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Matt

Should We Really Be Worried?

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lets be honest with ourselves, we werent going to win the title, but 4th/5th was a real possibility, and i think it still is.

 

15 points this time last year (if my maths is correct - taken from below link), 3 more than we currently have. But out massive run of successful results didnt start until December, after we got beat 3-2 by Villa. December is 4 weeks away so hopefully we can have the same response like last year but sooner. On top of that, our players are starting to come back, unlike last year where they started to drop like flies.

 

after the Villa result, we got beat 3 times throughout the rest of the season (in the league), drew 7 and won 11. Not brilliant, but with no strikers and losing Arteta and later on Jags, we finished 5th on a skeleton squad which i think we all agree was a great acheivement.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C._season_2008%E2%80%9309

 

sorry if this is badly worded, bit hectic at work today, but hopefully my point is clear enough; we're not that far off where we were this time last year and have key players coming back from injury rather than getting injured. Is that not something to be optimistic about?

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I don't think we need to be panicking but I wouldn't definately be concerned over keeping our european place.

 

we may have done that well last year and I do expect that we'll have a better second half to the season than the first but we've still got a lot of players out and tough games coming up that we need to try to get points from.

 

Our next 3 league games are all away from home with Bilya missing them all if we don't have Piennar back then we will really be lacking any creative flair in the team.

 

The games are West ham, Man utd and Hull and we really need to get at least 4 points from those 3 games if not 5 or 6. We definately can't afford to lose to both West ham and Hull.

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Yeh the problem this year is the fixtures we have coming up. Weve had a relatively easy start to the season and now we have the better teams and if we realistically do want to be in top 6 then we will have to take some decent points against these teams which we havent done in recent years.

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fair points by both of you, but even if we have tougher games in the second half of the season, hopefully we will have a stronger squad than we did last year which would balance it out?

 

West Ham and Hull should be 6 points and we could get a point against Utd, especially since the diving nancy has gone now. Its going to be a tough runup to Christmas, but when has that ever been easy for us? I just think with players coming back rather than getting injured (he says tapping every piece of wood in sight!) we're going into the festive period better off...

 

well, heres hoping anyway...

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fair points by both of you, but even if we have tougher games in the second half of the season, hopefully we will have a stronger squad than we did last year which would balance it out?

 

West Ham and Hull should be 6 points and we could get a point against Utd, especially since the diving nancy has gone now. Its going to be a tough runup to Christmas, but when has that ever been easy for us? I just think with players coming back rather than getting injured (he says tapping every piece of wood in sight!) we're going into the festive period better off...

 

well, heres hoping anyway...

 

We thought that about Burnley, Stoke, and Wolves, but that did'nt turn out to be the case.

 

My own personal view is that we should have had at least 20 points by now, our poor form and a small squad as once again proved to be our downfall. I'm not in a state of panic, but unless there is a substantial improvement over a prolonged period, i doubt very much if we will get anywhere near the top 6, i think its 8th 9th or 10th position for us this season. :(

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Through 10 league fixtures this season we've faced Arsenal, Burnley, Wigan, Fulham, Blackburn, Pompey, Stoke, Wolves, Bolton, and Villa.

 

At this point last season, it had been Blackburn, West Brom, Pompey, Stoke, Hull, RS, Newcastle, Arsenal, Man United, and Bolton.

 

If we did have 3 more points, 12 right now is slightly disappointing since the opposition was maybe a bit better for the first 10 fixtures of 2008; 3 top four, a Pompey team seeing far better results, and a Hull side that, as I remember, was winning quite a bit early in the season. If you factor in 3 away victories (W Brom, Stoke, Bolton) and a 1-1 draw of United, it definitely looks a bit better. However, it must be said that we weren't missing first teamers in the double digits through long stretches of last autumn. If you then consider, as some have pointed out above, that this season will hopefully see players coming back into the team for the second half, an equal or slightly better performance in the last months does not seem completely unrealistic.

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Every team goes through bad patches, look at Liverpool now. Even with their crisis I expect them to be in the Top 6, don't jump at me because I know they don't have the injury problems we have but every team suffers this at some point. Europe is still on the cars in my opinion and I think that the comeback of Arteta/Jags will be phenominal.

 

We should stay optemistic, we can get to Europe again.

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lets be honest with ourselves, we werent going to win the title, but 4th/5th was a real possibility, and i think it still is.

 

15 points this time last year (if my maths is correct - taken from below link), 3 more than we currently have. But out massive run of successful results didnt start until December, after we got beat 3-2 by Villa. December is 4 weeks away so hopefully we can have the same response like last year but sooner. On top of that, our players are starting to come back, unlike last year where they started to drop like flies.

 

after the Villa result, we got beat 3 times throughout the rest of the season (in the league), drew 7 and won 11. Not brilliant, but with no strikers and losing Arteta and later on Jags, we finished 5th on a skeleton squad which i think we all agree was a great acheivement.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C._season_2008%E2%80%9309

 

sorry if this is badly worded, bit hectic at work today, but hopefully my point is clear enough; we're not that far off where we were this time last year and have key players coming back from injury rather than getting injured. Is that not something to be optimistic about?

 

 

You cant compare last season to this. Yes we did brilliantly to finish 5th but if were being honest that was as much down to Villas appalling form in the second half of the season and the fact it was basically a 2 horse race for 5th

 

This season Villa are better prepared to go the distance and then you also have to factor in the emergence of City, Spurs and Sunderland

I predicted we would finish anywhere between 8th and 12th at the begining of the season and I still think that will be the case now

 

We will undoutedly be much stronger in the second half of the season but I think by the time our injured players get up to speed we will be too far behind

 

Our only chance of European football next year is by winning the FA Cup

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You cant compare last season to this. Yes we did brilliantly to finish 5th but if were being honest that was as much down to Villas appalling form in the second half of the season and the fact it was basically a 2 horse race for 5th

 

This season Villa are better prepared to go the distance and then you also have to factor in the emergence of City, Spurs and Sunderland

I predicted we would finish anywhere between 6th and 9th at the begining of the season and I still think that will be the case now

 

We will undoutedly be much stronger in the second half of the season but I think by the time our injured players get up to speed we will be too far behind

 

Our only chance of European football next year is by winning the FA Cup

 

Spot on mate saved me some typing time :P

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ok, i understand the pessimism but surely going into Decemeber with a near full strength squad is cause to boost hope (assuming Mick's blog is correct!). Yeah, we have tough games coming up, easy games have gone by where we have lost points and the other teams around us werent as strong last year, but come on! Hull this time last year were pushing 4th! Its too early in the season to write us off and you never know whats going to happen. if we continue to play like we have been doing then yeah, midtable is likely. But surely when we get Pienaar, Jags, Neville and Arteta back, we are going to have such a strong team that noone should really stop us! Also, if Liverpool keep playing the say they are (long may it continue and long may Rafa and the yanks stay in charge!) they wont finish top 4, which means theres an extra plcae up for grabs. Spurs are doing well, as are Sunderland and City, but i dont see them going the whole way.

 

right, im off to the doctors, back to this later!

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You cant compare last season to this.

If you can't compare one season to another how do you know if you're getting better or worse :mellow: ?

I'd have thought the only true measure of progress is how you're doing compared to how you've done so comparison is essential :) .

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I agree with Mike that you need comparisons so lets compare.

If we had played the same teams as we had last season and gained the same points, you could say that we are no worse off, but last season we had played the top 4 clubs, Man utd, L'pool, Arsenal, and Hull (who where flying at the time).

This season we have only played one of the present top 4 (Arsenal) the rest have been teams that we would normally be looking to get maximum points from, therefore i think we are a lot worse off now than we were last season. Thats my slant on it. :)

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in my opinion, we have a much much stronger squad. but none of them are fit enough for it to matter.

enjoy europe this year boys, the money men are about to take over.

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in my opinion, we have a much much stronger squad. but none of them are fit enough for it to matter.

enjoy europe this year boys, the money men are about to take over.

 

A stronger squad does not necessarily mean we have improved, it would only keep us on a par with other teams that have also improved, but in our case City, Spurs, Villa, and even Sunderland have spent more than us so we havent improved at all, in fact we are starting to slip backwards. :(

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A stronger squad does not necessarily mean we have improved, it would only keep us on a par with other teams that have also improved, but in our case City, Spurs, Villa, and even Sunderland have spent more than us so we havent improved at all, in fact we are starting to slip backwards. :(

didnt city, spurs and villa all spend more than us last year too? didnt help them then did it. just out of curiosity, anyone remember how their respective starts to the season went? I remember spurs having a nightmare (2 wins in 10 or something?) but the others?

 

how have we slipped backwards?! thats crazy! we have a bigger, stronger squad which has to mean we have improved the team! The things that have dipped are form, confidence and more injuries but these will improve as we go along. just keep the faith!

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didnt city, spurs and villa all spend more than us last year too? didnt help them then did it. just out of curiosity, anyone remember how their respective starts to the season went? I remember spurs having a nightmare (2 wins in 10 or something?) but the others?

 

how have we slipped backwards?! thats crazy! we have a bigger, stronger squad which has to mean we have improved the team! The things that have dipped are form, confidence and more injuries but these will improve as we go along. just keep the faith!

 

Read my last post, a bigger and stronger squad only keps you on a par with other teams who have also improved their squads.

"How have we slipped backwards" just look at our position compared to the teams previously mentioned. ;)

 

 

Total

Team

1 Chelsea

2 Manchester Utd

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City

5 Tottenham

6 Liverpool

7 Aston Villa

8 Sunderland

9 Stoke City

10 Burnley

11 Fulham

12 Wigan Athletic

13 Everton

14 Birmingham

15 Bolton

16 Wolverhampton

17 Blackburn

18 Hull City

19 West Ham United

20 Portsmouth

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You got a point Bill man. However, every team has their slips. Villa's lasted the whole second half of the season because they lost two players? who says that wont happen again?

 

Yeah City have spent, so have Spurs but at the end of the day, Spurs have always out spent us, 3-1. and like its been mentioned, they won 2 of 10 at the start of last season. We've got more than that now, how do we know that Everton won't go on a run similar to theres in the new year and fly up the table. Its no need to panic though.

 

We wont finish near the top 4 however and it'll be a fight for European places but i predicted that in the poll that was released on here prior to the start of this season. A 7/8th position for us, im not too bothered because unfortunately unless we sell our soul, we're not going to hit the heights many Evertonians crave. and sometimes i still feel, as fans we want/ask just too much? How many teams would even be in the position we are now after losing the equivilant to a full starting 11????????????????? pretty much none, even United would struggle, The shite are definitely struggling (and thats with 5 players out), Arsenal would have to rely on kids...so its not doom and gloom.

 

We (unlike alot of teams) stil have raw spirit, desire and grit. we work on team ethics rather than technical brilliance. and tbh, thats how we've always been. so if you want to be particular, we are more like the Everton we used to want!

 

I critisise tactics sometimes admittingly, (look at the wolves and stoke threads) but we can't blame the players for playing tirelessly and constantly out of positions. of course some weeks they're going to be lethargic and frumpy, but you're being told that 3 games a week you have to put in 120% to cover for the injuries...its too much. To counter that, Moyes should have used it as an opportunity to blood some youngsters, he didn't, so thats why the remaining members of the 1st team are struggling mentaly. Once the players currently out, start to come back, phscologicaly, games will raise. we just have to be a bit patient sometimes!!

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Read my last post, a bigger and stronger squad only keps you on a par with other teams who have also improved their squads.

"How have we slipped backwards" just look at our position compared to the teams previously mentioned. ;)

i see where youre coming from (trying to at least) but i can only see it as an improvement from last season. If we had had the injuries weve had and not increased the size of the squad in the summer, the kids that we see on the bench wouldve been regulars instead, so the squad has improved in that respect. We are 3 points of the pace compared with last year, in the same amount of competitions (cant remember when we went out of Europe last year, so i may be wrong there) and players coming back from injury. Granted, we played harder games at the beginning of last season to get to the same position then but we're only 10 games in! there are 28 games to go.

 

As for these other teams; Villa will wonder along not doing much, Sunderland will stutter eventually, City will implode and Hughes wont be able to deal with it. Spurs can give a decent challenge for the CL places. Liverpool will be lucky to finish in the top 6 if they continue like this (and long may it do so!).

 

Every team will have a blip during the season, weve got ours out of the way early on (fingers crossed).

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All speculation at the moment (none the less interesting for that) but time will tell. Baz reckons we'll have everyone back fit by the end of the month....if that's the case and we avoid too many new injuries then we can fly for the rest of the season. With a full squad we have a powerful starting XI and numerous options on the bench....we can beat anyone anywhere on our day.

Personally I don't think Sunderland and Villa will stay the pace so European qualification may be a question of whether we can catch Spurs, City and/or Liverpool (depending on who wins the cups we may not need to catch any of them).

 

If we fail to make it then maybe that could be the opportunity for us (assuming the squad stays intact/improves a little) to push really hard in the league next season without the extra games and make the top four again.

 

Overall my view is that I'm disappointed with where we are but optimistic about where we can get.

And we're playing Benfica! In Europe! Stuff of fantasy a few years back. Enjoy it!

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A few personal thoughts on comparing seasons....results and opponents.

 

Wouldn't it be possible for Fulham fans to remark that as they lost at home to liverpool last seaon yet beat them 3-1 this season, then they must be improving!Last season Liverpool may well have fielded Gerrard, Alonso and a fully fit Torres and probably finished up with 11 players on the pitch and weren't short on confidence.Doesn't really work does it!Yet memories are short and some Fulham fans may well use games like that as a guide to their current form.

Hasn't it been said we should be beating Stoke at home, didn't they just win away at Spurs, who if you listen to some are way better than us... we at least got a point out of Stoke.Should have beaten Burnley!....then so should Man Utd!

 

The Everton of last season is a differen't one to this season, even forgetting injuries (if that's possible).....look at Cahill, not injured, but is he having a season as good as last? Fellaini better or worse, the list goes on.

 

The only way you can compare is if Evertons best 11 played Aston Villa's best 11, the ref was impartial and it were played on a level playing field....then repeat the process against every other team in the league......then you would know if you were improving.Not going to happen is it, even the a big slice of luck can change a game.

 

Doesn't happen does it! If we're led to believe everything we read, Evertons form was even effected by their manager being unsure about his contract, if that's the case

anythings possible, anything can cause poor form.You could have improved your squad size and not have too many injuries but if your managers sulking your form can suffer :blink:

Says it all really doesn't it!

The say the league table doesn't lie!..and over about 40 games you usually end up somewhere near where you should be, our league position in the last few years has, concidering our problems been very very good, credit Bill, Moyes, the players and the fans.If this season doesn't turn out quite as good as last year 5th and a cup final, then I can live with that, because there's always next season.....Now I'm getting a bit lost here :blink: .....what I trying to say...OH YES I don't think you can compare seasons for the reasons above.

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Interesting thread, good seeing other peeps slant on it, well done for starting it spiderman. ;)

very welcome! to be honest, its been so refreshing being able to get back on here after a 4 week absense, work has finally calmed down again. nothing like a bit of online banter!

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i'm not worried because i've anticipated this slide for a few seasons...middle table i fancy this season and without some investment we won't get our european football back any time soon

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If you can't compare one season to another how do you know if you're getting better or worse :mellow: ?

I'd have thought the only true measure of progress is how you're doing compared to how you've done so comparison is essential :) .

 

 

Im fairly sure you knew what I meant but I will try and clarify it anyway!

 

I was saying you cant compare last season to this with regards to the chase for 5th

 

I am saying that last season was a completely different scenario to this season in that last year it was a straight fight between us and Villa for 5th place and Villas spectacular capitulation was as much to do with us winning that particular race as anything Everton actually did

 

The I pointed out that there are other sides involved in the push for 5th this year with the likes of Spurs City & Sunderland and therefore there is no comparison to last season.

 

 

With regards to wether we have slipped back or improved I think that both are true. Our squad is definitely stronger than last seasons however so is everybody elses and other teams have improved more than we have so we have definitely slipped back down the pecking order

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I was saying you cant compare last season to this with regards to the chase for 5th

 

I am saying that last season was a completely different scenario to this season in that last year it was a straight fight between us and Villa for 5th place and Villas spectacular capitulation was as much to do with us winning that particular race as anything Everton actually did

 

The I pointed out that there are other sides involved in the push for 5th this year with the likes of Spurs City & Sunderland and therefore there is no comparison to last season.

Take your point but my point is that ultimately none of that is relevant.

 

In 100 years time Evertonians as sad as us on holoforums will look at the history of now and judge us as getting better or worse depending on whether we go up or down the league.

Our success (or lack of) is measured as a comparison to the teams we compete against...and that's the only way it can be measured.

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A stronger squad does not necessarily mean we have improved, it would only keep us on a par with other teams that have also improved, but in our case City, Spurs, Villa, and even Sunderland have spent more than us so we havent improved at all, in fact we are starting to slip backwards. :(

 

my second line (about money men taking over) was in reference to city spurs and villa getting stronger.

we have improved, its just other teams have improved more than us.

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i'm not worried because i've anticipated this slide for a few seasons...middle table i fancy this season and without some investment we won't get our european football back any time soon

 

Well isn't that being a little bit unfair ? you say you have anticipated a slide to mid table for a few seasons ? we have on paper a considerably stronger squad than last season,I think the board have done their job, it's not their fault that The Yak,Mikel,Jags,Peanuts,Ossie,Bainsy,Louis have all been long term injuries (nor is it Steve Rounds by the way)

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Well isn't that being a little bit unfair ? you say you have anticipated a slide to mid table for a few seasons ? we have on paper a considerably stronger squad than last season,I thing the board have done their job, it's not their fault that The Yak,Mikel,Jags,Peanuts,Ossie,Bainsy,Louis have all been long term injuries (nor is it Steve Rounds by the way)

 

no! we havent had a squad big enough for a long long time. even moyes knows it, hence his recent rantings in the press.

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Look, the fact is we can't print money to buy players or for that matter to compete on wages with some of the other clubs and I would hardly call Moyes occaisional refference to the size of the squad "rantings" The Premiership is in the big scheme of things a relatively new advent compared to the full history of our club and the game itself and it will be a marathon in the future not a sprint, we are RELATIVELY speaking in a far healthier state financialy than the majority of Prem Clubs and once the RIGHT investor has been found we will take our rightfull position for years to come, this may however take another year or two, in the meantime thank god for Moysie and keep the faith !

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to be honest, anyone that hasn't anticipated something like this is naive. our squad is tiny and we've struggled with injuries for a couple of seasons but managed to fight on with it...moyes has pointed it out and the club have continuously failed to sort it out....so no it's not unfair, it's in fact overdue. i'd love to say i'm sad about it but after banging that drum when people were 'moutinho this and moutinho that' and i was saying we needed more players for the squad, i lost a bit of interest in putting up with many evertonians and the club itself. we have a good starting 11, but first 11s don't win titles and they're not going to break into that top 4...squads achieve this.

 

nil satis nisi optimum, remember that? the stadium, the lack of addressing what we all knew needed addressing...it's something i consider not only a football motto but a personal one and i'll always think of it fondly - but with regards to everton - kind of ambiguous, it's been fading in the background for years.

 

[/rant]

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Take your point but my point is that ultimately none of that is relevant.

 

In 100 years time Evertonians as sad as us on holoforums will look at the history of now and judge us as getting better or worse depending on whether we go up or down the league.

Our success (or lack of) is measured as a comparison to the teams we compete against...and that's the only way it can be measured.

 

 

I can see what you are getting at but you have taken it all out of context

 

The original post was saying we can still challenge for 5th place and was using last season as an example I was saying its a different scenario and so my points are exremely relevant

 

I agree with you that our final league position will decide wether or not we have improved but the point wasnt how we judge our success it was about the race for 5th

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The games are West ham, Man utd and Hull and we really need to get at least 4 points from those 3 games if not 5 or 6. We definately can't afford to lose to both West ham and Hull.

 

I'm think we should really be getting 6 points from these 3 games but we won't get that :(

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