you say by definition I’m not. But I’m sitting here responding to this message literally in my work clothes haha. The council estate I came from weren’t working class. Most of them didn’t have a job. They can’t be classed as working class if they don’t work.

I try to stay away from sob stories as I know if i started people would be shocked. That’s not to say I’ve had it worse than anyone else. But I do feel it hasn’t been easy. 
 

For me working class is a class of people that works hard. I don’t care much for how a few Cambridge scholars have decided to define it. That shows me they aren’t really in touch with the people. It says it in the name for me…. Working class.

I grew up watching an Everton team that were built from the working class. Andy Gray, Graeme Sharp, Peter Reid, the list goes on. This was a team that typified the working class. They had skill and grace, but most of all they had a belief that they could win, and they worked thier ass off for it. Again typified by Andy Gray and Reidy taking new players to the local for a pint when they joined.

Watching Howard’s way brings a tear to my eye. It reminds me of a time when our love for football was pretty much all we had. Everton were a working class team. Now we’re working hard to just stay up. But we’re working. Our manager points out each week that the number one priority is working hard for each other. 
 

Dyche is bringing the working class to the team again. And I have to say… I’m enjoying it so far.

I think it’s ok for us all to have our own interpretations of certain sayings and labels. I was brought up to be proud of working class and those roots are still with me. 

[Shukes]

18 hours ago, Palfy said:

Just read in Wikipedia that you are excluded from being working class if you derive your livelihood from business ownership or the labour of others.

I don’t think I take anymore from my business than anyone else. In fact I’m one of the lowest paid haha. 
I have a high IQ apparently. But I’m stupid also when it comes to business haha.

[Cornish Steve]

The real definition of working class...

 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

The real definition of working class...

 

When I saw you'd posted a video I was 100% certain it'd be this...

 

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, Shukes said:

I did take exception mate. But only because I am a firm believer of knowing where your roots are. I am honestly proud to call myself working class. 
Sorry if I bit to much Palfy, but I’m a proud man and that is a major weakness of mine. 

I know you say by definition I’m not. But I’m sitting here responding to this message literally in my work clothes haha. The council estate I came from weren’t working class. Most of them didn’t have a job. They can’t be classed as working class if they don’t work.

I try to stay away from sob stories as I know if i started people would be shocked. That’s not to say I’ve had it worse than anyone else. But I do feel it hasn’t been easy. 
 

For me working class is a class of people that works hard. I don’t care much for how a few Cambridge scholars have decided to define it. That shows me they aren’t really in touch with the people. It says it in the name for me…. Working class.

I grew up watching an Everton team that were built from the working class. Andy Gray, Graeme Sharp, Peter Reid, the list goes on. This was a team that typified the working class. They had skill and grace, but most of all they had a belief that they could win, and they worked thier ass off for it. Again typified by Andy Gray and Reidy taking new players to the local for a pint when they joined.

Watching Howard’s way brings a tear to my eye. It reminds me of a time when our love for football was pretty much all we had. Everton were a working class team. Now we’re working hard to just stay up. But we’re working. Our manager points out each week that the number one priority is working hard for each other. 
 

Dyche is bringing the working class to the team again. And I have to say… I’m enjoying it so far.

I think it’s ok for us all to have our own interpretations of certain sayings and labels. I was brought up to be proud of working class and those roots are still with me. 

Dyche has brought hard work to the team, and next season hopefully we will be in a secure position and then he can work on our control of the ball when we are in possession, improvement has to be an ongoing process and our ability to give the ball away so cheaply needs working on. 

[Cornish Steve]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

When I saw you'd posted a video I was 100% certain it'd be this...

They did a newer version...

 

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Dyche has brought hard work to the team, and next season hopefully we will be in a secure position and then he can work on our control of the ball when we are in possession, improvement has to be an ongoing process and our ability to give the ball away so cheaply needs working on. 

Palfy, get outta here! This is the great class debate.

[Palfy]

Watching the Video of Thelwell talking about his father he said something that will resonate with a lot of people on here when he spoke about working class values. He said something along the these lines that his father had instilled working class values in him which hit a chord with me, I know I can’t go round claiming I am now working class my circumstances today are so different from when I was child and young man, but I can say I’m proud of my roots and the working class values that my mother and father instilled in me, and I still hold as my banner as I go through life. I will be the first to admit that I have at times in my life fallen below the standards that my parents would have expected from me and I do regret the hurt I know I caused them at times. There maybe not many on here who can truly claim to be working class, but most can claim to come from a traditional working class family, background and community and still hold the values of being working class if not the disadvantages of being truly working class. 

[Gwlad]

Born in the south and got my values from my down to earth Lancastrian parents.

[Palfy]

I’m still in Spain back in UK on Friday, I’m not looking forward to my return the weather has been fantastic here low to mid twenties for nearly three and half weeks, just two days rain then sunshine the rest of the time. I hoping I’ve missed the worst of the bad weather you lads have been having, from what I’ve seen on the news and my kids have been telling me it’s been horrendous, so dreading my return, only good thing will be is that I will be able to fill you in a lot more on the pending appeal, I’m sure you can’t wait  

I’ve mistakenly put this in the wrong thread, I am guilty and have no mitigating circumstances to why I did, deduct me as many points as you see fit. 

Edited January 23 by Palfy
Wrong thread

[Formby]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I’m still in Spain back in UK on Friday, I’m not looking forward to my return the weather has been fantastic here low to mid twenties for nearly three and half weeks, just two days rain then sunshine the rest of the time. I hoping I’ve missed the worst of the bad weather you lads have been having, from what I’ve seen on the news and my kids have been telling me it’s been horrendous, so dreading my return, only good thing will be is that I will be able to fill you in a lot more on the pending appeal, I’m sure you can’t wait  

I’ve mistakenly put this in the wrong thread, I am guilty and have no mitigating circumstances to why I did, deduct me as many points as you see fit. 

Do we have a holiday / weather thread? Maybe we should! 

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I’m still in Spain back in UK on Friday, I’m not looking forward to my return the weather has been fantastic here low to mid twenties for nearly three and half weeks, just two days rain then sunshine the rest of the time. I hoping I’ve missed the worst of the bad weather you lads have been having, from what I’ve seen on the news and my kids have been telling me it’s been horrendous, so dreading my return, only good thing will be is that I will be able to fill you in a lot more on the pending appeal, I’m sure you can’t wait  

I’ve mistakenly put this in the wrong thread, I am guilty and have no mitigating circumstances to why I did, deduct me as many points as you see fit. 

Hey, what would a thread be without covering a wide range of irrelevant topics?

[Gwlad]

5 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Hey, what would a thread be without covering a wide range of irrelevant topics?

Wouldn't be TT for sure.

[Matt]

On 23/01/2024 at 16:13, Palfy said:

I’m still in Spain back in UK on Friday, I’m not looking forward to my return the weather has been fantastic here low to mid twenties for nearly three and half weeks, just two days rain then sunshine the rest of the time. I hoping I’ve missed the worst of the bad weather you lads have been having, from what I’ve seen on the news and my kids have been telling me it’s been horrendous, so dreading my return, only good thing will be is that I will be able to fill you in a lot more on the pending appeal, I’m sure you can’t wait  

I’ve mistakenly put this in the wrong thread, I am guilty and have no mitigating circumstances to why I did, deduct me as many points as you see fit. 

You can't copy paste a link but you can find a thread that's not been commented on in a month by mistake?! You truly are TTs IT Enigma 

 

[Palfy]

9 hours ago, Matt said:

You can't copy paste a link but you can find a thread that's not been commented on in a month by mistake?! You truly are TTs IT Enigma 

 

Cheers mate I’ll take that as compliment, even if it wasn’t meant to be