Would you invest in E f C?

[drs08]

Hey,

 

I have just finished reading this article on Dixies sixty (Great site btw) and it got me thinking , I wonder how many people really would be prepared to invest if the opportunity arose!?

 

I for one would be able to get my hands on in the region of £5000 and I was just really interested to see what (potential) results may come from these questions?

 

I'm not trying to get ahead of myself BUT we need £ and we need it now and (in principle) who better to run the club than US!!

 

It may be a pie dream but at least lets collate some results?

 

Here's the link: http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=5t6qexggsctw75k964364

 

COYB

[Romey 1878]

I believe each and every Everton fan already invests in Everton in some way or another already so I don't see why it couldn't work.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Romey 1878

[drs08]

I believe each and every Everton fan already invests in Everton in some way or another already so I don't see why it couldn't work.

 

Exactly so please fill in the survey so we can get some real-time results?

[MikeO]

I'd invest....but it wouldn't be four figures...unless the wife unexpectedly lapses into a coma .

[SimonButtle]

Sure if i had the cash then defo, it does work, i mean look at Barca, they are a fan run club, and look where they are? they have an amazing youth setup and an amazing first team, and can attract massive sponsorship deals, it can be done

[Lowensda]

I put the link in the other thread before.

 

I would, if i had the money. At the moment i struggle to just pay bills, petrol and food. So as much as i'd like to, i wouldn't be able to.

[drs08]

OK, then choose between 1 - 1000, we can't all go on carry on moaning at our lack of investment and then not be able to put our hand sin our pockets for something surely!?

[Lowensda]

Secondly regarding that survey, there is no time scale. So are we talking £1000 per season, or during a lifetime?

 

i think that is something that's vitally important for people to know prior to completing that survey (of 2 questions).

 

Would i pump £1000 over 10 years? Probably. Would i spend £1000 over one season? no.

[Wall Writer]

Haha! I remember I posted such a topic on here a fair while back and was shot down. In truth I think it's something that definitely needs looking into. It would certainly be an innovative approach (at least as far as the Premiership/UK/England, was concerned). I've no idea if it could or would work, but it's a more pro-active approach than sitting around hoping that we're gonna win the lottery someday.

[Lowensda]

OK, then choose between 1 - 1000, we can't all go on carry on moaning at our lack of investment and then not be able to put our hand sin our pockets for something surely!?

 

I haven't, but your implying i should stop buying food to help the club? sorry, how selfish of me. I only worked 3 jobs a week when i was 17 to pay for my season ticket, sorry for being so inconsiderate now.

 

or maybe because I don't earn enough now that i can't fork out anywhere between £1-£1000 every season. Technically speaking i've spent just over £300 already this season, based on Shirts, Games and travel...or again, is that being selfish?

 

Fuck it. I'll give an extra £300 quid because there's nothing slike starving when Everton are doing well. Brilliant idea.

 

Be realistic

[Avinalaff]

There are 30+ football players earning millions every year and you want skint fans to cough up?

[FanchesterCity]

I think it's a DISASTER to look at Barca - it's just unrealistic, and they owe a fortune!

 

Of course, in theory, any club could eventually rise the dizzying heights of Barca / Real / Utd etc - but realistically, it's folly to go down that path.

 

Make no mistake here, you (the fans) are already putting in plenty of money into Everton with gate receipts and pies etc... Everton's weakest area is in the corporate side, and that's not something fan ownership will help.

 

It's very romantic to think fan ownership if the answer - but you still end up with the same issues - do you, or don't you move? do you, or do you not sell a key player? etc, and you still end up with 50/50 split amongst the fans.

 

The people making the decisions at Barca are still an elite few. The fact that Barca HAPPEN to be superb at the moment is nothing to do with the ownership - they've been fan owned for ages (late 50s I think) and didn't do particularly well for donkeys years.

 

Barca are a wonderful club, and happen to be fan owned, but don't make the mistake of thinking Everton can be similar.

 

Barca have (approx 23% of the Spanish fan base). No club in England comes close. United MIGHT be about 10% at a push.

 

In Spain, they don't call it 'shareholders', it's membership, but for all intents and purposes, there's not a huge difference, other than (would have to check facts on this), you can't buy multiple memberships (so you can't have a 'bigger' say, in theory).

 

Nice idea, but in there is no evidence to suggest it's any better an option than private investors buying shares and injecting some money.

When you've put in a grand of your own hard earned money and the club get relegated - it's still going to hurt just as much AND you'll get bitter too!.... and at least 50% of you will still think there are idiots running the club.

 

Just my opinion like!

[FanchesterCity]

Look at it this way...

 

If a club can't find very smart investors prepared to invest their money in the club and run it as a decent business and hopefully get a great team going too - then what's that saying?

By the time the fans are offered the option, nobody else wanted it.

 

Bit cynical, but that's the long and short of it.

 

Admittedly, the fans won't expect the same 'return' on their investment - they'd probably settle for good performances and a bit of success...

 

 

but the most likely scenario is that 100,000 fans stump up say 500 quid each = 50,000,000 that's 50 million. Pay off the debt? spend it on players? what? - two years down the line, the money's gone and you're back to square one.

 

The ONLY way Everton can really get back on track is with sustained investment and of course, a real turnaround as a business (unless you get a sugar daddy in).

Football clubs tend not to make any money - they're a hiding to nothing, and therefore YOUR money would be a hiding to nothing. You'd be buying a short lived improvement in Everton's fortunes.

 

The only serious money coming into clubs is the CL teams and the associated extra revenue from that. And even those teams are generally not doing too well financially (except Arsenal)

 

So no, I wouldn't be investing in Everton (or any other club) as an 'investor' it's a mugs game.

 

Even Chelsea and City aren't invested in to make serious money - they are vehicles to promote other stuff. Football clubs are just bad business 'as is'. Pure and simple..

[pete0]

Look at it this way...

 

If a club can't find very smart investors prepared to invest their money in the club and run it as a decent business and hopefully get a great team going too - then what's that saying?

By the time the fans are offered the option, nobody else wanted it.

 

Bit cynical, but that's the long and short of it.

 

Admittedly, the fans won't expect the same 'return' on their investment - they'd probably settle for good performances and a bit of success...

 

 

but the most likely scenario is that 100,000 fans stump up say 500 quid each = 50,000,000 that's 50 million. Pay off the debt? spend it on players? what? - two years down the line, the money's gone and you're back to square one.

 

The ONLY way Everton can really get back on track is with sustained investment and of course, a real turnaround as a business (unless you get a sugar daddy in).

Football clubs tend not to make any money - they're a hiding to nothing, and therefore YOUR money would be a hiding to nothing. You'd be buying a short lived improvement in Everton's fortunes.

 

The only serious money coming into clubs is the CL teams and the associated extra revenue from that. And even those teams are generally not doing too well financially (except Arsenal)

 

So no, I wouldn't be investing in Everton (or any other club) as an 'investor' it's a mugs game.

 

Even Chelsea and City aren't invested in to make serious money - they are vehicles to promote other stuff. Football clubs are just bad business 'as is'. Pure and simple..

Pay off the debt, then we would be fully self sufficient. At the moment interest payments are killing us. It would also make Everton a more attractive investment as well.

[drs08]

fair play!

[FanchesterCity]

90% of sound financial advice would tell you to pay off the debt - as you say, it stops the interest payments too...

 

BUT, you have to ask yourself how did you get into that debt, and what's changed to prevent it? anything?

 

Not only that, but even if you get back to 'zero' - you then have to set about making a profit which is damn hard to do.

 

You COULD put up your ticket prices (but that can be a highly dangerous move), and you're making as much from gate receipts as most other clubs. It's the commercial arm of Everton that's not doing as well as it should - and some of that is due to the stadium, some of it possibly not marketing yourselves as well as others - BUT, you need to have something to market like... a new ground, marquee signings blah blah blah.

 

I just can't see how a one off cash injection to pay off the debt will do anything other than give your a holiday for a couple of years then you'll start slipping back again.

 

This seems to be the pattern for virtually all clubs with the exception of the sugar daddy ones. No matter how much you give a club, they spend it and end up where they began, or worse still, in more debt than ever. Almost like gamblers who keep borrowing 50 quid to win back their losses....

 

I'm not really sure what the answer is to be honest. I really fear for the whole game and think there's a huge crash coming. I just hate to think of fans ploughing yet more money into clubs and losing that too. They're already being taken for a ride (Everton fans included) and don't deserve to be shafted even more.

 

And when I say 'taken for a ride' I don't mean specifically mean Everton fans, I mean ALL fans. We're all being taken for a ride by our clubs, make no mistake!

[FanchesterCity]

If you take a club worth (say) 100 million and it owes 30 million...

 

you can dilute the shares (double the number of shares, and make each one worth less) - that can upset the existing share holders who see their share half, BUT it can put much needed cash into the company.

 

But, the company stays the same... if it wasn't a profitable company before, it won't be after. Of course you can keep the wolf at bay for a while, but you'll eventually perform just the way you always did - unless there's a regime change that goes with it.

 

IF you can convince investors that you need a specific cash injection to CHANGE the way something is working (and not just offset a current debt) then that is more attractive.

So, for instance, IF you say "we need to raise 200 million for a stadium, and here's how the stadium will then contribute to a much better financial situation for the club"

 

On a basic level, it's like asking your mate to lend you another 10 quid so you can gamble on the horses again... nothing's changed.

If you "lend me 10 quid so I can buy some new tools and get myself a job and pay you back" then that stands a much more likely chance of working.

 

Slightly simplistic analogy, I accept, but sometimes, reality is quite simple.

[FairWooney]

some good posts from you in the last few days fanchester, mostly not really coming up with anything new but a decent neutral perspective.

 

Just wondering (apart from having joined just after we played you) why you've such a sudden interest in us! I'm always interested in more neutral views of our club but just amazed by such lengthy responses from someone supporting another club!

 

 

It's a nice idea on the money front but I do agree with the shitty fan that it's not only loan repayments that are stopping us turning a profit at the moment. We didn't make a profit in 2010 prior to Interest and tax without making 19 million in sales. It would definately be a turn in the right direction but would need to be backed up by an improvment somewhere to make an operating profit. Even still we wouldn't have any transfer funds

 

 

While Barca do have a membership scheme it shouldn't be forgotten that they earn a massive amount from TV rights, they made £178million in 2009/10 this is down to the pretty unfair way that Spain allow their TV rights to be done which leads to the massive gulf between the big clubs and the rest.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I'd invest....but it wouldn't be four figures...unless the wife unexpectedly lapses into a coma .

 

Lol My case would be the other way around

 

If I invested four figures the wife definitely would slip into a coma

 

 

..............................Who do I make the cheque out to?

[pete0]

90% of sound financial advice would tell you to pay off the debt - as you say, it stops the interest payments too...

 

BUT, you have to ask yourself how did you get into that debt, and what's changed to prevent it? anything?

 

Not only that, but even if you get back to 'zero' - you then have to set about making a profit which is damn hard to do.

 

You COULD put up your ticket prices (but that can be a highly dangerous move), and you're making as much from gate receipts as most other clubs. It's the commercial arm of Everton that's not doing as well as it should - and some of that is due to the stadium, some of it possibly not marketing yourselves as well as others - BUT, you need to have something to market like... a new ground, marquee signings blah blah blah.

 

I just can't see how a one off cash injection to pay off the debt will do anything other than give your a holiday for a couple of years then you'll start slipping back again.

 

This seems to be the pattern for virtually all clubs with the exception of the sugar daddy ones. No matter how much you give a club, they spend it and end up where they began, or worse still, in more debt than ever. Almost like gamblers who keep borrowing 50 quid to win back their losses....

 

I'm not really sure what the answer is to be honest. I really fear for the whole game and think there's a huge crash coming. I just hate to think of fans ploughing yet more money into clubs and losing that too. They're already being taken for a ride (Everton fans included) and don't deserve to be shafted even more.

 

And when I say 'taken for a ride' I don't mean specifically mean Everton fans, I mean ALL fans. We're all being taken for a ride by our clubs, make no mistake!

Spent money that was due to be invested only for the investor to disappear, and more recently raised the wages of our players thanks to the extra tv money, but with an extra boost to try and deter teams like city. If city hadn't been taken over theres no way Arteta would have got £75k a week, but even Anichebe managed to get significant wages thanks to Hull.

[Matt]

yes. wife wants to spend 800 quid on a fecking wedding album, i should be allowed to do the same right?

[Avinalaff]

yes. wife wants to spend 800 quid on a fecking wedding album, i should be allowed to do the same right?

 

Matt, you need to have a word mate.

[FanchesterCity]

My interest in Everton? none at all!

 

If I get a decent debate with other fans I'm happy. I just don't have time for the anti City feeling... or 'anti' anything really. I genuinely believe most fans are the same ultimately and are interested in perceptions about their own team, try to right a few wrongs about misperceptions and if they've any sense, want to better understand what's going on in football in general (esp the money troubles of late).

 

When a club like Everton are struggling, something somewhere is wrong.

Ok - old ground, but equally, it's a great example of footballing roots - it's not a bad thing to be old / traditional style ground.

Good fan base - consistently well supported, consistently top tier and no real history of wild spending or crazy chairmen.

 

So - if THEY are having difficulties, it's just a red flag for me.

Portsmouth? - I can understand - you could see it coming!

But not Everton.

 

We had a right bunch of morons running our club for years (most with very honourable intentions) and it actually took a bunch of mercenaries to kick our ass into shape, and we've a long way to go.

I'm no an Everton fan, clearly, so don't dare suggest what Everton fans should or shouldn't think... but I will express an opinion and have no time for mickey taking.

 

I struggle to understand why folks almost 'expect' other fans to start mocking. Of course there'll be a few morons who will mock anything, but most simply don't find ANY of what's going on in football funny, and Evertons spot of money troubles is only what man other clubs are experiencing too.

 

I do think though, that fans struggle to be honest with themselves. I like to think of City as a friendly club, but once in a while you see the morons that City have (in parts) and get a glimpse of what Away fans are seeing.

In the same way, forums like this should be mindful of the impression they are giving of their club.

 

I'm finding the hardest part about being a City fan is that folks assume you're condescending when you mention their older ground, or turnover, or unable to attract the top players'. But they forget that City have been in that boat all too recently and we've had to pay hand over fist to get players we wanted - why? because the truth is we ARENT united or liverpool or chelski etc

 

If there's one thing I'd say to Everton it's this:

 

As much as people perceive City fans are 'full of themselves lately' (it's actually intoxication with actually seeing something we're enjoying), and financed by a Sugar Daddy, they are just people who never have a say in what actually happens with their club.

And as much as Everton fans often deny having any similarity to City, I really believe there's a lot in common.

If both sides can accept that the state of their clubs is NOTHING to do with them - it's thrust upon us, and ultimately we both want the same things - then the better that will be for relations.

 

Nobody's mocking Everton. Talk about Goodison Park is not a way of bragging about our part council owned stadium... it's just discussion.

 

One person did say something I found trouble some.. and that was that 'Goodison Park' was extra special and not just 'any old ground' like Maine Road.

Maine Road WAS just 'any old ground' but not to US. The reality is, Bolton fans went through ALL the same stuff Everton fans might have to. City fans went through it, Sunderland fans went through it etc... It's never about how 'great' Goodison is vs another ground, it's about what it means to the fans.

 

THAT is the same for all fans.

 

Sometimes - fans share a common purpose. Love of the game, and cheaper pies.

[marcopaulo]

yes. wife wants to spend 800 quid on a fecking wedding album, i should be allowed to do the same right?

 

why the fuck does she want to do that? she was there right?

[MikeO]

My whole wedding cost less that £800 !

[FairWooney]

valid points fanchester and I wasn't really trying to stir or anything by wondering why you were showing so much interest, it's just unusual for someone to come on the forum from another team for any reason apart from to chat about an upcoming game against their side or for a bit of micky take/banter post game.

 

I have no problem with you posting and your thoughts and views are most welcome.

 

 

I agree with you on the stadium thing. Our stadium is clearly special to all fans and as the copy and paster on another thread showed it has great heritage in English football for it's innovation however that doesn't mean that you can't move on. Of course we don't want some out the box stadium that looks like someone elses and we want something special but it is highly important to get a new stadium or somehow renovate/rebuild the current one. I agree that every fan who is used to their current stadium, especially when it has been around for a long long time and has a lot of history associated with it will feel a deep affiliation to it but sometimes you've just got to drop the sentimentality a little and be realistic.

 

I don't speak as someone from Liverpool or as someone who gets to every game and I know of course those view are similar to many of those that came up during the Kirkby debate. Obviously those that have been season ticket holders for years sat in their same seat or stand for years and seen the changes in the team etc around them will have very strong feelings for that current ground and their associated memories but times and we need to move on with them.

[Matt]

 

why the fuck does she want to do that? she was there right?

Yes, weve got all the photos from the photographer too. This is just him arranging them and printing them in a book.......

 

My whole wedding cost less that £800 !

Very jealous

 

 

Matt, you need to have a word mate.

I know, I have, we will see. Seemed to hit home when i did a price comparison to some other things!

[marcopaulo]

Yes, weve got all the photos from the photographer too. This is just him arranging them and printing them in a book.......

 

fuck me...

 

send um here i will do um for half the price!

[StevO]

yes. wife wants to spend 800 quid on a fecking wedding album, i should be allowed to do the same right?

 

only if the wedding album is a signed copy of Sgt Peppers! otherwise she go to go!

 

said before and i will again, the asenal share scheme is the best format ive seen.

 

http://www.arsenalfanshare.com/

Edited September 27, 2011 by StevO

[FanchesterCity]

valid points fanchester and I wasn't really trying to stir or anything by wondering why you were showing so much interest, it's just unusual for someone to come on the forum from another team for any reason apart from to chat about an upcoming game against their side or for a bit of micky take/banter post game.

 

I have no problem with you posting and your thoughts and views are most welcome.

 

 

I agree with you on the stadium thing. Our stadium is clearly special to all fans and as the copy and paster on another thread showed it has great heritage in English football for it's innovation however that doesn't mean that you can't move on. Of course we don't want some out the box stadium that looks like someone elses and we want something special but it is highly important to get a new stadium or somehow renovate/rebuild the current one. I agree that every fan who is used to their current stadium, especially when it has been around for a long long time and has a lot of history associated with it will feel a deep affiliation to it but sometimes you've just got to drop the sentimentality a little and be realistic.

 

I don't speak as someone from Liverpool or as someone who gets to every game and I know of course those view are similar to many of those that came up during the Kirkby debate. Obviously those that have been season ticket holders for years sat in their same seat or stand for years and seen the changes in the team etc around them will have very strong feelings for that current ground and their associated memories but times and we need to move on with them.

 

 

Would be great for Everton (imo) IF they could have a stadium that was modern, but very different too - some way they could try and retain a bit of Goodison Park spirit. Unfortunately, the way the game's going - it's all about the money and new stadiums are little more than concrete affairs, tarted up to look smart. But they don't cost must to maintain like old grounds.

 

In all honesty, I don't think I'd want to go back to Maine Rd now. We lost a lot of atmosphere in the move, and we said goodbye to what was (in all reality) a mess of a ground. Our mess - but a mess. We'd patched it up, expanded it, wasted money on it and more.

 

I'm older now, I want to take my son to see some of the world's best players - not necessarily in our team!... Sometimes you just have to point out to him "son... I know it hurts, but that rooney goal was class" or "see this Goodison Park son?... this is what City used to be like". In another 30 years it will all be gone (imo)

 

I really like the quality of football seen in the Premier League now and that's happened because of the money.... BUT... I see disaster ahead - either collapse of many great clubs, or we'll end up like the Americans - and more or less a 'stage show'.

 

Partly why I'm enjoying the Everton board, cos below the surface, City and Everton are just two examples of how clubs are affected by the money (or lack of) - You haven't got any, and we're spending what we haven't got. Neither are particularly good moves!

 

One the one hand - you could do with a bit more money to bring about success (not a lot, just enough to compete for the odd player or two), and City need to keep winning or else we're in trouble with no CL money etc.

 

i.e. Both clubs are relying on some luck in order to actually be viable.

 

I suspect most City fans would rather say they'd rather have our problems than yours (and Everton fans would say the same for them!).

 

Most of us are working class fans, kicked a football around in the streets in a dodgy pair of hand me down trainers as kids and latched onto a local team cos we liked the colours, or a certain player, or tended to favour the underdog in the town (Everton, City)

 

Everton have been stable, City have been a roller coaster - through no fault of our (the fans) own - we're just pawns in a game like you. Chairmen come and go, some with money, some with promises, some with Thai brides ;-) Very few deliver on what they said they would.

 

Hate to mention Fergie, but in his recent interview he talked about the future of clubs - and about how the kids are the future (obvious, but true).

 

Everton's rich heritage is something to be proud of, and in a perfect world, you'd be handing over an historic stadium to the kids.

But - it might actually be like your granny's old house being left to you. To HER it was her world, she was born in it... but to you, the grandkid inheriting it... it's and old house, you don't want it, you want something new - so you flog it.

 

Harsh, but probably the reality of the situation in the cold light of day.

 

What Everton have done in their many years can't be taken away. But clinging on to Goodison (imo), or having folks hinder your move (council?) might actually prevent an amazing future.

 

Tonight - I get to watch City play Bayern... we'll probably get drubbed, but I'll have had the chance to see it. If that means I was 'bought' with City's money... so be it... I was bought, I was weak, I caved in...

We all caved in.

 

I really believe Everton fans would too if you got lucky with a sugar daddy. If one comes along and says "50K stadium, top players, European nights (again)" - it's hard to turn down (not that you get a choice anyway)

 

and I'd BET your attendance figures would be UP and now down.

 

 

What do you reckon?