Moyes

[Avinalaff]

Can't believe some of you want Moyes out.

 

Exactly what do you think would change by doing this? Do you think another manager would get money to spend? Do you think he would pick a different team than Moyes? If any of you have ever played in a team, you'll know that the guys that get picked are the guys that are playing the best in training, and on the pitch. If you aren't doing it in training, why will you do it in a match? Some of our players might be below standard in training, and that is why they aren't getting played. We have the smallest selection of options in the whole league, so Moyes plays the team he feels best for the job. Sometimes he gets it right, and sometimes he gets it wrong, but there are only a handful of teams that are finishing above us each year, and those teams are rich. Look at any team above us, and then look at their squads? Their managers have Ferraris to call upon, while Moyes has Morris Minors and Hillman Imps.

Time a few of you whiners looked at the bigger picture.

[StevO]

for the record, i dont think ive seen anyone say they want him out.

[Lowensda]

I don't want him out. I'd like him to change the record though and do something that mirrors the 'attacking' styles of every other team in the prem. That'd be nice

[Hafnia]

Can't believe some of you want Moyes out.

 

Exactly what do you think would change by doing this? Do you think another manager would get money to spend? Do you think he would pick a different team than Moyes? If any of you have ever played in a team, you'll know that the guys that get picked are the guys that are playing the best in training, and on the pitch. If you aren't doing it in training, why will you do it in a match? Some of our players might be below standard in training, and that is why they aren't getting played. We have the smallest selection of options in the whole league, so Moyes plays the team he feels best for the job. Sometimes he gets it right, and sometimes he gets it wrong, but there are only a handful of teams that are finishing above us each year, and those teams are rich. Look at any team above us, and then look at their squads? Their managers have Ferraris to call upon, while Moyes has Morris Minors and Hillman Imps.

Time a few of you whiners looked at the bigger picture.

 

You may have a point, but if I need to go to Finch farm to see:

• Jags having no brain lapses where he doesnt play hoof ball and he is much better than heitinga
  
• Osman ripping it up on the left wing
  
• Cahill scoring freely
  
• Neville running the midfield
  

Then i'm afraid my opinion as a spectator is clouded.

 

That said I don't think it is - I'm not being sarcastic, but seriously Moyes takes forever to make decisions. Especially at the risk of upsetting a fav.

[Romey 1878]

im sure he is nice, but im bored to death of us being nice.

everton are the nice guys of the prem, everyone likes plucky old everton!

 

i want everton to be hated, teams who are hated are feared by other teams, get more decisions.

we dont badger the ref, we are polite and stand back, we've even seen our wall at free kicks moved forwards by the ref before. while other clubs cloud the ref and get decisions.

 

everyone likes a crewe or a southampton, while united and chelsea are hated they pick up the medals.

 

 

My thoughts exactly and I've said it before.

[Lowensda]

 

 

My thoughts exactly and I've said it before.

 

Have you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

[Avinalaff]

 

You may have a point, but if I need to go to Finch farm to see:

• Jags having no brain lapses where he doesnt play hoof ball and he is much better than heitinga
  
• Osman ripping it up on the left wing
  
• Cahill scoring freely
  
• Neville running the midfield
  

Then i'm afraid my opinion as a spectator is clouded.

 

 

That said I don't think it is - I'm not being sarcastic, but seriously Moyes takes forever to make decisions. Especially at the risk of upsetting a fav.

 

Haf, we rarely agree on Everton politics, but I think we get on pretty well and respect each others opinions all the same. As fans, we don't know half of what goes on behind the scenes, we really don't.

 

We don't know what contracts are drawn up, or what training practises we have, or lots of other things. We just watch the game, and pass comment, no different to any other fan. I scratch my head as much as the next guy plenty of times, but the thought of sacking Moyes has 'never' crossed my mind while I've been in a stable state of mind i.e not after we've been beaten 6-0, etc. I'd like to see what Moyes could do if he had the players he wanted.

We were playing awesome football only 2 seasons ago, and I mean truly awesome. It was like watching Barcelona on steroids. The problem was we couldn't score, but we didn't have the cash to buy a top class striker. Had we bought Tevez and Van Persie, or similar, we would have been some team, so we can't say Moyes doesn't know how to get the team playing. Bring things forward, we have lost key players, and not just any old key players, but our best players. It's kind of like United losing their best 6 players, and then trying to win the league. It ain't gonna happen. Moyes has to be resourceful, and find what works again with what he has. In any case, he can't make mediocre players world beaters. Without signing at least 6 players, we will not improve, as Moyes will not have options. We're already playing kids, such is the situation. Those kids might be great, but we still need to get more players. That's one of the reasons getting Mcfadden in wasn't the worst business in the world. Come the end of the seasaon, we will lose a lot of other players too. Our situation isn't great, but heck, I'd rather Moyes was dealing with it than some other manager. Are we going to get above the big teams with another manager? We both know the answer to that.

[Hafnia]

 

Haf, we rarely agree on Everton politics, but I think we get on pretty well and respect each others opinions all the same. As fans, we don't know half of what goes on behind the scenes, we really don't.

 

We don't know what contracts are drawn up, or what training practises we have, or lots of other things. We just watch the game, and pass comment, no different to any other fan. I scratch my head as much as the next guy plenty of times, but the thought of sacking Moyes has 'never' crossed my mind while I've been in a stable state of mind i.e not after we've been beaten 6-0, etc. I'd like to see what Moyes could do if he had the players he wanted.

We were playing awesome football only 2 seasons ago, and I mean truly awesome. It was like watching Barcelona on steroids. The problem was we couldn't score, but we didn't have the cash to buy a top class striker. Had we bought Tevez and Van Persie, or similar, we would have been some team, so we can't say Moyes doesn't know how to get the team playing. Bring things forward, we have lost key players, and not just any old key players, but our best players. It's kind of like United losing their best 6 players, and then trying to win the league. It ain't gonna happen. Moyes has to be resourceful, and find what works again with what he has. In any case, he can't make mediocre players world beaters. Without signing at least 6 players, we will not improve, as Moyes will not have options. We're already playing kids, such is the situation. Those kids might be great, but we still need to get more players. That's one of the reasons getting Mcfadden in wasn't the worst business in the world. Come the end of the seasaon, we will lose a lot of other players too. Our situation isn't great, but heck, I'd rather Moyes was dealing with it than some other manager. Are we going to get above the big teams with another manager? We both know the answer to that.

 

Moyes is in a unique position, his tactical and selection "bloopers" are overlooked in the main (national journos) because the first thing on their mind is "poor old Everton, Moyes the miracle worker, who would do the job he does?"

 

I look at it in a balanced way, yes he does deserve the money to be judged against his peers, many want that to happen as it will be the only way we can ever understand if he is a top manager.

 

I think he is a great organiser, disciplinarian and has a great work ethic. That does not make him a great manager IMO

[Romey 1878]

 

Have you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......

 

 

You need a good clip around the ear!

[Avinalaff]

 

Moyes is in a unique position, his tactical and selection "bloopers" are overlooked in the main (national journos) because the first thing on their mind is "poor old Everton, Moyes the miracle worker, who would do the job he does?"

 

I look at it in a balanced way, yes he does deserve the money to be judged against his peers, many want that to happen as it will be the only way we can ever understand if he is a top manager.

 

I think he is a great organiser, disciplinarian and has a great work ethic. That does not make him a great manager IMO

 

What 'would' make him a great manager Haf?

 

Would Ferguson win the league with the team we have now?

 

Moyes is still fairly young. Is he not allowed to serve his time and learn his trade?

[Hafnia]

 

What 'would' make him a great manager Haf?

 

Would Ferguson win the league with the team we have now?

 

Moyes is still fairly young. Is he not allowed to serve his time and learn his trade?

 

To be able to have a plan B is a deffo starter, to be able to get the best out of players like Billy (play him behind striker?), to identify where things aren't going right and make the correct subs (hibbert on for last 10 when chasing a goal), to have a team play to a strikers strengths (yak running channels etc ) - that would be a start. Not setting up a team to park the bus against City, not playing 4-5-1 against weaker teams at home.

 

These are the continual sources of irritation that Moyes has, his loyalty to Ancihebe, a misfiring Cahill, playing Felli attacking mid, playing rodders right wing - just add them on.

 

 

Ferguson wouldn't win the league but he would win games - and some comfortably. He would have us playing with tempo, retaining the ball, he would haul jags off for his lumped balls and yes he would have found something Billy is good at - expolited it, then sold him for £12m.

 

How long is moyes young for? He's had 10 years managing us, and shows very little in way of learnings.

[Avinalaff]

Well, ok. I'm not David's personal defence, so I'll leave my thoughts amongst those of others and retire gracefully into the night.

[Bailey]

Can't believe some of you want Moyes out.

 

Exactly what do you think would change by doing this? Do you think another manager would get money to spend? Do you think he would pick a different team than Moyes? If any of you have ever played in a team, you'll know that the guys that get picked are the guys that are playing the best in training, and on the pitch. If you aren't doing it in training, why will you do it in a match? Some of our players might be below standard in training, and that is why they aren't getting played. We have the smallest selection of options in the whole league, so Moyes plays the team he feels best for the job. Sometimes he gets it right, and sometimes he gets it wrong, but there are only a handful of teams that are finishing above us each year, and those teams are rich. Look at any team above us, and then look at their squads? Their managers have Ferraris to call upon, while Moyes has Morris Minors and Hillman Imps.

Time a few of you whiners looked at the bigger picture.

 

Other teams may well have spent millions but how many of these expensive players can these managers say have actually brought something to their team. Probably not that many, which ironically is probably Moyes biggest asset.

 

I think there are a few managers out there who could do better with the players we have. Infact I actually think that if we were being managed by somebody else and Moyes came in to replace him, then he himself would improve this team. I sometimes get the feeling he needs to step back, look at the quality he has available and start from scratch almost. We know he can set out teams to win games, we know he can get the best from certain players where other managers have struggled, but at the he isnt doing good enough. I dont mean that in the sense that he isnt good enough for Everton Nil Satis etc etc, I mean that he is performing to the best of his ability and reaching the high standards he has set for himself.

 

I think he is a great organiser, disciplinarian and has a great work ethic. That does not make him a great manager IMO

 

That last sentence links in with my comments above, in that this is what I used to think or Moyes and the Everton sides he put out, but now I see less organisation, lack of discipline from some players & even a drop in work rate on occasions too. The last couple of games have shown improvement in patches, but I think we are shadow of the team we were 4-5 years ago in these areas.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Haf, we rarely agree on Everton politics, but I think we get on pretty well and respect each others opinions all the same. As fans, we don't know half of what goes on behind the scenes, we really don't.

 

We don't know what contracts are drawn up, or what training practises we have, or lots of other things. We just watch the game, and pass comment, no different to any other fan. I scratch my head as much as the next guy plenty of times, but the thought of sacking Moyes has 'never' crossed my mind while I've been in a stable state of mind i.e not after we've been beaten 6-0, etc. I'd like to see what Moyes could do if he had the players he wanted.

We were playing awesome football only 2 seasons ago, and I mean truly awesome. It was like watching Barcelona on steroids. The problem was we couldn't score, but we didn't have the cash to buy a top class striker. Had we bought Tevez and Van Persie, or similar, we would have been some team, so we can't say Moyes doesn't know how to get the team playing. Bring things forward, we have lost key players, and not just any old key players, but our best players. It's kind of like United losing their best 6 players, and then trying to win the league. It ain't gonna happen. Moyes has to be resourceful, and find what works again with what he has. In any case, he can't make mediocre players world beaters. Without signing at least 6 players, we will not improve, as Moyes will not have options. We're already playing kids, such is the situation. Those kids might be great, but we still need to get more players. That's one of the reasons getting Mcfadden in wasn't the worst business in the world. Come the end of the seasaon, we will lose a lot of other players too. Our situation isn't great, but heck, I'd rather Moyes was dealing with it than some other manager. Are we going to get above the big teams with another manager? We both know the answer to that.

 

Totally Agree

 

I would even go as far as to say we were playing excellent football as recently as last season. We started off playing some superb stuff (Villa away) but as ever we had nobody at the club who could score goals

 

If Moyse really was playing his favourites, was tactically inept, always putting square pegs in round holes by choice, had no plan B and all the other things he is accused of in here then why the f*ck dont you guys want him sacked?

Edited November 3, 2011 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

To be able to have a plan B is a deffo starter, to be able to get the best out of players like Billy (play him behind striker?), to identify where things aren't going right and make the correct subs (hibbert on for last 10 when chasing a goal), to have a team play to a strikers strengths (yak running channels etc ) - that would be a start. Not setting up a team to park the bus against City, not playing 4-5-1 against weaker teams at home.

 

These are the continual sources of irritation that Moyes has, his loyalty to Ancihebe, a misfiring Cahill, playing Felli attacking mid, playing rodders right wing - just add them on.

 

 

Ferguson wouldn't win the league but he would win games - and some comfortably. He would have us playing with tempo, retaining the ball, he would haul jags off for his lumped balls and yes he would have found something Billy is good at - expolited it, then sold him for £12m.

 

How long is moyes young for? He's had 10 years managing us, and shows very little in way of learnings.

 

 

If Moyse cant win games do you mind telling me how we have managed to consistently finish in the top 7?

[marcus jones]

Moyes seems to me to be the ''General manager'' of a club, deciding transfers, contracts, style of play etc....... maybe a young Mourinho, Guardiola/Avb would be the way forward? Not as a replacement but as a motivational, tactician on the bench with DM. All the aforementioned started off as such, why can't we find our own whizkid? Or does Moyes sees this as a threat if the new guy changes us for the better?

[pete0]

Moyes seems to me to be the ''General manager'' of a club, deciding transfers, contracts, style of play etc....... maybe a young Mourinho, Guardiola/Avb would be the way forward? Not as a replacement but as a motivational, tactician on the bench with DM. All the aforementioned started off as such, why can't we find our own whizkid? Or does Moyes sees this as a threat if the new guy changes us for the better?

I think the opposite, as thats basically Round atm. Moyes is stubborn and his no.2 is seen as a yes man.

Think the opposite, a older person with more experience would be better as Moyes would be more likely to listen. Peter Reid maybe, he's not the best manager but I think he could make a good assistant.

[Avinalaff]

Maybe we should get Sven.

[pete0]

Maybe we should get Sven.

Great manager, out of our budget though.

[Avinalaff]

Great manager, out of our budget though.

 

I was thinking as a number 2, but I agree he is expensive.

[Hafnia]

 

 

 

If Moyse cant win games do you mind telling me how we have managed to consistently finish in the top 7?

 

Because there have always been 12 teams worse than us to be honest. Over the past 7 years we should have been European ever presents. We have had players far better than they have credited for, moyes can take credit for that the same way he can take the rap for having them play out of position, conservative etc etc

[FanchesterCity]

Surely over 38 games and multiple seasons, the tables don't lie?

 

I can see the argument for saying you'd have done better if players were in the right positions, but then that would turn the tables from 'hasn't Moyes done well with what he's got' into 'Consistently underperformed under his stewardship' and that would be hard to believe.

 

Every club has the odd year when they didn't finish as high as you thought you could, and if we're honest, years when thing go a bit better than you'd expect, but to be ever presents in Europe for 7 years is no mean feat unless you're in the former Sky 4.

 

Out of curiousity when you say 'Europe' I'm assuming you mean Europa League sometimes, and not CL? I'd be stunnned if you meant CL!

 

If you do mean EL too, then would I be right in thinking you're saying you should be in the top 6 for the last 7 years? that's a pretty tall order.

 

Man U - virtual guarantee

Chelsea - virtual guarantee

Arsenal - virtual guarantee

Liverpool - probably the strongest candidate thereafter

Everton - strong candidate

Tottenham - strong candidate

Aston Villa - candidate

Man City - candidate

Fulham - possibles

Sunderland - possibles

an other - (there's ALWAYS a dark horse every season!)

 

 

When you list them like that - I'd say Everton could 'reasonably' expect to be in Europe most seasons, but it's also likely there'd be one or two seasons when they get nudged out.

 

The last couple of years though have seen City and Spurs step up, Everton and Villa drop a bit and Liverpool a bit of a lottery.

 

I'd say 4 or 5 times out the last 7 you should have been in Europe.

[FanchesterCity]

Last 7 years for Everton:

 

7,8,5,5,6,11,4

 

That's fairly consistent 'hovering around the top 6' (with the obvious 'off' year)

 

That's pretty bloody good in my opinion. It's only the last 3 years where a couple of other teams (Spurs and City) have nudged you down a bit, and at SIGNIFICANT cost to do so.

 

I'm simply not convinced any other manager would be a certainty to have done better than Moyes. Maybe they would, but there'd also be every chance you'd have done worse too.

 

 

[marcus jones]

Is Moyes ''All that?'' I don't know, steady, reliable, honest, hard working, astute, fastidious, predictable, stubborn he is. I like him, doing wonders with almost bugger all. At this moment he is what we need most. But I feel he just lacks that '' up and at em'' mentality. Maybe I'm being harsh, but I want, and know he can do much more........

[FanchesterCity]

I don't know. He's never really come across as 'all out to entertain', but that's not his job I suppose. His job to sustain Everton's long term future by ensuring they say in PL and where possible try to get into Europe. I'd say he's done his job very well.

 

You can look at Mourinho, or maybe even Mancini as a bit more flamboyant (although the latter is quite dull in many respects), or you can look at your 'salt of the earth' types - like Harry, Allardyce, McCarthy, Coyle etc - would you REALLY prefer one of the latter 3?

 

Even with guys like O'Neill who look reasonably attractive on paper haven't set the world alight.

 

So what / who's left? One of the up and coming young managers? or a foreigner like Jol, Grant, ranieri, etc?

 

I can't see any other (plausible) manager where you'd ditch Moyes in certainty you'd be moving up a notch.

 

By plausible I mean - Ancelotti, Ranieri, Jol, Mancini (was plausible a few years ago), Hughes, O'Neill, Benitez (don't say a word!), Houlier (don't say a word), Gullit, Hodgson (don't say a word)

 

Hand on heart - can you really say any of these are certain to be better?

 

 

The thing with Moyes is - nobody KNOWS if he's all that. He's not had a chance to truly compete at the top. If you do get new owners, I suspect they'd change managers anyway, if only to bring in a 'big name', as is the fashion these days (Blackburn aside!).

 

All of that said, many fans say you need stability at a club and need to give the manager time. It's fair comment to say Moyes has had time! Sometimes, it's not that he's done anything wrong, but the club needs a change?

[marcus jones]

Not mentioning a change, just want him to evolve as a manager, not stand still.

[FanchesterCity]

But how? seriously.

 

He's losing players, at the same time as having no money to replace like with like, so has to resort to cheap buys and hope he can improve them.

 

All the while, a couple of other teams are upsetting the apple cart with the Sky+ which (arguably) is making the former top 4 panic and spend too!

 

If there was ever a time to move forwards it was a couple of years ago. Now, it's a case of keeping the boat steady I think (sadly).

 

Obviously, I'm not seeing it as a heartfelt Evertonian, but to the outsider, it really does look like he's holding the fort while those upstairs are losing the plot (a situation all too common - ask City, Leeds, Newcastle fans!)

 

[Avinalaff]

Normally 7th place is good enough to be in the Europa league. We were slightly unlucky last season. Bluesky raises fair comments. We need to stop thinking we have a divine right first of all. There are 20 teams in this league, and all of them want the same as us. We're still doing better than most of them.

[Bailey]

I dont think some of you quite get the reason why people (well me anyway ) are starting to go against Moyes. Its not because he is a bad manager or because we feel like we have a divine right. We have seen what Moyes can do with those at his disposal, but for the majority of the last 2 or possibly 3 years we havent shown what we are capable of as a team (and no Dunc I didnt think we played that great in the Villa game - lots of possession, but very few open play chances). We have gradually declined into playing slower, pressing less, sitting deeper & taking less chances/risks going forward yet the actual starting line-up is not too much different in terms of the quality of personell.

 

The one example I will keep going back to of this difference is the Liverpool game at home last season. We were brilliant in that first half, we pressed high up the pitch, with lots of energy, we terrorrised whoever had the ball, and when we won the ball back we attacked with pace and freedom. The formation & roles suited the individual players (Heitinga was the deeper in the first half with Arteta higher up the pitch with Cahill, Yakubu as the loan front man and only Osman probably the odd one out playing on the left (although he did a good job linking with Baines before he got injured)). Liverpool didnt know what hit them, yet while we would have routed inferior teams and given the big boys a real good game, we ended up dropping points to crap teams and gave the better teams more of a chance than they should have.

 

Given our resources, if we want to be successful then we have to play that way and fight for every blade of grass. We have had spells like that in the previous couple of seasons, but it has never carried on from game to game or eve half to half. We give good teams too much room to play and they punish us for it. Last season we gave average teams too much room to play and they punished us. We need to snap out of it, get that backs to the wall attitude back again and remind people what this club is about.

[Oztoffee]

I dont think some of you quite get the reason why people (well me anyway ) are starting to go against Moyes. Its not because he is a bad manager or because we feel like we have a divine right. We have seen what Moyes can do with those at his disposal, but for the majority of the last 2 or possibly 3 years we havent shown what we are capable of as a team (and no Dunc I didnt think we played that great in the Villa game - lots of possession, but very few open play chances). We have gradually declined into playing slower, pressing less, sitting deeper & taking less chances/risks going forward yet the actual starting line-up is not too much different in terms of the quality of personell.

 

The one example I will keep going back to of this difference is the Liverpool game at home last season. We were brilliant in that first half, we pressed high up the pitch, with lots of energy, we terrorrised whoever had the ball, and when we won the ball back we attacked with pace and freedom. The formation & roles suited the individual players (Heitinga was the deeper in the first half with Arteta higher up the pitch with Cahill, Yakubu as the loan front man and only Osman probably the odd one out playing on the left (although he did a good job linking with Baines before he got injured)). Liverpool didnt know what hit them, yet while we would have routed inferior teams and given the big boys a real good game, we ended up dropping points to crap teams and gave the better teams more of a chance than they should have.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. It really does just seem as if Moyes and some players have forgotten what the whole game is about. A want- to- win- attitude is a wonderful thing to have, yet it seems to be sadly lacking for whole games or part-games. Dropping points (and whole games) to very inferior teams seems to be a regular ocurrence rather than one-off mishaps.

It is frightening that we can play both so well and so badly in the same game because of tactical changes and baffling substitutions. It scares the shit out of me: the opposition just have sit it out and wait for the changes and they're back in the game!

 

We certainly have not shown anything like the form or the attitude that is required to be successful. In fact we look like a team scared to death of losing and many of the team selections and substitutions seem only to bolster that view. We need to go out to win games, not go out to save a point. That's why they changed to 3 points for a win. And a point a game means guaranteed relegation!