Guest Nikica Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) I've seen this on other sites. The idea is to state views you hold on football which are not popular. Another reason for the thread is for people to freely say what they genuinely believe, regardless of how eyebrow-raising, without being attacked for it because many disagree. I will start us off to get going, feel free to discuss: Cristiano Ronaldo, while a great player and one of the very best players in the world today, is highly overrated in comparison to the all-time greats. By this I mean many people consider him top 10 or 5 of all time, whereas I think he's nowhere near that level - in fact I wouldn't have him top twenty. When you look at guys like Maradona, Pele, Messi, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zico, Platini, Zidane and Garrincha, they all had far more to their game than he does in terms of footballing intelligence, ability to dictate games and the ability to drag their team back into games when they were being outplayed. Ronaldo, on the other hand, is a fantastic goalscorer, but it takes far, far more than that to be one of the greatest of all time (otherwise Josef Bican and Gerd Muller would be up there with Pele, and they're not). He's more reliant on his team-mates than all of the above are or were. People who boast about his goal stats overlook the poor defending in the current era, as well as the imbalance in La Liga and Europe generally (see the overreaction to his performance last night against Schale, despite the fact that Schalke ar a good but not great team and have been pumped by lots of elite teams). His effect on games diminishes as the opposition get better. He's the best player I have ever seen at scoring the fourth or fifth goals in a 5-0 win, or scoring a goal and being anonymous for the other 89 mins. I also think him being a 'complete player' is an utter myth, as most of his qualities come under the banner of one thing - athleticism (height, power, pace, jump height). He's good with both feet and great in the air, but he's not a great passer of the ball, his dribbling has declined since his Man U days, and he's also not the best in terms of vision. The skills he's not as good in are far more important than being able to head a ball. He's also the most overrated free-kick taker I have ever seen, with the exception of Roberto Carlos. His strike rate is appalling. And don't get me started on how many stupid shots he takes outside the box when his team-mates are free. He's the poster boy for the modern football fan - the FIFA generation who look at football in a superficial manner e,g, "OMG he scored so of course he played well". Too many people listen to muppets like Souness gushing over him on Sky. He was mince in every big game last year (Barca, Atletico Copa Del Rey final, the Dortmund games) with the exception of the second leg vs Sweden, yet he ends up winning the Golden Ball (which has always been a pointless award anyway, and a glorified popularity contest). Such a travesty when guys like Lahm and Ribery were consistently brilliant, regardless of opponent. They were playing in a better team yes, but Ronaldo is part of the most expensively assembled team in history, so there's no excuse. He essentially won that award for racking up goals against the lesser teams and his performance vs Sweden. I could elaborate much more on the myth of this guy, but I need a rest as I'm very tired. There's some food for thought anyway. He's a fantastic player, but he's not an all-time great. No chance. I hope I haven't offended anyone here, but I'm sick of hearing about the guy. Edited February 27, 2014 by Nikica tukmpzvvky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 To be honest I think most people would agree with you. Definitely top 3 or 5 in the world right now, but all time he's nowhere near a Maradonna for example, as you rightly said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) To be honest I think most people would agree with you. Definitely top 3 or 5 in the world right now, but all time he's nowhere near a Maradonna for example, as you rightly said You thinkthey would? Perhaps I have simply been overly exposed to his mental fanboys, but I've seen plenty say he and Messi will be the best two of all time, Utter bollox. I love this phrase as well, seen it said a lot: "He'd be the best player in any other era, but he's unlucky to be in the same time as Messi". This essentially implies that Messi and he are the two greatest of all time. Ronaldo wouldn't be better than Pele in the 60s, Cruyff in the 70s, Platini and Maradona in the 80s, or Zidane and the original Ronaldo in the 90s and 2000s. So that's another statement I consider nonsense, and I don't know who first said it or why it has been repeated constantly. "Definitely top 3 or 5" He is, but people actually get angry if you say he's any less than second. I personally think Iniesta and Xavi are more talented than he is, and have done far more when it counts. Xavi has declined but Iniesta is still better than Ronaldo. However, they don't score goals, so stats obsessives don't rate them. I don't know how anyone could look at players like Michael Laudrup and Iniesta - their touch, their intelligence, vision, creativity, ability to dictate play - and conclude that Ronaldo is a better footballer than them. Is it just because he scores goals? Ronaldo certainly isn't a purist's footballer, that's for sure. Edited February 27, 2014 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Well I guess teenagers would probably put him top 5 all time, but what do they know? Haha. It's so hard to judge different eras, he's such an athletic specimen, worked so hard too people forget that, he was a skinny kid and worked his arse off to get where he is. Considering his goal stats and the fact he's doing it in the champions league and for his country too, he would probably get top 15 or 20 all time for me, but like I said impossible to judge. For example I've never seen Puskas play, there will be loads of other players I can't accurately judge who might be better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Well I guess teenagers would probably put him top 5 all time, but what do they know? Haha. It's so hard to judge different eras, he's such an athletic specimen, worked so hard too people forget that, he was a skinny kid and worked his arse off to get where he is. Considering his goal stats and the fact he's doing it in the champions league and for his country too, he would probably get top 15 or 20 all time for me, but like I said impossible to judge. For example I've never seen Puskas play, there will be loads of other players I can't accurately judge who might be better Fair enough. I can handle top 15 or 20 of all time, I'd have him 30-20. He is an athletic specimen, no doubting he might be the best ever in that sense. However, that has little to do with his pure footballing abilities. The fact that Messi and Iniesta don't look like bodybuilders but are still so good is actually a good indiciation that they are far better actual footballers than he is. He worked his backside to get where he is, that is true and I respect that. But it doesn't make him one of the best of all time. Also, the fact he's had to work so hard implies he is less gifted than many players in history. Imagine how much better Ronaldinho could have been of he had Ronaldo's professionalism? He was already the best player in the world without it. Worth pointing out as well that, while Ronaldo works hard, it looks like he does absolutely nothing in training to improve his creativity and passing, as his playmaking skills have not improved. The thing is that he doesn't show up for Portugal against the best teams. He was one of their worst players versus Spain in WC 2010 and Euro 2012, and Germany in Euro 2008. Like I say, I am not denying he's a great player. But there's a lot of myths surrounding him because of this desire for everything in the present to be the best ever (same goes for Messi here), and he's nowhere near as gifted or intelligent (on the park) as many of the names I have mentioned. I've seen full games of lots of the greats and it's apparent to me that they were simply more talented, had a wider range of ability, and were tactically better. Ronaldo is the modern football fan's player - his fanboys seem to swoon over his athleticism and playboy lifestyle Edited February 27, 2014 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think we pretty much agree 90%. Having said all that, I would have a spontaneous orgasm if he turned up at Finch Farm this coming pre-season after a master coup by Roberto haha Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gethinO Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Out of interest then, who do you regard as the best ever? I think it's Messi as I haven't seen many of the other greats play due to my age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Out of interest then, who do you regard as the best ever? I think it's Messi as I haven't seen many of the other greats play due to my age. I would say Maradona. But like you I can only pick from players I've seen in my lifetime really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus jones Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I would say Maradona. But like you I can only pick from players I've seen in my lifetime really Yep I would go for him too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Growing up, I always heard Pele, so I'll go with him to make things interesting. Ronaldinho was the first player I saw where I was absolutely dumbfounded by his skills and technique on the ball. Personally, he's the all-time best to me, even though he had a short peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Maradona best player I've seen in my life time. Gazza could have the closest thing that the English game got close to offering. Edited February 27, 2014 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Out of interest then, who do you regard as the best ever? I think it's Messi as I haven't seen many of the other greats play due to my age. Maradona. I don't know how anyone who ever saw him play can think Messi is as good as him, never mind better. Maradona was an alien and it's an insult to him for anyone to say that someone like C Ronaldo is better. It's just complete bollocks. Edited February 27, 2014 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Controversial? OK... Ratboy over the park has really impressed me this season, for everything other than his goals. Considering how much of a cheating, whining, whingeing little prick that he's been for the last couple of seasons, he's sorted most of his problems out and has actually concentrated more on his football and helping his team mates a lot more, which in turn has revitalised that team. Hate him with a passion but respect him for just concentrating on the game on the field. Sibdane, Matt and Romey 1878 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Gerard is a jack of all trades, shite at all of them. Without referees and motd he'd be in prison. Cake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cake Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 A couple of seasons ago a top psychologist was asked to study Messi as to why he's as good as he is and, in a nutshell, it was concluded that he works things out so quickly and so far in advance that if he had chosen an academic career he would be a brilliant mathematician. In the same context, and although not a mathematician, that would mean Maradonna is Stephen Hawking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Go with the Gerrard shout. Never really rated him, had a few stand out games like all players but nothing spectacular for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Lampard. Always had to be a spare midfielder, complimented by 2 who can do all the donkey work. Long range shots, penalties and getting in and around the penalty area has made him a "Chelsea legend". Overrated. Ant1979 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Controversial? OK... Ratboy over the park has really impressed me this season, for everything other than his goals. Considering how much of a cheating, whining, whingeing little prick that he's been for the last couple of seasons, he's sorted most of his problems out and has actually concentrated more on his football and helping his team mates a lot more, which in turn has revitalised that team. Hate him with a passion but respect him for just concentrating on the game on the field. Hes reduced it, but its not gone. Ive even recognized him as boarderline world-class this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Premier League highlights (Match of the Day) shouldn't be on BBC, BBC should concentrate more effort into airing international games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 BBC should change their pundits, hows that for controversial? Lineker, Shearer, Lawrensen, Savage can all get lost, can't stand them. Biased, blinkered and quite sickeneing little old boys network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Nikica I was surprised you missed out Andy Carroll from your top ten. Seriously, thought George Best might get a mention, My personal number 1 (I saw him play) was Di Stefano. Ant1979 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Best British player - John Charles. Would certainly go in my top 10 World best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenosetoffee Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I do know what you are trying to say but at the same time Messi and him are the best two players of my generation. I was watching the City and Barca game and Messi didn't look anything special and I think also that Messi is more reliant on his team mates than Ronaldo. Messi is a good passer, quick and is good with his feet but when you have Iniesta and Xaxi. (Arguably the two best passing players at the moment) picking out through balls, chipping it over defenders then you are bound to score. With Ronaldo whenever you see him play he is more going at it alone. Yes he does get the passes but in terms of passing style. The way Barca play, against City they didn't panic on the ball and was patient and it paid off but Messi was nothing special in that game at all. In my own opinion I think that Ronaldo is a better player than Ronaldo. I have never seen Messi score a 40 yard goal multiple times and manage to get his national team through against Sweden mainly by himself. Messi is a brilliant player don't get me wrong but being at Barcelona flatters him a lot. Ronaldo is a brilliant player also but he doesn't work in a team as well as Messi does. Always tries to go at it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Would he have been Welsh had he been a terrible player John? It's like that long-running Andy Murray joke, he was Scottish until he won something. bluenosetoffee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Best British player - John Charles. Would certainly go in my top 10 World best ever. Best British player (ever) covers a lot of ground, but went straight away with Jim Greaves. Arguably the greatest center forward the UK has seen the last 60 years. Players such as Owen, Rush, Lineker, Richards, Hunt, Lee, McCoist etc were all fine strikers, but Greaves was the total package. Would easily command a price of some 80 million in today's exaggerated market I don't like 'controversial opinion' threads too much as it invariably involves a certain level of argument but only to add, most relevant areas worthy of inclusion - # Salary cap for ALL players (no taking home a six figure sum you greedy bastards, or more at fault, the damn clubs who pay them) # Fixing of draws / votes, in soccer tournaments and competitions (how did Qatar and Russia get to host a World Cup again..) - I.E. Just pick and choose whatever damn thing you want and expect people to sit in quiet acceptance. # No goal celebration music or half time "entertainment" (It's a professional game out there, not a fucking circus) # Take highlights away from the BBC / ITV (or indeed games) and put them on another station, where the viewer is free to watch. Or if they can't do that, at least find some presenters with a touch of charisma and vigor, not a collection of the most boring mundane, 'devoid of any feeling' individuals they can put together. It's because of all those issues that I no longer view highlights programs # Hungary in 1954 were the greatest, and i mean greatest - side that never got to be World Champions. # Soccer was not invented by the english - its earliest beginnings originated in China # Danny Dyer is a cunt and should be exempt from all documentaries and other game related involvements. Maybe room for continued debate but time won't permit it, but some fair minded observations there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) # Soccer was not invented by the english - its earliest beginnings originated in China Association Football was invented in England. Several sports are derivative of others, many countries had variations of ball-based games. China played a game where a net was strung up 30 feet off the ground between 2 poles, and you had to try and get the ball into the net. By that description you could say they also invented basketball but allowed the use of feet? It's commonly agreed worldwide (apart from a relatively recent Blatter comment, and a few US bloggers subsequently jumping on the bandwagon), that Association Football was invented in England. Edited February 28, 2014 by Ant1979 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus jones Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 A couple of seasons ago a top psychologist was asked to study Messi as to why he's as good as he is and, in a nutshell, it was concluded that he works things out so quickly and so far in advance that if he had chosen an academic career he would be a brilliant mathematician. In the same context, and although not a mathematician, that would mean Maradonna is Stephen Hawking. Ian Holloway has an engineering degree, don't make him Pep Guardiola though!! Know of any other intelligent footballers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Know of any other intelligent footballers? Roberto! Degree in physiotherapy and a post graduate qualification in business or something like that. David Unsworth was pretty intelligent too wasn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 You want controversy? My oldest son has supported Liverpool for quite a while, so I have watched them play over the last couple of season. The work in progress is beginning to reach fruition, and their quality of play right now is excellent. I read that, years ago, when Liverpool and Everton played against each other in an FA Cup final, the fans of both teams gave them a standing ovation after the game. It's OK for there to be rivalries, because they add an edge to the game. Having said that, I'd prefer to see the two Liverpool teams dominate the league than the two Mancs teams or two London teams. Personally, I'm not one with any kind of animosity against Liverpool. The 3-3 draw earlier this year was a credit to both teams. Both, understandably given their manages, play an attractive style of football. Long may it continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Ban him immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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