Danny Welbeck

[Sibdane]

 

Everyone knows I rate Martinez highly. But Welbeck would get found out at Everton. His link up play would be shown to be average and he wouldn't replace Lukaku's goal output either.

 

Welbeck isn't better than Jelavic either.

 

Jelavic's link-up play was atrocious. He is the very definition of "found out." He's a poacher and nothing more -- a poor man's Chicharito. I loved his spirit and wanted him to do well, but he petered out.

[Guest Nikica]

 

Here:

 

 

 

 

What is showing potential in terms of technique? I understand the ball isn't going to stick everytime, no player is capable of that, but it should be far more than it is. You can look at the occasions where Lukaku does do it well and think "ah, there's potential" or you can realize that this is the player he is technically and there's not going to be much improvement. The amount of time it takes Welbeck to control the ball, how close he manages to keep it to his body, the speed with which he moves his feet to get the second touch on the ball (I don't know how to describe this facet better, if Mirallas happens to know an English term for "handelingssnelheid" it would be much appreciated if he could share it) is just much better with him.

 

You also shouldn't make assumptions about my motivations, or about Shukes' motivations cause you've told him the "You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him" bullshit too. I'd have Welbeck even if they cost the same and I think they could end up much closer than people are expecting. Welbeck is a 23-year-old England international and they don't come cheap. Lukaku is incredibly overrated by the general public and I don't think a top team that is likely to play around the opposition's box a lot and might spend a lot of games struggling to break through a deep block is gonna rate him. Even Mourinho, who's teams play on the counter a lot more than some of the other top teams, doesn't seem to have much use for him. If he's going to cost more than De Bruyne that would be a travesty. You can probably find a number of posts of mine from before we were ever even linked with Lukaku as well where I say that Benteke (who's no technical marvel himself) is the better player because of his link up play.

 

 

 

Grow up.

 

I completely disagree with everything you're saying in regards to Lukaku and Welbeck's respective technical ability. I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens in future.

 

I wasn't deriding tactical discipline - I was laughing at your claims that he can score 20 goals a season despite the fact that his best attribute is his defensive work-rate.

 

As for telling me to 'grow up', there have been far more childish comments in here than mine - such as Shukes' little attacks on people and hafnia's 'you don't rate him because he's not popular' shite. Yet I notice you didn't tell them to grow up - probably because they're on your side.

 

I agree Benteke is better technically than Lukaku. If you want an overrated Belgian then look no further than Eden Hazard - a very good player but nauseatingly overrated relative to his peers. In fact the only reason I've been nice about him on here is that I didn't fancy being attacked by the Belgian contingent. I also think your country will crash and burn in the tournament, btw.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[Guest Nikica]

 

Jelavic's link-up play was atrocious. He is the very definition of "found out." He's a poacher and nothing more -- a poor man's Chicharito. I loved his spirit and wanted him to do well, but he petered out.

 

A poor man's Hernandez (please don't call him by his cringeworthy nickname)...his build up play is easily better than Hernandez's. You're judging him on a loss of confidence under Moyes. Hernandez is a shite footballer and misses more chances than you realise. Nobody is a poor man's version of him. He's been garbage recently for Mexico too.

 

Seeing as people like appealing to authority on here, I think I will lower myself and give it a go - you should go ask Niko Kovac if (in a hypothetical world)he'd rather have Hernandez or Welbeck than Jelavic. I'm pretty sure he'd boot you out of the team hotel, and Jelavic isn't even first choice for Croatia. I wonder how Jelavic would do playing for a champions-level team such as Man U (pre Moyes).

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[Steve_E]

 

I completely disagree with everything you're saying in regards to Lukaku and Welbeck's respective technical ability. I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens in future.

 

As for telling me to 'grow up', there have been far more childish comments in here than mine - such as Shukes' little attacks on people and hafnia's 'you don't rate him because he's not popular' shite. Yet I notice you didn't tell them to grow up - probably because they're on your side.

 

I agree Benteke is better technically than Lukaku. If you want an overrated Belgian then look no further than Eden Hazard - a very good player but nauseatingly overrated relative to his peers. In fact the only reason I've been nice about him on here is that I didn't fancy being attacked by the Belgian contingent. I also think your country will crash and burn in the tournament, btw.

 

Back on the ignore list you go.

[Guest Nikica]

 

Back on the ignore list you go.

 

I'm devastated that a Welbeck nut-hugger like yourself doesn't deem me worthy of discussion. Well played, genius.

 

Your usual MO of ignoring the parts you can't reply to. You clueless prick.

 

Just seen you were born in 1992...being ignored by a 22 year old kid who's been watching football for five minutes. Bellend.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[Sibdane]

 

A poor man's Hernandez (please don't call him by his cringeworthy nickname)...his build up play is easily better than Hernandez's. You're judging him on a loss of confidence under Moyes. Hernandez is a shite footballer and misses more chances than you realise. Nobody is a poor man's version of him. He's been garbage recently for Mexico too.

 

Seeing as people like appealing to authority on here, I think I will lower myself and give it a go - you should go ask Niko Kovac if (in a hypothetical world)he'd rather have Hernandez or Welbeck than Jelavic. I'm pretty sure he'd boot you out of the team hotel, and Jelavic isn't even first choice for Croatia. I wonder how Jelavic would do playing for a champions-level team such as Man U (pre Moyes).

 

No, please, whatever you do, don't lower yourself to our level.

[Guest Nikica]

 

No, please, whatever you do, don't lower yourself to our level.

 

Well, you did appeal to authority - even after I'd provided a link explaining why it's fallacious.

 

I actually like you but if you're going to be a prick then I will too.

[Sibdane]

 

Well, you did appeal to authority - even after I'd provided a link explaining why it's fallacious.

 

I actually like you but if you're going to be a prick then I will too.

 

I think you need to go back and read that Wikipedia page again. No one's claiming to be an expert.

 

I'll accept being a prick as long as you accept that you love to put people in groups who disagree with you.

[Peter H]

Nikicas posts are too long. This is the twitter era mate, keep it under 140 characters please.

 

 

We are not getting Lukaku so stop comparing the two.

[Guest Nikica]

 

I think you need to go back and read that Wikipedia page again. No one's claiming to be an expert.

 

I'll accept being a prick as long as you accept that you love to put people in groups who disagree with you.

 

That's not what an appeal to authority is. An appeal to authority is using expert knowledge to claim you're right. It's fallacious for an abundance of reasons, the primary one being that (in your case) you now have to agree with everything Martinez says. In fact, the nature of an appeal to authority is exactly what you say - people admit they aren't experts becuase they bow to what experts think.

 

Another issue with an appeal to authority is what if two experts have opposing opinions? What if a manager of equal ability to Martinez agrees with me that Welbeck is average? That's another flaw of the appeal to authority.

 

Who do I put in groups? This whole thing about me not accepting other views is hilarious: Shukes was the poster who demonstrated this personality flaw originally, and then hafnia in all his glory created straw men - he said that anyone who rates Lukaku above Welbeck is only doing so because they fall for popular opinion.

 

But yeah, it's me who refuses to accept opposing opinions and pigeon-holes people. Get a grip.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[Guest Nikica]

Anyway, none of this would have happened if not for that moron Shukes deliberately trying to wind people up. Prick.

[Sibdane]

 

That's not what an appeal to authority is. An appeal to authority is using expert knowledge to claim you're right. It's fallacious for an abundance of reasons, the primary one being that (in your case) you now have to agree with everything Martinez says. In fact, the nature of an appeal to authority is exactly what you say - people admit they aren't experts becuase they bow to what experts think.

 

Another issue with an appeal to authority is what if two experts have opposing opinions? What if a manager of equal ability to Martinez agrees with me that Welbeck is average? That's another flaw of the appeal tp authority.

 

Who do I put in groups? This whole thing about me not accepting other views is hilaruious: Shukes was the poster who demonstrated this personality flaw originally, and then hafnia in all his glory created straw men - he said that anyone who rates Lukaku above Welbeck is only doing so because they fall for popular opinion.

 

But yeah, it's me who refuses to accept opposing opinions and pigeon-holes people. Get a grip.

 

 

The fallacy in your argument is that Martinez has never come out and said that he rates Welbeck, so I'm not using his "expert knowledge" as a basis for my judgment of Welbeck. Jelavic was poor before Martinez (as evident in his last season and a half at Everton), as was Anichebe (all of his seasons here). Vellios apparently just didn't give a damn.

 

I said I would trust Martinez IF he acquired Welbeck, because so far his signings have worked for us (bar the injured).

 

I took issue with the fact that you think Everton would "drop like a stone" because of one player. I think that is ridiculous statement, and when you claim to that you don't want to stoop to our level (but do anyway), that is extremely condescending.

 

The funny thing is, is that if a highly-rated manager came out and agreed with YOU on Welbeck, then I could assume that you would be appealing to authority... or would you not, since you're apparently an expert, too? There's some fallacy for you.

Edited June 4, 2014 by TonkaRoost

[Guest Nikica]

 

 

The fallacy in your argument is that Martinez has never come out and said that he rates Welbeck, so I'm not using his "expert knowledge" as a basis for my judgment of Welbeck. Jelavic was poor before Martinez (as evident in his last season and a half at Everton), as was Anichebe (all of his seasons here). Vellios apparently just didn't give a damn.

 

I said I would trust Martinez IF he acquired Welbeck, because so far his signings have worked for us (bar the injured).

 

I took issue with the fact that you think Everton would "drop like a stone" because of one player. I think that is ridiculous statement, and when you claim to that you don't want to stoop to our level (but do anyway), that is extremely condescending.

 

The funny thing is, is that if a highly-rated manager came out and agreed with YOU on Welbeck, then I could assume that you would be appealing to authority... or would you not, since your apparently an expert, too? There's some fallacy for you.

 

Jelavic was playing under Moyes, who destroyed his confidence. He could still do a job at Everton as a backup.

 

No, he didn't. However, you said if he did you'd trust him i.e. hypothetically. Therefore, you're saying you'd go along with whatever he thinks even if you disagree. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that - as long as you recognise he might be wrong. The problem I have is when it's used to oppose people who are of an alternate option, which Shukes did explicitly and you did implicitly.

 

Sorry, but I think you would drop like a stone. A system like Martinez employs needs a good CF, and I think welbeck's overrated link-up play and poor finishing would cost you dearly. With him in your team and not Lukaku I'd expect you to finish about 8th. Not quite a stone in numbers, but a fair drop given that there's only about 8 or 9 good teams in the entire league. The entire bottom half ranges from average to piss poor.

 

Er no. I wouldn't say 'this guy agrees so I must be right' (hence why I said I was stooping to your level with the Kovac reference). I've never claimed to be an 'expert', but I give my honest view on players (and when I can be bothered I back up why I think what I do). If someone agreed with me it would be by coincidence - my views on Welbeck are what I have saw, nothing else. In fact people whose opinions on the game I respect disagree with me on Welbeck, but I stick to my guns as I don't defer to what others think - it's called free will and free thinking. What I don't tend to do is say 'hey, this manager agrees so that's in my favour on this debate' - because it's a fallacious argument. The same manager will disagree with me on other footballing matters. I only did it above (with Kovac) to show you how pointless it is. So your last paragraph makes no sense.

 

It's actually quite alarming that so many adults seem unaware of the appeal to authority fallacy. I've faced it in literally every disagreement I have ever had online. It's unforgivable, really.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[MikeO]

Not getting involved but I have to just point out that anyone who uses "hence why" needs to be castrated by the grammar police....it's tautology and one of the (many) manglings of English that wind me up on a daily basis, but it's near the top of the list. Sorry Nikica, I'm out of here now.

[Guest Nikica]

Not getting involved but I have to just point out that anyone who uses "hence why" needs to be castrated by the grammar police....it's tautology and one of the (many) manglings of English that wind me up on a daily basis, but it's near the top of the list. Sorry Nikica, I'm out of here now.

Fair point. If I did it it's because I had bigger things on my mind.

However, you should probably learn how to use an ellipsis properly before climbing that horse.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[MikeO]

Fair point. If I did it it's because I had bigger things on my mind.

However, you should probably learn how to use an ellipsis properly before climbing that horse.

Touché (with an accent on the e). I shall use a semi colon next time.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Matt

[Guest Nikica]

Touche (with an accent on the e). I shall use a semi colon next time.

 

It's all very petty either way.

[Guest Nikica]

Anyway, back on topic - I can't wait for Welbeck's career to fall apart (if it hasn't already). By all accounts he's a prick so he has it coming to him.

 

Ten years from now some of you will cringe at this discussion.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Nikica

[BlueBlood81]

This thread....fucking hell

[Matt]

Touché (with an accent on the e). I shall use a semi colon next time.

there are perks to a French keyboard

[Shukes]

 

I don't need to man up. I'm simply pointing out the folly of judging a poster based on what they think of one player. It's even more pathetic in this case as the general consensus seems to be that Welbeck was rubbish the other night, which would indicate you're the one who's clueless and arrogant (although this is an appeal to popularity, which is flawed). Having watched Welbeck myself I definitely trust my own eyes over your analysis. You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him. Thinking Welbeck is an average player or had a bad game is hardly controversial is it?

 

Perhaps you could let me know some of your opinions on football? So that I can pick out the odd one or two I disagree with and call you clueless as a result.

 

Welbeck of all people Clearly you don't follow foreign football much if you are impressed by a guy like Welbeck (two can play the condescending game).

You really think about of yourself don't you haha.

 

Make out what you want about my comments friend, if you take them personally then so be it. I'm here to debate not argue. You have turned my comments into something entirely different and that's your choice.

 

My comments stand and I hope that all other posters take them for what they are and what you are trying to turn them into.

 

Now if you want to continue this conversation I would be happy to have it in private. If you want to continue debating Welbeck then I'm happy to do it on the forums.

 

Simple fact is that I am right about Welbeck and ypu don't like it, hey I get that! I hate losing too.

 

But seriously you can't use the me against others debate as a reason why each others opinion is correct. I am just a retired semi pro footballer who is now a personell manager. The managers and coaches who make the choices are far better qualifies than me and you.

 

I stand by my comment was tongue in cheek and meant to get a reaction but all I'm the name of forum fun! I never meant you to take it so seriously. We're debating a footballer that's all.

[Shukes]

I have just read a lot more dribble from you pal and I have to admit..... I take back my last post. If you took it personally I am now so happy.

 

You seem to think you are a very educated person and that your intelligence is of a superior level than most here... The fact you seem to have a reason why everyone's opinion is flawed and have also on several occasions corrected many people... Well get you!

 

Simple fact for me is that of all the people you have questioned.... Other than me, I admit I am of low intelligence and knowledge, but I value their opinions more as they are more in tune with football than most people I know

 

You admit you are a deep thinker, could I suggest over thinker? And I mean that as no insult. Just something to think about... But not too much ;-)

[Shukes]

Anyway, none of this would have happened if not for that moron Shukes deliberately trying to wind people up. Prick.

There goes the intelligence debate! Game set and match I think.

Like I said man up son!

Or get frustrated because your notvgetting your way... Cry in a corner and think of a happy place.

 

Damn I have just opened myself up for another insult from the highly intelligent and ruthless Nic.. Whatever his name was.

[Shukes]

So any one think we should sign Welbeck then?

Hope he plays tonight as I would like to look closer at him.

Would be nice to see him play centrally so we can see and judge him in a position that he may be deployed in if we brought him.

[Bailey]

Would it not just be a better idea to stop with the petty nonsense and get back to actually have a decent debate about the skills (or lack of) Welbeck.

 

I have looked back at some Youtube videos because they generally show every player in a good light but with Welbeck they are almost exclusively 40 yards out because the truth is that is where his best works comes. I dont think I have yet seen an occasion where he has tried to play someone else in on goal and that backs up exactly what I have seen of him in other games. His link up play is ok, nothing more, he close control on reflection is probably marginally better than Lukaku in that he has 'quicker' feet and maybe in that respect his dribbling too but its not by much. Its also worth considering that Welbeck has mostly plied his trade against smaller FB's in more space as opposed to Lukaku who has been working against CB's with little space. Welbeck should purely by chance have more time to control the ball, less pressure to control the ball and therefore more space to run into and more space to look up and play a pass. Dont forget, the one game Lukaku did play wide, he dominated from start to finish and made the most of the space I alluded too, albeit in just one game. In that respect I would like to see how Welbeck does with his back to goal against a compact back 4 and midfield 4, mainly because there arent a lot of examples of it and because given what I have seen, he would probably just as bad an option as Lukaku in those senarios. Yes he would be better in a defensive unit because he is more disciplined and works harder but if that is your biggest asset for a striker then it says all you really need to know.

 

In terms of the build up play/passing that has been mentioned, I know stats arent the be all and end all but they do give you a little snapshot of a player and I think in this instance they show the key difference between the two players. I would say Welbeck is the better player from 50-30 yards out, he works harder, he has better acceleration to react to loose balls and this is where he seems happiest in terms of laying the ball off to someone else before making his way further up the pitch. When he gets into the goal scoring areas that is where his limitations show. I have seen a few good little dribbles he has made or where he has used his quick feet to create space but they take him wide or backwards most of the time. If he makes a run, he goes into a blind alley, he doesnt look up for options and it results in the ball turning over because he gets crowded out by the other teams defenders. Lukaku is more incisive. He isnt the best passer of the ball or the best decision maker but you can tell from what he does that he sees the pass and he knows how to bring others into the game to create a goal scoring opportunity and more often than not he takes that opportunity. You pay £20mil for Lukaku because he is a threat whereas Welbecks threat is limited. I have even watched back his goals this season and I would estimate over 75% of them were 1 vs 1's either from errors, poor defending/keeping or luck. I know every striker gets that element to their goals but it was more than I was expecting in truth. He scores a couple of nice ones though including the chipped goal against Swansea.

 

Like Lukaku, he would be a decent enough signing at the right price but I would have Lukaku every day of the week ahead of Welbeck if I had a choice.

 

Another thing to consider with Welbeck, is that he wont come cheap either. He would be one of our highest earners and IMO he hasnt done anywhere near enough to warrant that.

[MC11]

Not as good as Sturridge hasn't showed any signs he will be. Sturridge wasn't played enough at other clubs but when he went to Bolton he scored for fun same at Liverpool.

 

I don't rate Welbeck tbh

Edited June 4, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Shukes]

Bailey I can't argue with any of that.

Damn you!

 

Interesting point about his best area of play too. If I get chance I will take another look at the videos and look at where his best play is.

 

Do you think he would be good value at 10m? For me it's not much of a risk and I don't see what else we could get for that.

[Steve_E]

Would it not just be a better idea to stop with the petty nonsense and get back to actually have a decent debate about the skills (or lack of) Welbeck.

 

I have looked back at some Youtube videos because they generally show every player in a good light but with Welbeck they are almost exclusively 40 yards out because the truth is that is where his best works comes. I dont think I have yet seen an occasion where he has tried to play someone else in on goal and that backs up exactly what I have seen of him in other games. His link up play is ok, nothing more, he close control on reflection is probably marginally better than Lukaku in that he has 'quicker' feet and maybe in that respect his dribbling too but its not by much. Its also worth considering that Welbeck has mostly plied his trade against smaller FB's in more space as opposed to Lukaku who has been working against CB's with little space. Welbeck should purely by chance have more time to control the ball, less pressure to control the ball and therefore more space to run into and more space to look up and play a pass. Dont forget, the one game Lukaku did play wide, he dominated from start to finish and made the most of the space I alluded too, albeit in just one game. In that respect I would like to see how Welbeck does with his back to goal against a compact back 4 and midfield 4, mainly because there arent a lot of examples of it and because given what I have seen, he would probably just as bad an option as Lukaku in those senarios. Yes he would be better in a defensive unit because he is more disciplined and works harder but if that is your biggest asset for a striker then it says all you really need to know.

 

In terms of the build up play/passing that has been mentioned, I know stats arent the be all and end all but they do give you a little snapshot of a player and I think in this instance they show the key difference between the two players. I would say Welbeck is the better player from 50-30 yards out, he works harder, he has better acceleration to react to loose balls and this is where he seems happiest in terms of laying the ball off to someone else before making his way further up the pitch. When he gets into the goal scoring areas that is where his limitations show. I have seen a few good little dribbles he has made or where he has used his quick feet to create space but they take him wide or backwards most of the time. If he makes a run, he goes into a blind alley, he doesnt look up for options and it results in the ball turning over because he gets crowded out by the other teams defenders. Lukaku is more incisive. He isnt the best passer of the ball or the best decision maker but you can tell from what he does that he sees the pass and he knows how to bring others into the game to create a goal scoring opportunity and more often than not he takes that opportunity. You pay £20mil for Lukaku because he is a threat whereas Welbecks threat is limited. I have even watched back his goals this season and I would estimate over 75% of them were 1 vs 1's either from errors, poor defending/keeping or luck. I know every striker gets that element to their goals but it was more than I was expecting in truth. He scores a couple of nice ones though including the chipped goal against Swansea.

 

Like Lukaku, he would be a decent enough signing at the right price but I would have Lukaku every day of the week ahead of Welbeck if I had a choice.

 

Another thing to consider with Welbeck, is that he wont come cheap either. He would be one of our highest earners and IMO he hasnt done anywhere near enough to warrant that.

 

I think the biggest concern people seem to be having with Welbeck is that he doesn't score goals, either because he's a shit finisher or because he isn't a threat in the box. But this Youtube clip showing his goals from this season seems to suggest that if he is played up front rather than out wide, that he is going to get in goalscoring positions in that central area in the box right in front of goal. Those are the goals you can repeat year in and year out. I don't see much luck involved either. There's some luck in how he gets into the position to score against Norwich, but he shows fine composure for someone who's supposedly the worst finisher in Premier League history. The goal at 00:47 might result from bad defending, a player that isn't as fast and doesn't have that first touch down still wouldn't score.

 

Look at the linkup play at 1:52, at 2:08. Or at 0:39 or 0:42 in this clip. At 2:10 you can see an instance of his touch on a difficult pass coming at him through the air with a defender all over his back btw. You should look at the entire second clip btw to see his skill on the ball and on several occasions really good decision making.

 

Also, you can't compare Lukaku playing on the wing against Arsenal to how Welbeck plays on the wing for Man U. Our entire set up that game was meant to create even more space for Lukaku than he'd normally have. With Cazorla not tracking back and Sagna thus having to step out at Baines, Mirallas hugging the touchline drawing one centre back over and Naismith making runs in the channel on that side of the pitch as well thus occupying the other centre back. That way Lukaku was isolated against Monreal and he had 50% of the width entire pitch to take him out.

[Cake]

there are perks to a French keyboard

 

and the downside is it reeks of garlic?

[Newty82]

Bloomin heck! Some deep stuff being written on here! And it's only a rumour thread...god help our sanity if we actually sign him!!!

 

He'd be a good addition to the squad. Simples.