Longest Thread For Drivel (or the Romelu Lukaku thread)

[Hafnia]

Only 9 Strikers got 15+ goals in the league this season with only 2 20+ so I'd say 15 goals for a striker is somewhat of an achievement and something that is pretty difficult to find.

 

As a lone striker you expect more goals for a team that finishes in the top 6 IMO, last season Berbatov, Lambert, Michu, Benteke scored 15+ playing as lone striker.

 

Fellaini scored 11 goals from attacking mid last year. All I am saying is that 15 goals isn't a massive landmark for a striker especially when the team scored their highest premier league points total.

 

He did well - don't think i'm slating him but he is being vastly over rated and people are using age and 15 goals as some sort of justification. We are talking about Everton spending £20m on a player who has a fair few flaws here.

[Steve_E]

 

As a lone striker you expect more goals for a team that finishes in the top 6 IMO, last season Berbatov, Lambert, Michu, Benteke scored 15+ playing as lone striker.

 

Fellaini scored 11 goals from attacking mid last year. All I am saying is that 15 goals isn't a massive landmark for a striker especially when the team scored their highest premier league points total.

 

He did well - don't think i'm slating him but he is being vastly over rated and people are using age and 15 goals as some sort of justification. We are talking about Everton spending £20m on a player who has a fair few flaws here.

 

Why do you expect strikers that play up top by themselves to score more than strikers that play in a two up top system?

[Hafnia]

 

Why do you expect strikers that play up top by themselves to score more than strikers that play in a two up top system?

 

Because they are the single focal point. Strikers are a different breed, they don't like passing when they can shoot and end up sharing the spoils - if there is only one then it takes away that issue.

 

This season I seen Suarez and Sturridge score very well but in all honesty it wasnt without its problems, the madness is they could have scored more.

 

Biggest example is Rooney, as the single point of focus striker he scored more goals than any other season. Even with Berbatov, Berbatov dropped into a number 10 role.

[NyarkosLeftToe]

 

As a lone striker you expect more goals for a team that finishes in the top 6 IMO, last season Berbatov, Lambert, Michu, Benteke scored 15+ playing as lone striker.

 

Fellaini scored 11 goals from attacking mid last year. All I am saying is that 15 goals isn't a massive landmark for a striker especially when the team scored their highest premier league points total.

 

He did well - don't think i'm slating him but he is being vastly over rated and people are using age and 15 goals as some sort of justification. We are talking about Everton spending £20m on a player who has a fair few flaws here.

 

 

Do you not think a reason why we finished on our highest points total was due to us having a 15 goal striker though?

 

Age is a massive factor in the price of him, the fact he is young and can get you them goals is why he is rated as £20 million.

[Steve_E]

Because they are the single focal point. Strikers are a different breed, they don't like passing when they can shoot and end up sharing the spoils - if there is only one then it takes away that issue.

 

This season I seen Suarez and Sturridge score very well but in all honesty it wasnt without its problems, the madness is they could have scored more.

 

Biggest example is Rooney, as the single point of focus striker he scored more goals than any other season. Even with Berbatov, Berbatov dropped into a number 10 role.

 

They aren't the single focal point though, are they?

 

Manchester United under Ferguson always tried to attack through their wingers and their ability to get the ball in the box. A side relying on crossing needs people in the box, hence formations with two strikers. Rooney's best goalscoring seasons were when he played with Berbatov or Owen for the majority of the 09/10 season and when he always played with Welbeck or Chicharito in 11/12. Fellaini last year played up top when we had possession as well.

 

If you don't want to rely on crossing as much (for example because it isn't a very efficient way of creating a goal and it gives the opposition the opportunity to counter attack), coaches don't need that second man waiting in the box and take him out for an extra midfielder that can help the build up play, but also make penetrating runs. They simply get the goalscoring responsibility the player they replaced had, in addition to the wingers who are now probably inverted wingers rather than your get-chalk-on-the-boots-and-cross-type players. You don't just suddenly expect your lone striker to score twice the amount of goals.

[Matt]

I would have loved to have seen the 2009-2011 Louis Saha play in this Martinez set up. If we did it would put Lukaku into a real perspective.

 

I would have backed that version of Louis Saha to net 20 goals+ and get a fair few assists... if we had seen that, then some fans would be far less desperate to get Lukaku.

 

That's the problem, Everton fans have become brain washed into thinking 15 goals is a miracle for a striker to score. Jay Rodriguez scored that for Southampton this season.

Would never have happened as he would've be constantly injured (I really liked Saha, but thats just the truth). Lukaku could've got another five if he hadnt been injured for those 7-8 games, and still provided assists.

 

Coming back to this "peaking" early nonsense. If thats the case, and hes peaking now, surely we get him on a 5 year deal and sell him on when hes "in decline"?

 

Why do I keep letting myself get dragged into this insane argument!

 

If anyone could be bothered looking it up, I'd be interested to see if Roms goals and assists were "non critical", like Nikicas analysis of Ronaldo.

[Hafnia]

I'm simply going to draw a line under this one as being - for what he is going to cost he isn't going to offer us what we need.

 

Yes goals he will score, and some will be happy with 15 goals a season, for me that simply isn't enough - cast your minds back to the games where he wasn't scoring - he offers very little else IMO and some comments regarding him justify this. A poor touch and poor ability to find a team mate.

 

If we had the luxury of money then I would get him as a player for the last 20 minutes - where his energy can be concentrated and his size can unsettle defenders.

[MC11]

Saha 20+ goals 09-11 if under Martinez....

 

That guy was amazing on his day but one real bad egg the rest of the time.

 

I'd say Lukaku even has a better good game ratio than Saha

[Matt]

I'm simply going to draw a line under this one as being - for what he is going to cost he isn't going to offer us what we need.

 

Yes goals he will score, and some will be happy with 15 goals a season, for me that simply isn't enough - cast your minds back to the games where he wasn't scoring - he offers very little else IMO and some comments regarding him justify this. A poor touch and poor ability to find a team mate.

 

If we had the luxury of money then I would get him as a player for the last 20 minutes - where his energy can be concentrated and his size can unsettle defenders.

and who's to say he wouldnt score more in a full season? How many games did he miss? Im going to guess 8. Going on his record, he wouldve been getting closer to 20 goals.

 

His touch is sometimes poor, its sometimes great. His ability to find a teammate is sometimes poor, its sometimes great. He's not perfect, but then again he's a kid. He is a goalscorer (a lot of 1 touch finishes, despite his first touch being poor), he's consistent over a season, he has potential to fulfill, he has sell on value. Want perfect at this, or any other age with the same attributes? Write a check fro 30-40m+

 

Or spend the same money on someone with a similar record, only 5 years older, proven in the EPL for 1 season, who will have little resale value and will disappear for 2 months a season for ACON....

 

No brainer for me...

[Hafnia]

and who's to say he wouldnt score more in a full season? How many games did he miss? Im going to guess 8. Going on his record, he wouldve been getting closer to 20 goals.

 

His touch is sometimes poor, its sometimes great. His ability to find a teammate is sometimes poor, its sometimes great. He's not perfect, but then again he's a kid. He is a goalscorer (a lot of 1 touch finishes, despite his first touch being poor), he's consistent over a season, he has potential to fulfill, he has sell on value. Want perfect at this, or any other age with the same attributes? Write a check fro 30-40m+

 

Or spend the same money on someone with a similar record, only 5 years older, proven in the EPL for 1 season, who will have little resale value and will disappear for 2 months a season for ACON....

 

No brainer for me...

 

I just reviewed the match comments for Palace and Southampton - 2 key games. The comments regarding Lukaku were pretty much summarising that he hadn't controlled a single pass, that he was a waste of space etc etc.

 

I don't fall for this goals per games ratio nonsense - its what you do in the games and the ones where you don't score. Its all very well doing it in fits and starts and getting 2 goals here and there - what do they do when the team really is needing them and we need the ball to stick up front.

 

I observed him closely in a good few games last year and basically whilst he can impress with his dynamic nature "running on the ball" and getting the odd goal, he just really is lacking in areas which forum comments picked up in the above mentioned games.

[Steve_E]

 

I just reviewed the match comments for Palace and Southampton - 2 key games. The comments regarding Lukaku were pretty much summarising that he hadn't controlled a single pass, that he was a waste of space etc etc.

 

I don't fall for this goals per games ratio nonsense - its what you do in the games and the ones where you don't score. Its all very well doing it in fits and starts and getting 2 goals here and there - what do they do when the team really is needing them and we need the ball to stick up front.

 

I observed him closely in a good few games last year and basically whilst he can impress with his dynamic nature "running on the ball" and getting the odd goal, he just really is lacking in areas which forum comments picked up in the above mentioned games.

 

A lot of those are bullshit though.

[Hafnia]

 

A lot of those are bullshit though.

 

I think they are an effective barometer to be honest - like a diary... seriously go in and have a look. I was going to copy and paste comments in but not getting petty, they do indicate big concerns regarding a players ability to control and pass a ball. Who goes missing and appears lazy when things aren't going his way.

 

Listen, if we sign him he gets 100% support and I trust Martinez to make the best use of his budget.

[BlueBlood81]

I love Rom & would love him here but my concern is his inability to last 90 mins. I know he's a big unit but he's 20 years old ffs & has been playing first team football since he was 16! West Brom mainly used him from the bench & although he started for us he clearly couldn't put in a proper 90 min shift. What's that all about?

[Mirallas]

What a team though, jeez...

 

• 13 Bossut
• 02 Alderweireld (Vanden Borre - 45' )
• 05 Vertonghen (Lombaerts - 77' )
• 08 Fellaini
• 04 Kompany (van Buyten - 45' )
• 03 Vermaelen
• 11 Mirallas (Januzaj - 45' )
• 06 Witsel (Defour - 45' )
• 09 Lukaku (Origi - 61' )
• 07 De Bruyne
• 10 Hazard (Chadli - 45' )

Gotta be worth a cheeky punt at the World Cup!

 

Goalkeeper Mignolet was injured and Thibaut Courtois, goalkeeper of the year in Spain was still on a break after the champions league final. Dries Mertens (Napoli) and Moussa Dembele (Spurs) also didn't play. Radja Nainggolan, AS Roma's usual choice for defensive midfield, wasn't even selected (sadly enough).

 

Quite frankly, Belgium's squad is a collection of captains, star players and top club squad fillers who know each very well, they've been playing together since youth categories. They will go through fire for their coach Marc Wilmots. Their weaknesses are the lack of experience with big tournaments and the high expectations from fans.

 

I think, if they put their mind to it they can give any team a contest, even Spain. But they won't win the World Cup though, I don't think they would be able to handle the pressure of being in the final four for instance. You always need maturity to win a large tournament.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Mirallas

[Guest Nikica]

Yes, I really can see both sides of the argument here. I agree with Matt that he does have some technical ability, he's just inconsistent and erratic. I've said that before. I've also said that I believe technique can be improved upon. However, hafnia's concerns are valid as Everton can't really afford to have a guy learning on the job both technically and mentally. The competition will probably be more fierce next season and you'll need more consistent performances up front. OTOH, Lukaku has delivered end product and that's a good thing. It might be worth looking into his 'crucial goals' as Matt suggested; like haf I believe gpg ratios are pretty misleading as they offer no context. However, defining and stating crucial goals is more telling.

 

It all goes back to the argument I tend to ponder over players: is end product the most important thing, as that means that someone is turning plays into tangible metrics such as goals, assists etc? Or is it a case that these goals could be covered by a better player, and said player would also make the team even better by offering better all-round play and creating more opportunities? It comes down to whether you prefer to think about football as cast-iron, tangible facts or in a more hypothetical manner and considering how the complexion of games and seasons changes.

 

In response to the Belgium argument, I'm still not convinced about them. I do believe they are a dark horse, and I rate many of their players. But I'm still not convinced by Kompany and Vermaelen at world level, and Vertonghen is better at CB than LB imo. They do have real quality in the likes of Dembele, Witsel, Hazard, Courtois, Mirallas, Mertens etc and I guess (pertaining to this thread) some of us would say Lukaku too. However, they're a very young team and they're all playing their first tournament - which also happens to be in another continent under a relatively young manager who is a legend of Belgian football. I've said for a while that I feel we will see the best of them in France and Russia, and that I believe this tournament comes too early for them. Right now I'm thinking they will lose a very tight last sixteen game to Portugal. Overall they have better players than Portugal, but the Portuguese are a better defensive unit and have lots of tournament experience, both factors which count for a lot in major tournaments. Not hating on Belgium - I expect big things from the three tournaments following the WC (all to be held in Europe). However, I don't feel they represent value as they're the most fancied team outside of the so-called 'big four' (Spain, Brazil, Germany, Argentina). I simply don't feel Belgium are one of the top five teams in the tournament.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Nikica

[EFC-Paul]

Not really going to debate on if he's good enough to justify the reported £20m to buy him as it's pointless as I'm pretty certain he will not sign here

 

It's all well and good arguing a fee and if we have it when the player probably won't want to come here anyway he's never given me any hope or indication he actually wanted to stay on, we've been a stepping stone nothing more and the only chance of him being here again is for another loan spell in my eyes.....

[Toffee_in_LA]

Not really going to debate on if he's good enough to justify the reported £20m to buy him as it's pointless as I'm pretty certain he will not sign here

 

It's all well and good arguing a fee and if we have it when the player probably won't want to come here anyway he's never given me any hope or indication he actually wanted to stay on, we've been a stepping stone nothing more and the only chance of him being here again is for another loan spell in my eyes.....

I wouldn't go that far, that celebration with RM after his goal against Arsenal showed a huge passion towards our club (or maybe it was just a top 4 spot?). He could have celebrated with anyone of his teammates but instead ran to RM, that told me a lot.

 

As for whether he is worth it or not at 20M, the answer for me is yes. Keep in mind he never properly trained with the club during preseason and his play, especially in the first 3 games where we drew could've made a tremendous difference. Were there games where his touch absolutely frustrated me, absolutely. Can he bang in goals and play amazingly as well, no doubt. Sadly as I've said before, I don't think he's going to be sold for 20M, especially after the World Cup.

[EFC-Paul]

I wouldn't go that far, that celebration with RM after his goal against Arsenal showed a huge passion towards our club (or maybe it was just a top 4 spot?). He could have celebrated with anyone of his teammates but instead ran to RM, that told me a lot.

That shows absolutely nothing more then a moment of jubilation between a player and his manager or in Martinez's case a friend

 

If that's how you see it fair enough but to me that means diddley squat and to think it could indicate a player wanting to sign on a permanent basis is nothing more then ludicrous tbh....

Edited May 28, 2014 by EFC-Paul

[Toffee_in_LA]

That shows absolutely nothing more then a moment of jubilation between a player and his manager or in Martinez's case a friend

 

If that's how you see it fair enough but to me that means diddley squat and to think it could indicate a player wanting to sign on a permanent basis is nothing more then ludicrous tbh....

Fair enough, like I alluded to, he was holding up the number 4 indicating us being top 4 at that point. I bring this up because the exact contrast to this is very telling as well. Take Chicharito for example who after breaking his duck he was on (can't remember against who), just stood there, looking at the fans. He was/is definitely not happy at United. Lukaku just seemed to be genuinely happy he was making an big impact with that goal and has had nothing but positive things to say about the club. I'm not sure you'd see the same thing if he was at Chelsea and involved in that carousel of strikers they have atm.

[Guest blueboy122]

That shows absolutely nothing more then a moment of jubilation between a player and his manager or in Martinez's case a friend

If that's how you see it fair enough but to me that means diddley squat and to think it could indicate a player wanting to sign on a permanent basis is nothing more then ludicrous tbh....

Agreed

 

The celebration meant nothing. I hug all sorts of people if we score and I don't even no them!

[EFC-Paul]

I fully understood where you where coming from though LA and hopefully that didn't come across arsey mate I'm just weighing up what we've seen and heard from him and I genuinely don't think he'd want to sign here regardless so the whole debate as healthy as it is is redundant to me

 

I'd love it to happen but sadly think on his part and the fee it's a pipe dream

Edited May 29, 2014 by EFC-Paul

[Toffee_in_LA]

I fully understood where you where coming from though LA and hopefully that didn't come across arsey mate I'm just weighing up what we've seen and heard from him and I genuinely don't think he'd want to sign here regardless so the whole debate as healthy as it is is redundant to me

 

I'd love it to happen but sadly think on his part and the fee it's a pipe dream

Not at all Paul, I didn't think your response was rude or anything at all. I agree with you for the most part, although I don't think he'd have any problems or be disappointed if we did indeed signed him. I do think we won't be able to afford him and build the squad as well as we are aiming for next year, especially if he has a great world cup.

[Hafnia]

From the perspective of "reading Lukaku" my opinion is that he is kid in a mans body. He has a lot to learn but values himself as champions league player as stated in previous interviews. His support of Anelka was stupid - if Ross Barkley had come out with that statement then the english press would have ripped him apart - being foreign I believe Lukaku escaped that one lightly.

 

In short, hugging the manager etc etc means nothing - he will go to the club that is best for his ambitions and pocket.

[Matt]

been offered to Roma as a money + player exchange Benatia

[Hafnia]

been offered to Roma as a money + player exchange Benatia

 

Be interesting to see if Roma accept this, they value Benetia at £38m and Chelsea have offered £18m+Lukaku therefore making Lukaku £20m.

 

Or are Chelsea trying to get the money in for Lukaku by doing this... generate a bidding war....

[Kant]

been offered to Roma as a money + player exchange Benatia

 

Italian football would be the worst fit for Lukaku, I wouldn't accept that if I were him.

[Matt]

 

Italian football would be the worst fit for Lukaku, I wouldn't accept that if I were him.

That was my impression too, he's too physical for the Serie A

[MC11]

Yeh, don't think Roma would be a good move.

 

The more I think about a deal for Lukaku the more I realise I'm not too bothered.

 

If the club has £20m to spend on a striker, then hell the balls well and truly in our caught. If we haven't got that type of money then Lukaku is only a pipe dream anyway.

 

One thing I do not want to happen is a strike force of Lacina Traore and Arouna Kone come the start of the season. We need to spend big in that area. I'm sure Roberto is on it.

Edited May 30, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Hafnia]

Yeh, don't think Roma would be a good move.

 

The more I think about a deal for Lukaku the more I realise I'm not too bothered.

 

If the club has £20m to spend on a striker, then hell the balls well and truly in our caught. If we haven't got that type of money then Lukaku is only a pipe dream anyway.

 

One thing I do not want to happen is a strike force of Lacina Traore and Arouna Kone come the start of the season. We need to spend big in that area. I'm sure Roberto is on it.

 

The reason i'm not keen on him is that we play a possession based game, with full back who bomb on. We need a centre forward who looks after the ball - he just doesn't do this well enough.

[Mirallas]

 

Italian football would be the worst fit for Lukaku, I wouldn't accept that if I were him.

 

Italian football is slow paced and characterized by man-to-man duels. In that perspective it's probably a good league for him. But on the other hand teams will usually play in a defensive style against roma, so he wouldn't get much space from the opposing defense to controll a ball. Plus if him and Gervinho would be Roma's attack then they'll have a lot of issues with keeping posession up front.