Rooney World Class Argument

[Guest blueboy122]

Ever since Joey Barton decided to air his views on Wayne Rooney and how he thinks the player isn't world class it has caused a lot of debate on the sky sports and BBC sport pages.

 

I was wondering what people's views were on him being world class.

 

In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that he is world class he has played at the top for over 10 years his honours list is excellent he has won various trophies etc. I can't believe that anyone would think Rooney isn't a world class player. He has single handily dragged Man United through seasons this one included.

 

Suarez now gets all the credit and plaudits from the premier league players as he should as well because he is outstanding but Suarez has had two great seasons at this level and won nothing (maybe he will win it this year). Rooney has played 10 years at the top won everything practically and now people questioning as to whether he is actually world class because Joey Barton has piped up with his opinion.

 

Rooney to me is the complete player and is World Class and should go down as one of the greats in English Football.

 

Obviously all opinion but I couldn't believe that people don't think he is world class...

 

What are your views?

[pete0]

He had the raw talent to be WC, but hasn't tried hard enough to develop it.

[Guest blueboy122]

He had the raw talent to be WC, but hasn't tried hard enough to develop it.

 

In what way hasn't he devolved it out of interest?

[Lowensda]

He had the raw talent to be WC, but hasn't tried hard enough to develop it.

Must say, i agree.

 

Not consistant enought to be WC...he had one season where i thought it was his time but hes not kickes on from that.

 

Rooney would be WC if he tried more often.

[Ian C]

Not even it's as simple as "he doesn't try". I don't think you can watch him play and think that he's not putting enough effort in.

 

I think world class players need to be surrounded by great players and a great manager, and given the space and responsibility to thrive. Rooney has none of that at United.

 

I think if he were at a Bayern, Madrid or a Barca we'd feel very differently.

 

It's funny, Rooney always struck me as someone motivated purely by football (by achievement, not necessarily loyalty), not money. I think his upbringing, or maybe the people around him, have led him to compromise his football for money - and I don't think he's happy with that.

[Guest blueboy122]

Not even it's as simple as "he doesn't try". I don't think you can watch him play and think that he's not putting enough effort in.

 

I think world class players need to be surrounded by great players and a great manager, and given the space and responsibility to thrive. Rooney has none of that at United.

 

I think if he were at a Bayern, Madrid or a Barca we'd feel very differently.

 

It's funny, Rooney always struck me as someone motivated purely by football (by achievement, not necessarily loyalty), not money. I think his upbringing, or maybe the people around him, have led him to compromise his football for money - and I don't think he's happy with that.

Agree with you Ian I don't think that people really think of him as a WC player because he doesn't play for a side that is winning the league at the moment.

 

Last season there is no way people would have questioned if he was WC player because he had won the league.

 

Suppose it's just fickle fans ANC pundits.

 

He is a WC player no doubt about that.

[MC11]

Wayne Rooney not World Class???? Hahaha. One of the top 10 best players of the last 10 years. No questions. Look at his trophy haul. His goal record, his assist record. Not even a question.

[Newty82]

World Class is a tag touted around too much.

 

I dunno about Rooney. Great energy, enthusiasm and team ethic. Shows glimpses of pure brilliance. But is he on that level enough? Not sure.

 

He's never performed for England in a Euro or World cup.

 

Never been named in a UEFA team of the year. Although he got in FIFPro in 2011. You look through these teams and the same names crop up again and again....they are World Class.

 

Im just not sure that he has reached the heights that he could have. For whatever reason.

[Romey 1878]

He's a great player and someone I wish we had but I don't think he's world class. Which is sad because I think he should have gone on to be just that.

[MC11]

World Class is a tag touted around too much.

I dunno about Rooney. Great energy, enthusiasm and team ethic. Shows glimpses of pure brilliance. But is he on that level enough? Not sure.

He's never performed for England in a Euro or World cup.

Never been named in a UEFA team of the year. Although he got in FIFPro in 2011. You look through these teams and the same names crop up again and again....they are World Class.

Im just not sure that he has reached the heights that he could have. For whatever reason.

He was England's best player in Euro 2004! Have England ever performed in his career at a Euro or World Cup? Messi has never done it at world level either!

 

What is world class then? Messi and Ronaldo fall under the "Best players in the world" and there is nobody else who stands near them, maybe Suarez. There is then the level below like Ribery, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteger, Pirlo etc etc . Rooney belongs in the list even if it is based on past seasons. Right now no he isn't but a a point in his career he definitely was!

Edited April 5, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Newty82]

Oh sorry, I thought the OP was asking for peoples views on this? So I gave my own very balanced view?!

 

But yeah, he did well in Euro 2004, scoring in 2 games. 10 years ago.

 

Maybe we expect too much from him? But then if he is world class, so we should.

 

At the end of the day, not agreeing 100% with the world class tag doesnt mean he isnt rated highly.

 

He is still one of our stand out players, just think that if he lived his life properly, he could have been more.

[Newty82]

....incidentaly, those 4 goals at Euro 2004 are his only tornament goals.

 

Overall, he's been disappointing in tournaments gor England. For whatever reason, again maybe we expect too much?

[Guest blueboy122]

Wayne Rooney not World Class???? Hahaha. One of the top 10 best players of the last 10 years. No questions. Look at his trophy haul. His goal record, his assist record. Not even a question.

Exactly my thinking about him to be honest.

 

He isn't in that best player in the world category with Ronaldo and Messi but he certainly is world class.

[Newty82]

Exactly my thinking about him to be honest.

 

He isn't in that best player in the world category with Ronaldo and Messi but he certainly is world class.

Its a good point about his trophies, goals, assists etc.

 

So as a serious non antagonist question. Why do you guys who definately believe him to be World Class (Im a bit on the fence tbh), think he has never had a mention in UEFA's team of the year? Baring in mind that he has been scoring, assisting and winning trophies (the argument for him being world class) during most of his career?

 

As an end note....Joey Barton is a total prick. But he can make the odd valid point.

[Guest Nikica]

He's a very good player, but he's the typical overrated British player. He is most certainly not world-class and I highly doubt he's rated anywhere near as highly on the continent as he is in the UK.

 

Also, he's not very good as a number 10. He doesn't have the same skillset someone like Mata has for it. People see him running around like a bull and assume it makes him a good playmaker - it doesn't.

 

I don't see how you can call him 'complete', when there are glaring weaknesses in his game. As for your denigrating comments on Suarez, it should be clear that he's more talented than Rooney. In the last two seasons and for Uruguay he's played at a level Rooney never has in his career. He's capable of doing things that Rooney can only dream about. Don't let your hatred of Liverpool blind you to that fact.

 

"In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that he is world class he has played at the top for over 10 years his honours list is excellent he has won various trophies etc. I can't believe that anyone would think Rooney isn't a world class player. He has single handily dragged Man United through seasons this one included. "

 

The 'trophies' argument has always been a poor one. He doesn't drag United through anything either - he's been poor for parts of this season too, and great at other parts. You're doing with Rooney what you (rightly) call out others for doing with Gerrard - going into hyperbole mode and claiming he drags them places single-handedly. I'm the opposite of you in that I can't believe anyone would think he IS a world-class player.

 

"I think if he were at a Bayern, Madrid or a Barca we'd feel very differently."

 

He wouldn't get a game for any of those teams - there's a reason why no team on the continent has ever tabled a bid for him.

 

"Agree with you Ian I don't think that people really think of him as a WC player because he doesn't play for a side that is winning the league at the moment.

Last season there is no way people would have questioned if he was WC player because he had won the league.

Suppose it's just fickle fans ANC pundits."

 

This is all strawman nonsense - sorry but it is. You're selling people very short by assuming that they rate players according to whether they win the league or not. It's a very weak argument. I have never rated him as world-class, regardless of what he has or hasn't won.

 

"Wayne Rooney not World Class???? Hahaha. One of the top 10 best players of the last 10 years."

 

See, this is the sort of nonsense that leads people to believe he's vastly overrated. He is nowhere near one of the best ten players of the last ten years, that's an absolutely mental comment (assuming you mean worldwide and not just in Britain).

 

"Look at his trophy haul. His goal record, his assist record."

 

That's a shite way to rate players. Trophies and stats are so misleading. The Brazilian Ronaldo never won the CL, so does that mean he wasn't that great?

 

In short, he's a very good player who is a bit away from being world-class. There are numerous better strikers than him.

 

I'm tempted to say Rooney is overrated by some on here because he is one of your own. Someone on here once said that Rooney has the best first touch he has ever seen - then abused me when I replied saying that was a nonsense comment as his touch is pretty erratic. That's the sort of exaggeration that seems to exist around Rooney.

 

 

To give an example of what I mean, I think David Silva (for example) is far more talented than Rooney. But people who judge by goal stats and 'trophies' would never agree. But when you watch both players play Silva's touch, technique, intelligence and general orchestrating of the game is well above what Rooney produces. He doesn't score goals though so stats obsessives won't rate him. It's annoying.

 

"Messi and Ronaldo fall under the "Best players in the world" and there is nobody else who stands near them"

 

Iniesta is better than Ronaldo, imo. Ronaldo is another one who benefits from the obsession with goalscorers. In terms of pure football intelligence and ability (as well as big-game performance) though, I'd take Iniesta over him every day of the week. If I wanted someone to score five against Portsmouth or Osasuna I'd have Ronaldo. Ronaldo's most recent vanishing act was the clasico a few weeks back - a big game Iniesta excelled in (again). In saying that Ronaldo is still a great player. But I hate when people act like Xavi, Iniesta etc are nowhere near him - they only think that because of their bias towards goalscorers.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Nikica

[Bailey]

He's a very good player, but he's the typical overrated British player. He is most certainly not world-class and I highly doubt he's rated anywhere near as highly on the continent as he is in the UK.

 

Also, he's not very good as a number 10. He doesn't have the same skillset someone like Mata has for it. People see him running around like a bull and assume it makes him a good playmaker - it doesn't.

 

I don't see how you can call him 'complete', when there are glaring weaknesses in his game. As for your denigrating comments on Suarez, it should be clear that he's more talented than Rooney. In the last two seasons and for Uruguay he's played at a level Rooney never has in his career. He's capable of doing things that Rooney can only dream about. Don't let your hatred of Liverpool blind you to that fact.

 

"In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that he is world class he has played at the top for over 10 years his honours list is excellent he has won various trophies etc. I can't believe that anyone would think Rooney isn't a world class player. He has single handily dragged Man United through seasons this one included. "

 

The 'trophies' argument has always been a poor one. He doesn't drag United through anything either - he's been poor for parts of this season too, and great at other parts. You're doing with Rooney what you (rightly) call out others for doing with Gerrard - going into hyperbole mode and claiming he drags them places single-handedly. I'm the opposite of you in that I can't believe anyone would think he IS a world-class player.

 

"I think if he were at a Bayern, Madrid or a Barca we'd feel very differently."

 

He wouldn't get a game for any of those teams - there's a reason why no team on the continent has ever tabled a bid for him.

 

"Agree with you Ian I don't think that people really think of him as a WC player because he doesn't play for a side that is winning the league at the moment.

Last season there is no way people would have questioned if he was WC player because he had won the league.

 

Suppose it's just fickle fans ANC pundits."

 

This is all strawman nonsense - sorry but it is. You're selling people very short by assuming that they rate players according to whether they win the league or not. It's a very weak argument. I have never rated him as world-class, regardless of what he has or hasn't won.

 

"Wayne Rooney not World Class???? Hahaha. One of the top 10 best players of the last 10 years."

 

See, this is the sort of nonsense that leads people to believe he's vastly overrated. He is nowhere near one of the best ten players of the last ten years, that's an absolutely mental comment (assuming you mean worldwide and not just in Britain).

 

"Look at his trophy haul. His goal record, his assist record."

 

That's a shite way to rate players. Trophies and stats are so misleading.

 

In short, he's a very good player who is a bit away from being world-class. There are numerous better strikers than him.

 

I'm tempted to say Rooney is overrated by some on here because he is one of your own.

 

 

To give an example of what I mean, I think David Silva (for example) is far more talented than Rooney. But people who judge by goal stats and 'trophies' would never agree. But when you watch both players play Silva's touch, technique, intelligence and general orchestrating of the game is well above what Rooney produces. He doesn't score goals though so stats obsessives won't rate him. It's annoying.

 

"Messi and Ronaldo fall under the "Best players in the world" and there is nobody else who stands near them"

 

Iniesta is better than Ronaldo, imo. Ronaldo is another one who benefits from the obsession with goalscorers. In terms of pure football intelligence and ability (as well as big-game performance) though, I'd take Iniesta over him every day of the week. If I wanted someone to score five against Portsmouth or Osasuna I'd have Ronaldo.

 

Spot on Nikica. He is a very good player and he is an out and out striker, none of this number 10/midfield bollocks. In his best season he was used as a true striker looking to get into the box and not to the edge of it.

[Guest Nikica]

 

Spot on Nikica. He is a very good player and he is an out and out striker, none of this number 10/midfield bollocks. In his best season he was used as a true striker looking to get into the box and not to the edge of it.

 

Yeah, he's definitely a number 9. I reckon only one of he or Van Persie should start for them. They have two great tens in Kagawa and Mata but neither can play that role because Moyes rarely has the stones to drop one of RVP or Rooney.

 

Also blueboy - I like you as a poster mate. I realise my tone may have been a bit sanctimonious in my original reply, but I only took that attitude because you seemed to be being a bit snobby here yourself. No hard feelings mate.

[MC11]

He's a very good player, but he's the typical overrated British player. He is most certainly not world-class and I highly doubt he's rated anywhere near as highly on the continent as he is in the UK.

 

Also, he's not very good as a number 10. He doesn't have the same skillset someone like Mata has for it. People see him running around like a bull and assume it makes him a good playmaker - it doesn't.

 

I don't see how you can call him 'complete', when there are glaring weaknesses in his game. As for your denigrating comments on Suarez, it should be clear that he's more talented than Rooney. In the last two seasons and for Uruguay he's played at a level Rooney never has in his career. He's capable of doing things that Rooney can only dream about. Don't let your hatred of Liverpool blind you to that fact.

 

"In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that he is world class he has played at the top for over 10 years his honours list is excellent he has won various trophies etc. I can't believe that anyone would think Rooney isn't a world class player. He has single handily dragged Man United through seasons this one included. "

 

The 'trophies' argument has always been a poor one. He doesn't drag United through anything either - he's been poor for parts of this season too, and great at other parts. You're doing with Rooney what you (rightly) call out others for doing with Gerrard - going into hyperbole mode and claiming he drags them places single-handedly. I'm the opposite of you in that I can't believe anyone would think he IS a world-class player.

 

"I think if he were at a Bayern, Madrid or a Barca we'd feel very differently."

 

He wouldn't get a game for any of those teams - there's a reason why no team on the continent has ever tabled a bid for him.

 

"Agree with you Ian I don't think that people really think of him as a WC player because he doesn't play for a side that is winning the league at the moment.

Last season there is no way people would have questioned if he was WC player because he had won the league.Suppose it's just fickle fans ANC pundits."

 

This is all strawman nonsense - sorry but it is. You're selling people very short by assuming that they rate players according to whether they win the league or not. It's a very weak argument. I have never rated him as world-class, regardless of what he has or hasn't won.

 

"Wayne Rooney not World Class???? Hahaha. One of the top 10 best players of the last 10 years."

 

See, this is the sort of nonsense that leads people to believe he's vastly overrated. He is nowhere near one of the best ten players of the last ten years, that's an absolutely mental comment (assuming you mean worldwide and not just in Britain).

 

"Look at his trophy haul. His goal record, his assist record."

 

That's a shite way to rate players. Trophies and stats are so misleading. The Brazilian Ronaldo never won the CL, so does that mean he wasn't that great?

 

In short, he's a very good player who is a bit away from being world-class. There are numerous better strikers than him.

 

I'm tempted to say Rooney is overrated by some on here because he is one of your own. Someone on here once said that Rooney has the best first touch he has ever seen - then abused me when I replied saying that was a nonsense comment as his touch is pretty erratic. That's the sort of exaggeration that seems to exist around Rooney.

 

 

To give an example of what I mean, I think David Silva (for example) is far more talented than Rooney. But people who judge by goal stats and 'trophies' would never agree. But when you watch both players play Silva's touch, technique, intelligence and general orchestrating of the game is well above what Rooney produces. He doesn't score goals though so stats obsessives won't rate him. It's annoying.

 

"Messi and Ronaldo fall under the "Best players in the world" and there is nobody else who stands near them"

 

Iniesta is better than Ronaldo, imo. Ronaldo is another one who benefits from the obsession with goalscorers. In terms of pure football intelligence and ability (as well as big-game performance) though, I'd take Iniesta over him every day of the week. If I wanted someone to score five against Portsmouth or Osasuna I'd have Ronaldo. Ronaldo's most recent vanishing act was the clasico a few weeks back - a big game Iniesta excelled in (again). In saying that Ronaldo is still a great player. But I hate when people act like Xavi, Iniesta etc are nowhere near him - they only think that because of their bias towards goalscorers.

Iniesta better than Ronaldo? Absolute drivel.

 

Rooney at the peak of his career would have walked in any side in Europe and the world. He wasn't overhyped. His stats speak for themselves, his trophy cabinet does. Stop rambling complete nonsense.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Newty82]

Oh Nik, what a post. What a post.

 

Nailed it bang on in a number of areas.

 

We do tend to need to hail players as world class in this country, we just have to have that player.

[Newty82]

Iniesta better than Ronaldo? Absolute drivel.

 

Rooney at the peak of his career would have walked in any side in Europe and the world. He wasn't overhyped. His stats speak for themselves, his trophy cabinet does. Stop rambling complete nonsense.

Is your argument that Rooney once was world class but isnt now? It reads that way.

 

Im viewing it as world class right now...thats what joey barton was saying, so I assume thats what the topic is???

[Guest Nikica]

Iniesta better than Ronaldo? Absolute drivel.

 

Rooney at the peak of his career would have walked in any side in Europe and the world. He wasn't overhyped. His stats speak for themselves, his trophy cabinet does.

 

Why is it drivel? Because Iniesta doesn't score goals?

 

Playmakers are the true geniuses in football, not goalscorers. You only rate Ronaldo more highly because you can't see past goalscoring and stats (as your comments in this thread indicate). Thinking Iniesta is better than Ronaldo (or vice-versa) is reasonable based on what someone's footballing preferences are. It's not 'drivel' because Iniesta is a genius and comparable to anyone in the modern game. You'd think I had said Wes Hoolahan was better than Ronaldo

 

You're sounding like a modern internet era fan who is incapable of analysing football beyond who gets on the scoresheet. And even if you disagree with my views, what can't be disagreed with is that Iniesta is a major big-game player, much more so than Ronaldo. Everyone knows that.

 

Rooney would have walked into any side in Europe? Keep kidding yourself It's no wonder England delude themselves about their chances at tournaments when their players are overrated in this manner.

 

I've already told you - stats are very misleading in football and only tell part of the story. As for trophy cabinets, I bet you thought Matt Le Tissier was shite. He never won much. Also, if trophies are such a barometer for you, surely you should rate Iniesta up with Ronaldo as he's won far more? You are contradicting yourself

[MC11]

Pep Guardiola on Rooney:

 

"He is one of the greatest players in the world as there are very few players with his qualities. He’s a player I admire very much."

[Newty82]

Also cotto, if your using the trophy cabinet as an argument...then how many world cups and european cups has iniesta won vs ronaldo?

 

Personally, I dont see it as that relevant. But you do, so the argument/view/opinion has to be consistent.

[Guest Nikica]

Cotto, I will sum it up this way for you...

 

spend less time dwelling on the quantitative aspects, and more on the qualitative. Iniesta can only be appreciated by valuing the latter.

[Guest Nikica]

Pep Guardiola on Rooney:

 

"He is one of the greatest players in the world as there are very few players with his qualities. He’s a player I admire very much."

 

Oh come on mate. You know as well as I do that managers etc are asked about players and always reply diplomatically. People in football pay lip service to each other all the time. Do you honestly think Xavi genuinely believes he's an inferior player to Scholes, for example (as he's said on a few occasions)? Also, as much as I like him, Guardiola is not some perfect human being who is correct about everything. If he rated Rooney that much he'd have tried to sign him rather than Zlatan, Villa and Sanchez, wouldn't he? Actions speak louder than words.

 

"Also cotto, if your using the trophy cabinet as an argument...then how many world cups and european cups has iniesta won vs ronaldo?"

 

I made that very point above lol. It's is a good example of how he's contradicting himself.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Nikica

[Newty82]

Contradicting seems to be a strong point.

[MC11]

Why is it drivel? Because Iniesta doesn't score goals?

 

Playmakers are the true geniuses in football, not goalscorers. You only rate Ronaldo more highly because you can't see past goalscoring and stats (as your comments in this thread indicate). Thinking Iniesta is better than Ronaldo (or vice-versa) is reasonable based on what someone's footballing preferences are. It's not 'drivel' because Iniesta is a genius and comparable to anyone in the modern game. You'd think I had said Wes Hoolahan was better than Ronaldo

 

You're sounding like a modern internet era fan who is incapable of analysing football beyond who gets on the scoresheet. And even if you disagree with my views, what can't be disagreed with is that Iniesta is a major big-game player, much more so than Ronaldo. Everyone knows that.

 

Rooney would have walked into any side in Europe? Keep kidding yourself It's no wonder England delude themselves about their chances at tournaments when their players are overrated in this manner.

 

I've already told you - stats are very misleading in football and only tell part of the story. As for trophy cabinets, I bet you thought Matt Le Tissier was shite. He never won much. Also, if trophies are such a barometer for you, surely you should rate Iniesta up with Ronaldo as he's won far more? You are contradicting yourself

You're chatting complete garbage over Iniesta and Ronaldo. Not a big game player? Talking about his disappearance in El Classico, the guy has 12 goals in 19 el classico's. You make your mind up on that.

 

The best players in football are those who can win games. That's a combination of goals & assist. Ronaldo assistS and scores and makes his "own" goals. That's why he's won the ballon d'or twice and Iniesta haS only ever been runner up.

 

Trophies plus, goals plus assists combined is what a mentioned and Rooneys is a very good record on all fronts.

 

You come across as though you think you know everything about football and you're always right. That's just the tone of your posts here.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[MC11]

Also cotto, if your using the trophy cabinet as an argument...then how many world cups and european cups has iniesta won vs ronaldo?

 

Personally, I dont see it as that relevant. But you do, so the argument/view/opinion has to be consistent.

If you read, you'll see that I mention his stats and trophy haul. Massive difference from mentioning the latter alone.

[Newty82]

He comes across as if he knows everything about football?!!! And thinks he's always right?!!! Coming from you....oh my oh my oh my!!! Read your own posts!!!

 

Anyway, back to Rooney...thats your view. Fair play. Maybe you should have done a poll? They are quite decisive on peoples views.

[Newty82]

...not that its about ronny and iniesta, but iniesta is a world class player. As is Ronaldo. And Messi. And Xavi. And the list is quite decent....but you cant mention Rooney with this lot.

 

Like I said earlier, I think he could have been if he spent less time shaggin old women, drinkin and smokin.