Rooney World Class Argument

[MC11]

Ferguson? Lol

[pete0]

Ferguson? Lol

Obviously never watched him at his best then.

[MC11]

Duncan Ferguson? Better footballer than Wayne Rooney. Come on mate!

[Newty82]

Yeah, not sure about the Ferguson call.

 

He was much better with his feet than credited for...but he doesnt belong in that bracket...as much as I loved him like every other Toffee!

[pete0]

I'm not saying he is wc, just that Ferguson on his day was better than Rooney.

[Newty82]

I'm not saying he is wc, just that Ferguson on his day was better than Rooney.

Phwoar! Big call. Not sure about that one!!!

[MikeO]

I'm not saying he is wc, just that Ferguson on his day was better than Rooney.

 

I must've blinked that day.

[pete0]

Watch Ferguson against United, no striker dominated them as much. Constantly two men marking him and still the ref had to save their arses.

[Dalziel Kane]

Ferguson - like Rooney - never really fulfilled his true potential - at not least with the scots national side. If not for that self imposed exile from the squad he could really of been a national great like Henderson, Baxter, McLeish etc.

 

This is only going over old ground but wouldn't classify Ferguson as world class either. Like Rooney, had one or two moments of outstanding technique and provided some memorable moments, but too few and far between to be worthy of any inclusion

 

Both players that could frighten opposition defenses for sure but not consistent enough many would argue. Both disappointments for their respective national squads on the whole.

[Bailey]

 

Yeah, he's definitely a number 9. I reckon only one of he or Van Persie should start for them. They have two great tens in Kagawa and Mata but neither can play that role because Moyes rarely has the stones to drop one of RVP or Rooney.

 

 

Yeh I agree completely.

 

I do find it a little sad thinking back to Rooney when he first came on the scene as he had that enthusiasm and arrogance to actually beat a man and take him on. He used to twist defenders inside out but I dont see any of that anymore. He is the prime example of a player who has been "over-coached" and I do think that if he still had that ruthlessness that he had as a kid then you would be talking about him in the world class bracket but not a chance now. I cant even remember the last time I saw him take a defender on.

 

I found a video of some of his Everton goals. Not the greatest out there Im sure, but you will see what I mean.

 

[Newty82]

Not a bad video.

 

God, I forgot how good he was at that age. Shame he just wasnt allowed to follow a natural path.

[Dalziel Kane]

Strange to an extent, we had Rooney on board for the whole of the 2003 - 04 season, did badly and finished near the end of the league, sell our star asset in the close season, and then achieve a champions league place the following year (without him)

 

Say what you like, but to some he's been often disappointing for Manchester United in the subsequent years and didn't flower into the all-star player that many may of envisaged. Due a testimonial later this year maybe.

[Hafnia]

There is no way we wouldnt have been a better team with him. Its just that his money enabled us to get some other quality players.

[marcopaulo]

he was ridiculous at that age

[johnh]

Rooney is a very good player but he doesn't qualify as 'world class'. He has never produced the goods on the world stage, particularly when playing for England. He seldom has the same influence on a game as, say Messi or Ronaldo. Our 'world class' players are few and far between. John Charles, George Best, Bobby Moore and maybe a couple more.

[Kant]

As a personal opinion, for me there are five greatest players (widely recognised): Maradona, Pelé, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Zidane. Soon to be joined by Messi. Definition: Once in a decade.

 

Then, world class. Definition: The best players of the decade, you can argue with your mates if he would be in the starting XI or not, but you would not be regarded as a fool.

Example (last 15 years): Casillas, Buffon, Neuer, Schmeichel, Sergio Ramos, Thiago Silva, Nesta, Puyol, Ferdinand, Lahm, Roberto Carlos, Maicon, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Zidane, Fabregas, Vieira, Scholes, Roy Keane, Yaya Touré, Ribery, Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Rooney, Giggs, Totti, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Henry, Raúl, Aguero, Van Persie, Suarez, etc.

 

All those players are known worldwide by most football fans, they perform at the highest level every year and they do well for both club and country. Even though most of the above mentioned players do not play in the Premier League, you know all of them, and if your country or club has to face them in a tie you'd be worried about them. Some of them are now old (past it) or retired, but my idea was to explain the concept, not to make a list of the current world class players.

 

For example, let's pick one guy of the list: Sergio Ramos. He has never played in England but you all know who he is, he's won lots of trophies (almost everything: World Cup, Eurocups, La Liga, etc.), he's the club captain and he's been doing that for the last 10 years, for both Spain and Real Madrid. Another one: Henry. Same situation. Another one: Lahm.

 

I know that players who fail to deliver for their country are usually frustrating for their own fans, but as long as they are in the starting XI that is what I consider enough...since there are only 4/5 major tournaments in the 10 year bracket and it largely depends on the rest of the squad. Maybe Messi or Ronaldo do not win a single trophy with their country, but nobody really cares except the national fans.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Kant

[Dalziel Kane]

Rooney in short, is a more benign example of a George Best, a Paul Gascoigne, for example.

 

So much potential, prophesized by many as being an eventual best ever, only for the sum total to be an overall disappointment.

 

He's had nearly a decade at Manchester United now (!) and in years to come, when (their) supporters undertake a shortlist of club greats and influential players, I don't think Rooney will even get a mention. Sure you'll have players such as the aforementioned Best, Law, Charlton or Edwards, not to leave out Cantona or possibly Bryan Robson also, but Rooney may well miss out.

 

Just possibly, that decision could well prove justified.

[Guest blueboy122]

Another can of worms...

 

Is Giggs world class?

[Cornish Steve]

I still can't get over 300K a week. 300K EVERY WEEK - rain or shine, game or no game, played or not played, for over five years. Is it really worth paying him over 80 mil over the term of his contract, at 10x what many of our players are paid? That's like asking whether the talented guy on your floor at work should be paid ten times as much as you, guaranteed for five years. If the answer is 'yes', then maybe he really is world-class. But I have a feeling that most would answer 'no'.

[Hafnia]

Rooney earns 50p a second. In the time that it's taken me to write this post he's earned more than he did in a week when he scored the goal against arsenal. He was a better player at that time too.

[Guest Nikica]

As a personal opinion, for me there are five greatest players (widely recognised): Maradona, Pelé, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Zidane. Soon to be joined by Messi. Definition: Once in a decade.

 

Then, world class. Definition: The best players of the decade, you can argue with your mates if he would be in the starting XI or not, but you would not be regarded as a fool.

Example (last 15 years): Casillas, Buffon, Neuer, Schmeichel, Sergio Ramos, Thiago Silva, Nesta, Puyol, Ferdinand, Lahm, Roberto Carlos, Maicon, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Zidane, Fabregas, Vieira, Scholes, Roy Keane, Yaya Touré, Ribery, Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Rooney, Giggs, Totti, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Henry, Raúl, Aguero, Van Persie, Suarez, etc.

 

All those players are known worldwide by most football fans, they perform at the highest level every year and they do well for both club and country. Even though most of the above mentioned players do not play in the Premier League, you know all of them, and if your country or club has to face them in a tie you'd be worried about them. Some of them are now old (past it) or retired, but my idea was to explain the concept, not to make a list of the current world class players.

 

For example, let's pick one guy of the list: Sergio Ramos. He has never played in England but you all know who he is, he's won lots of trophies (almost everything: World Cup, Eurocups, La Liga, etc.), he's the club captain and he's been doing that for the last 10 years, for both Spain and Real Madrid. Another one: Henry. Same situation. Another one: Lahm.

 

I know that players who fail to deliver for their country are usually frustrating for their own fans, but as long as they are in the starting XI that is what I consider enough...since there are only 4/5 major tournaments in the 10 year bracket and it largely depends on the rest of the squad. Maybe Messi or Ronaldo do not win a single trophy with their country, but nobody really cares except the national fans.

 

That's a fair and well thought out post mate. it's not my personal definition of world-class but you do put forward a compelling argument - nice work.

 

All I will say is that there's a fair bit of deviation amongst the players you list i.e. they're all top class players, but some are more talented in their position than others and that's the difference between top class and world class e.g. the likes of Ronaldo, Zidane, Rivaldo etc were all the best players of their generation, and probably a level above many of the others in the list. Xavi, Pirlo Iniesta are probably a level above Fabregas and Yaya, so does that makes the former players world-class and the latter top class? Or are the former all-time greats and the latter world-class? As you say it's all pretty pedantic because all of the top players are talented and a threat, regardless of their 'world-class' status.

 

However, your assertion that all of these players are a threat to other teams is a fair one.

 

"Drogba, RVN, RVP, Bergkamp, Fowler, Owen, Aguero, Tevez, Shearer, Ferdinand, Anelka, Ferguson, and Ronaldo."

 

Disagree with Owen and Ferguson, but agree with the rest so for that reason I gave you a green arrow.

 

"Yeh I agree completely.

I do find it a little sad thinking back to Rooney when he first came on the scene as he had that enthusiasm and arrogance to actually beat a man and take him on. He used to twist defenders inside out but I dont see any of that anymore. He is the prime example of a player who has been "over-coached" and I do think that if he still had that ruthlessness that he had as a kid then you would be talking about him in the world class bracket but not a chance now. I cant even remember the last time I saw him take a defender on.

I found a video of some of his Everton goals. Not the greatest out there Im sure, but you will see what I mean."

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I too noticed that his dribbling and X-Factor has seemed to decline over the years. In truth I think his lifestyle hasn't helped in this respect. I agree that when he burst onto the scene he looked brilliant, but how much of him not fulfilling his potential is down to over-coaching, how much is down to lifestyle, and how much is just a young kid who was built up too early and never realised what he could have been? I'd say a combination of all three.

However, we shouldn't forget that despite not really living up to what he may have been (although I don't rate the young Rooney quite as highly as you), he's still had a great career; scoring lots of goals for Man United and winning titles and a CL along the way. He just hasn't reached the individual level many people expected of him.

Youtube compilations are always misleading, but I remember him when he was young and he did look like he'd become better than he has (although, as I say, I don't quite rate the young Rooney as highly as you do). It was a good video regardless.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Nikica

[Bailey]

Yeh maybe I was overstating it because he was still very raw and not as polished as the likes of Messi or Zidane when they burst onto the scene but at that age he just seemed to have that ability to make you go wow. I really dont see any of that now and not for a long time. He has the odd brilliant strike here and there but he doesnt have any of that dynamism about his play. He seems happier trying to lob the keeper from 25 yards than he does trying to skin a defender.

[Dalziel Kane]

Zidane has been mentioned here and there a little, but while a near world-class player, couldn't quite classify this player in question as of 'legendary status'. Michel Platini was a bigger name for french soccer and I think possessed an all-round better ability and technique but that's an argument for maybe age perspective. Yes Zidane is (or was) a highly decorated player that could provide some outstanding moments of quality and became over time, a recognized name, but don't believe he did enough to warrant anything deserving of legendary status. Doesn't deserve to be on the same plateau as names like Pele, Maradona, Yashin, Puskas for example.

[MC11]

Zidane has been mentioned here and there a little, but while a near world-class player, couldn't quite classify this player in question as of 'legendary status'. Michel Platini was a bigger name for french soccer and I think possessed an all-round better ability and technique but that's an argument for maybe age perspective. Yes Zidane is (or was) a highly decorated player that could provide some outstanding moments of quality and became over time, a recognized name, but don't believe he did enough to warrant anything deserving of legendary status. Doesn't deserve to be on the same plateau as names like Pele, Maradona, Yashin, Puskas for example.

Mate Zidane is the best EVER IMO. So I totally disagree with you.

[MC11]

Zidane has been mentioned here and there a little, but while a near world-class player, couldn't quite classify this player in question as of 'legendary status'. Michel Platini was a bigger name for french soccer and I think possessed an all-round better ability and technique but that's an argument for maybe age perspective. Yes Zidane is (or was) a highly decorated player that could provide some outstanding moments of quality and became over time, a recognized name, but don't believe he did enough to warrant anything deserving of legendary status. Doesn't deserve to be on the same plateau as names like Pele, Maradona, Yashin, Puskas for example.

Apart from scoring an absolute Worldy in the CL final and scoring two very important World Cup FINAL goals