marcopaulo Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) They don't count then. The clubs who have been bought who are worth more than Everton aren't comparable either then. So what sort of club has to be bought before us despite Kenwright looking 24/7 for a buyer before he takes some flak? Are you waiting for some goldilocks situation where a club is a carbon copy of Everton? Because if that's the case Kenwright will get no criticism til he pops his clogs. Excuses are always found for why we haven't been bought. Excuses that wouldn't be made if Kenwright wasn't a blue. not at all but he made that a year ago...since then no massive clubs have been taken over apart from liverpool and that is because they are more marketable than us..i have criticised him but not in the sale of the club cos i don't want him to sell to just anyone..if he did then we could end up doin a blackburn..get rid of moyes and get some dick that knows fuck all about football to be manager and get rid of the best players and take us down.. that's all i'm gonna say anyways..cos i feel like i'm on a merry-go-round on this situation..everyone knows my point of view about it.. Edited July 1, 2012 by marcopaulo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't trust Kenwright to decide who the right person is. He thought a fella living in a bedsit was the right person for Everton remember? Why do only massive clubs count? We're not a massive club. We're a mid-table club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 how many mid-table clubs have been bought in the past year though? as i said it's a stupid statement from kenwright and he should have thought about it cos it's bound to be taken literally by the people who hate him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 This may add some fuel. Bill Kenwright famously claimed last year that noone is buying football clubs. As of today, the sales of Nottingham Forrest, Port Vale and Watfords will be going through...Reading were taken over at the end of May. Only 4 examples... Im with Marco on this one It is easy to see why somebody would be interested in any of these clubs because they all have the potential to turn them into Premiership clubs with a modest investment thereby gaining the new owners a healthy profit Everton is an enritely different prospect. Realisticly the only way any potential new owner would get a return on his investment with Everton would be by turning us into regular Chapions League participants and quiet clearly the amount of money that would take is significantly higher than the amount required to be deemed a success at any of the clubs mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) Im with Marco on this one It is easy to see why somebody would be interested in any of these clubs because they all have the potential to turn them into Premiership clubs with a modest investment thereby gaining the new owners a healthy profit Everton is an enritely different prospect. Realisticly the only way any potential new owner would get a return on his investment with Everton would be by turning us into regular Chapions League participants and quiet clearly the amount of money that would take is significantly higher than the amount required to be deemed a success at any of the clubs mentioned I have to agree. Everton is on the brink of Europe, and I believe we can do it without significant investment. Champions League seems miles away... It would be hard to think a new owner could come in and make us immediate CL contenders...unless it's the same type of investment Citeh received. The statement itself makes me think 2 things. no1. Are we actually for sale in the first place? no2. Are the conditions/asking price of the sale unrealistic and therefore scaring off potential buyers? I think it's a combination of the two: He'd be willing to see if the money offered was at a high enough price. Edited July 1, 2012 by TonkaRoost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 how many mid-table clubs have been bought in the past year though? as i said it's a stupid statement from kenwright and he should have thought about it cos it's bound to be taken literally by the people who hate him I don't care how many mid-table clubs have been bought, I said before it's not about the size of the clubs that have been bought (not in those exact words but that was my point). Kenwright regularly makes stupid statements, he really should learn. One mistake, maybe two, is understandable, but when you do it over and over you have to wonder what goes through his head. If he's going to be the one in the spotlight then he's got to get his words right. If he can't even get simple things like this right then how can any one expect him to sell the club to a potential buyer for the club? I don't, not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't care how many mid-table clubs have been bought, I said before it's not about the size of the clubs that have been bought (not in those exact words but that was my point). Kenwright regularly makes stupid statements, he really should learn. One mistake, maybe two, is understandable, but when you do it over and over you have to wonder what goes through his head. If he's going to be the one in the spotlight then he's got to get his words right. If he can't even get simple things like this right then how can any one expect him to sell the club to a potential buyer for the club? I don't, not at all. i don't think he's the best man to sell the club either...that's not what i was saying at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 i don't think he's the best man to sell the club either...that's not what i was saying at all Oh I know you didn't mate, that was just a side issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Oh I know you didn't mate, that was just a side issue. I think the biggest turn off is the asking price. 150 million Pounds is a ridiculous asking price for a club thats 50m in debt, is losing 10m pounds a year and needs a new stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I think the biggest turn off is the asking price. 150 million Pounds is a ridiculous asking price for a club thats 50m in debt, is losing 10m pounds a year and needs a new stadium. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/34/soccer-values-09_Everton_340028.html £144 mil 3 years ago, so add the new tv deal on top of that. Or just off player value the team is worth £115 mil estimated by http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/premier-league/startseite/wettbewerb_GB1.html The asking price is not public, but your figure is lower than are actual value, yet still moan it's too much. The players on the pitch plus Goodison plus Everton as a brand is very reasonable. However football doesn't stick to the standard financial rules. With clubs bankrolled and player power dictating the market. Back to the same old house analogy. If a house (players) cost £115 to build an enterprise doesn't sell at cost, it has value added. Add to that the price may be higher because of the location (brand worth). Now imagine your house (Everton) cost half the market value for all the materials used to build it and I came along and offered to buy the house at cost, and all the neighbours (fans) wanted you (Kenwright) to sell, you would rightly tell me to fuck off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 everton aren't much of a brand until that shit kitbag deal is out the window..really limits anyone's potential to make money off everton as a business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 the immediate future doesn't look too promising. Stable soccer under Moyes, even if there is no end product, but the need for investment is crucial if we really need to move on or try to get back to something like we once were, I don't see this occuring any time soon, we may not be the most attractive mannequin in the shop window as of now, so until we can dress ourselves properly, times will continue to struggle for a while longer. Keeping heads above water and an occasional swim to shore seems the present situation until we can go a bit further and reach those paradise Islands or white waters. One can only be optimistic, and hope we find ourselves in better shape not too far in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I feel like we need to somehow find a way to break even per year or at least have much lower losses per year. We'd probably need to raise more revenue and cut costs quite a bit... We need to increase attendance (Hopefully playing better football will do part of that), get on TV more, make more money of shirts (get out of this KitBag deal when possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 We used to feature quite a bit 20/30 years ago on terrestrial Television I remember, but when Sky took over, and it went to Pay Per View games we seemed to decline a lot and weren't featured so prominently, even today, we get shown very infrequently as Sky TV is so far up it's own ass over heavyweights such as Chelsea and Manchester United for example, we hardly get a look in, so don't expect that to change anytime soon. And a large percentage of replica sales for respective teams goes today to kids, where their parents go out to buy one, point is, Kids on the street today, aren't going to be interested in Everton (outside of the Merseyside/North West vicinity) for the most part, they'll favor whoever is big and successful of the time, if I went out and about now, I'd see kids out in Arsenal or Liverpool replicas, but no Manchester City oddly enough, bottom line being, they make for a large bracket of shirt sales and maybe Everton won't get much of a look in now, kids and parents won't buy them and they represent a large corner of the market. The only way to increase attendance is to move to a new arena, we have tried that before and it was doomed to failure, we simply are unable to do that right now, unless we ground share with the Shite and I really want none of that. Goodison holds 40,000 and we have seen some healthy attendances the last few years, certainly an improvement on past years, but of course, better soccer and results will put asses on seats, but we're too inconsistent to manage that I'm afraid. Paying our players decreased salaries would be beneficial too. £15,000, £20,000, £30,000 per week etc is simply too much for any individual, it's fucking crazy sometimes, some of these clubs and what they do, all I'm saying, is players really don't need such absurd and belligerent salaries when only a percentage for any one player would seem enough. Don't want to get started on that, so once again, the Investment issue is crucial, clubs need to move with the times, we can't be being with left behind, but when this savior or whoever arrives, I really don't know. Taking each week at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I feel like we need to somehow find a way to break even per year or at least have much lower losses per year. We'd probably need to raise more revenue and cut costs quite a bit... We need to increase attendance (Hopefully playing better football will do part of that), get on TV more, make more money of shirts (get out of this KitBag deal when possible). THIS, i think we should be look at every single legal loophole in the land to get out of the Kitbag deal, it's killing us in so many ways whatever the cost(i know its not going to be cheap) we need to get as far away from them as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 everton aren't much of a brand until that shit kitbag deal is out the window..really limits anyone's potential to make money off everton as a business I was being lazy with brand, on top of the fanbase/merchandise there's the clubs premierleague status and the revenue that brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) i must say this, and i cant stress it enough. the market value of the players is not a direct reflective of the value of the club, as the players contracts get closer to thre expiry date they become a lower value. there is not a set formula for working out the value/cost of a club, it all comes down to opinions. BKs opinion might be to sell their shares for £1500 per share, Earl might want £3000. Just a point i had to make, carry on. EDIT. Incase its not clear. if Everton was valued at £100m, and we sell Baines for £20m, that does not then make Everton worth £80m. Edited July 1, 2012 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 i must say this, and i cant stress it enough. the market value of the players is not a direct reflective of the value of the club, as the players contracts get closer to thre expiry date they become a lower value. there is not a set formula for working out the value/cost of a club, it all comes down to opinions. BKs opinion might be to sell their shares for £1500 per share, Earl might want £3000. Just a point i had to make, carry on. EDIT. Incase its not clear. if Everton was valued at £100m, and we sell Baines for £20m, that does not then make Everton worth £80m. Just to extend on StevO's post. That would reduce the base price as well as the brand (which would incorporate the players commercial value), but on the positive side of putting a figure on the club it would reduce our debt to equity ratio. The true value of a player would be one that keeps the ratio constant. But there are many papers on calculating the value of a Sports team as putting everything into monetary terms is difficult. The main problem is that players are both tangible(you can touch them) and intangible assets(you can not directly put a value on ability). Personally I'd include players as their wage plus their market value(problem: difficult to calc unless actually sell). On top of this there is the club's tangible assets. Then there is the problem of measuring a brand value eg. how much is someone willing to pay for a cup compared to how much extra they would pay for an Everton emblem on the same cup. To do this you would also have to incorporate growth as the pool of fans increases the market for Everton goods (this presents another problem of how long you should factor in growth to calc a value for today). Same goes for revenue streams, plus factor in shocks eg. the huge boost from tv, or a European campaign. The academy (coaches and scouts) would be a ballache to include as there is no way to guarantee another Rooney. Best way would be to analyse the % of footballers produced within the allocated boundary and divide between the clubs in that boundary with different weights according to the success of the scouts. Basically 100s of variables to include that may need to be converted from non monetary value so is an estimate that no matter how well worked out, someone will disagree on as they may disagree on discounting factors, what side of the balance sheet something should go on, wether a variable should be included ect. I'm going to finish here as I'm boring myself so more than likely you as well. Point being it is very difficult to put a price on a club that everyone will agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Everton's then Chief Executive Michael Dunford valued the club at £250,000,000 back in 2001 for what it's worth. He based his reasoning on the clubs potential, not basic assets of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 You would include players wages plus market value? That would make Fellaini and Baines about £70m alone! The club would come out with a valuation of about £500m! If you read back at my post, the rest of what you said is the same as what I said. Only I did it in far less words. there is not a set formula for working out the value/cost of a club, it all comes down to opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I don't get the criticism of the Blue Union, they're not happy so are taking responsibility themselves to do something about it. They are not professionals but are pulling their weight the best they can. IT's easy to sit back and pull holes in tactics, but then the detractors should have a look at their own tactics and ask themselves if they are are merely an observer of Everton or a supporter of Everton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I don't get the criticism of the Blue Union, they're not happy so are taking responsibility themselves to do something about it. They are not professionals but are pulling their weight the best they can. IT's easy to sit back and pull holes in tactics, but then the detractors should have a look at their own tactics and ask themselves if they are are merely an observer of Everton or a supporter of Everton. dont mean to sound rude but thats a bunch of crap. 1. What are they doing about it? Parading around like sheep is not a solution nor is it constructive. They have found no potential investment which is what theyre moaning about. Their help was rejected (if it was ever properly offered) by Everton so they started to sulk. 2. It is easy to pull their tactics apart because the "tactics" are rubbish. 3. My tactics as a detractor? I will continue to support the club by getting to as many games as I can and buy as much merchandise as I can. I would not stop going to the game / buying shirts / etc in protest as this then stops the club getting money, money it needs. Also, since im not a professional in Premiership football business management and economics, Ive frankly got nothing to offer. Not doing anything does not make you any less of a supporter. Walking around spouting the same drivel like a spoilt child not getting its own way is just an embarrassment to themselves and the club, and also does not make you less of a supporter. There is no perfect solution to the situation we are in, but im damn sure the way the BU conduct themselves is nothing but a negative mark against the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) dont mean to sound rude but thats a bunch of crap. 1. What are they doing about it? Parading around like sheep is not a solution nor is it constructive. They have found no potential investment which is what theyre moaning about. Their help was rejected (if it was ever properly offered) by Everton so they started to sulk. 2. It is easy to pull their tactics apart because the "tactics" are rubbish. 3. My tactics as a detractor? I will continue to support the club by getting to as many games as I can and buy as much merchandise as I can. I would not stop going to the game / buying shirts / etc in protest as this then stops the club getting money, money it needs. Also, since im not a professional in Premiership football business management and economics, Ive frankly got nothing to offer. Not doing anything does not make you any less of a supporter. Walking around spouting the same drivel like a spoilt child not getting its own way is just an embarrassment to themselves and the club, and also does not make you less of a supporter. There is no perfect solution to the situation we are in, but im damn sure the way the BU conduct themselves is nothing but a negative mark against the club. By protesting they are highlighting a problem, and are publicly highlighting that there needs improvements in the boardroom. If a player plays badly do you think Moyes has a go at the player? I do. Well by protesting that is one way of highlighting to the board that they are not performing well enough. It's a method of communication. You've got a tactic of spending as much money on merchandising as possible. Commendable. In the realisation that Everton are skint, I take it that this now means that you are purposely purchasing more than previously? Now I'm sure you'll agree that this tactic would be better if more Evertonians were doing the same. So are you making moves to encourage more Evertonians to do the same? Can you give me examples on here where you have actively chose to do so? One obstacle you have now doubt met in this is the no colours attitude that may Evertonians have. How are you getting on in tackling this? Any problems? Have you asked for help at all? I haven't come across any movements by anyone to tackle this, so maybe you're struggling to get your message across, or you haven't made any movements. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Should I criticise you for struggling to get the message out. Or should I give you a word of encouragement for trying to get the message out along with advice or help? Edited July 3, 2012 by paul Hafnia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 You would include players wages plus market value? That would make Fellaini and Baines about £70m alone! The club would come out with a valuation of about £500m! If you read back at my post, the rest of what you said is the same as what I said. Only I did it in far less words. there is not a set formula for working out the value/cost of a club, it all comes down to opinions. I was just expanding it for the BU morons who think the value of the club is solely down to Kenwright's opinion, and demonstrating various problems and opinions. Like with the wages, the only direct monetary value for a player, you can play about with it. Some people may believe that human capital is worth equal to their wages, but in football players tend to be sold at a higher cost than their contract so I'd include both. This would also show we get value for money ie. underpay the players for what we get in return, which is shocking considering 70% of revenue goes directly to them. Footballs a freak market, people don't even agree on a theory for a standar human capital valuation paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 By protesting they are highlighting a problem, and are publicly highlighting that there needs improvements in the boardroom. If a player plays badly do you think Moyes has a go at the player? I do. Well by protesting that is one way of highlighting to the board that they are not performing well enough. It's a method of communication. You've got a tactic of spending as much money on merchandising as possible. Commendable. In the realisation that Everton are skint, I take it that this now means that you are purposely purchasing more than previously? Now I'm sure you'll agree that this tactic would be better if more Evertonians were doing the same. So are you making moves to encourage more Evertonians to do the same? Can you give me examples on here where you have actively chose to do so? One obstacle you have now doubt met in this is the no colours attitude that may Evertonians have. How are you getting on in tackling this? Any problems? Have you asked for help at all? I haven't come across any movements by anyone to tackle this, so maybe you're struggling to get your message across, or you haven't made any movements. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Should I criticise you for struggling to get the message out. Or should I give you a word of encouragement for trying to get the message out along with advice or help? Agreed, given the so called super Kitbag deal - does buying merchandise really make a big difference? Not really, it's been exposed for the below average deal that it is. Food and drink at the ground? Outsourced. Do French or Greek protestors who take to the streets all fit a style that makes them acceptable? No. They are making their voices heard and they do get heard, will it change much? maybe not but it expresses the anger that the powers that be have created with their incompetence. A question was asked a few years ago now - "how much?" - has it been answered - no. Have we been sold? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 By protesting they are highlighting a problem, and are publicly highlighting that there needs improvements in the boardroom. Problem was already well known for years. If a player plays badly do you think Moyes has a go at the player? I do. Well by protesting that is one way of highlighting to the board that they are not performing well enough. It's a method of communication. Fair enough, but again how effective is it? Also Employer and employee communication is one thing, customer to supplier is another. You've got a tactic of spending as much money on merchandising as possible. Commendable. In the realisation that Everton are skint, I take it that this now means that you are purposely purchasing more than previously? Not delibrately, I buy when I can afford it (which has only been in the last 5 years or so) and what I like. The LCS shirts in the last few years and Nike stuff has given more reason to buy. My point was this is my way of helping which is effective, and not refusing to buy which hinders (although I can understand the reasons behind refusing, I dont agree with it). Now I'm sure you'll agree that this tactic would be better if more Evertonians were doing the same. So are you making moves to encourage more Evertonians to do the same? Can you give me examples on here where you have actively chose to do so? Ive communicated to family and friends offers or new stuff coming in. Ive encouraged everyone I know pretty much to come the game with me when Im home (since I now live abroad this is only a few games a year, hopefully will change soon though) and usually get 4-5 of us together. Ive put any links for 24hr sales up on here. One obstacle you have now doubt met in this is the no colours attitude that may Evertonians have. How are you getting on in tackling this? Any problems? Have you asked for help at all? Can you explain what you mean by "no colours". I haven't come across any movements by anyone to tackle this, so maybe you're struggling to get your message across, or you haven't made any movements. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Should I criticise you for struggling to get the message out. Or should I give you a word of encouragement for trying to get the message out along with advice or help? Look, I think the BU intentions initially were good but poorly executed. They then started to contradict themselves somewhat and whenever they give statements its the same format; start reasonable for the 1st paragraph before descending into sniping. The biggest thing I have a problem with is their either refusal or inability to give a balanced argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 oh god the how much question again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Agreed, given the so called super Kitbag deal - does buying merchandise really make a big difference? Not really, it's been exposed for the below average deal that it is. Food and drink at the ground? Outsourced. Do French or Greek protestors who take to the streets all fit a style that makes them acceptable? No. They are making their voices heard and they do get heard, will it change much? maybe not but it expresses the anger that the powers that be have created with their incompetence. A question was asked a few years ago now - "how much?" - has it been answered - no. Have we been sold? No. are we entitled to know? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 are we entitled to know? No. Considering the money the fans put into the club in the various forms, there is surely a case to say we should know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 are we entitled to know? No. Are we entitled? No - there is no law. "Do we deserve" - to which the answer is a resounding yes. If it wasn't for the fact that we are now years down the line with the only money coming into the club being from that of the fans, player sales, TV and Premier league then most definately. The fan base is paramount to the clubs survival - they can not keep closing the door on us, we have been silenced (AGM's) - banners confiscated, hit with ridiculous spin whilst suffering that disgrace of what wass Ian Ross. People pay good money to publicise something that is for sale - so unless the figure is something that is likely to cause outrage among the fans then I don't see any other reason as to why they haven't done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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