Kopite Thread

[Zoo]

Messi is one footed, Ronaldo and Higuian are more clinical in Spain. Messi even admitted/acknowledged Xavi and Iniesta are better than himself. How can you claim he's the best player in the world when he was a ghost against Chelsea. Many strikers I'd have before him: Ronaldo, Villa, Higuian, Pato, Cavani, Podolski, Ibrahimovic, Llorente

 

Not to get personal but that post was beyond laughable. Messi is better with his left foot than his right which is no doubt a fact but he's certainly not one footed. I've seen him do plenty of good stuff with his right foot and plenty of good stuff with his head, his left foot is where he comes into his own but because it's so good it dosen't mean he's 'one-footed'

 

Whilst the likes of Higuain, Pato etc... are good players they are nowhere near the standards of Messi, you just have to look at his stats this season to see that.

[Guest Nikica]

It werent that he didnt play well, it was his game is totally useless against an English style defence.

 

And yet he's pissed all over the likes of Arsenal and Man United.

 

He wasn't useless either: only profligate finishing stopped Barca at SB. In all honesty, it's a miracle they didn't score at least two goals that night. The sitters they missed were unreal.

 

Ronaldo disappeared after his two goals against Bayern. Seems like you're harder on Messi than other players.

[Matt]

Messi is the greatest player to have graced this planet. If hes saying others are better, then the brains are in his feet rather than his head. Ive seen him so many times now, live and on TV..... Hes the greatest without doubt.

[Guest Nikica]

Messi is also targeted for poor performances. For example if Leighton Baines had a bad game for England then it would be okay, because he's just a decent footballer doing a job for his country, it's totally different for Leo because he is the worlds best player and anything other than spectacular means that he's terrible for some reason.

 

People seem to want Leo to fail IMO and will look at anything to try and prove that he is not the player the media make him out to be.

 

And about the Premiership I totally agree with you. Whilst I believe the Premiership is the best league in the world I believe that just because you haven't played it in dosen't make you 'over-rated', some people are too ignorant to see that there is class in other parts of the world, not just England.

 

Agree with all of that. You could argue Messi, as the world's best player, should be treated more harshly, but some people expect him to win every game by himself. Football just doesn't work like that. He has carried Barca this season compared to previous years when they were a much better team unit.

[Guest Nikica]

Messi is the greatest player to have graced this planet. If hes saying others are better, then the brains are in his feet rather than his head. Ive seen him so many times now, live and on TV..... Hes the greatest without doubt.

 

He's just being humble. Pete is totally sound, but there's no way he'd genuinely rather have the likes of Higuain, Pato and Podolski at Everton before Messi. Not a chance.

[Matt]

He's just being humble. Pete is totally sound, but there's no way he'd genuinely rather have the likes of Higuain, Pato and Podolski at Everton before Messi. Not a chance.

was exaggerating to catch up with his escalating argument.... Of course hes humble, the man is a god

[Guest Nikica]

was exaggerating to catch up with his escalating argument.... Of course hes humble, the man is a god

 

Unsure how it has escalated tbh. It seems to have come about because I said I think Rooney is a very good player but a bit overrated. A cardinal sin for some English fans, it appears.

 

It's alright to say Messi is overrated, but not Rooney, oh no (looking at you 'blueboy').

[pete0]

 

 

He's just being humble. Pete is totally sound, but there's no way he'd genuinely rather have the likes of Higuain, Pato and Podolski at Everton before Messi. Not a chance.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Messi would struggle to get a game for us, and would be lucky to get any where near a team like Stoke. He's a luxury, and dont dismiss he's not as clinical with just your words and belief, because its a fact. Ronaldo scores more with less shots, Messi has the best midfield in the world giving him chance after chance, put him in Stokes team and he'd be a 10 goal a season striker (probs all from the spot). Any of the other strikers I named could score goals anywhere.

 

Edit: Totally agree about Rooney

Edited May 1, 2012 by pete0

[Guest Nikica]

That's exactly what I was getting at. Messi would struggle to get a game for us, and would be lucky to get any where near a team like Stoke. He's a luxury, and dont dismiss he's not as clinical with just your words and belief, because its a fact. Ronaldo scores more with less shots, Messi has the best midfield in the world giving him chance after chance, put him in Stokes team and he'd be a 10 goal a season striker (probs all from the spot). Any of the other strikers I named could score goals anywhere.

 

Edit: Totally agree about Rooney

 

Now I know you are wumming

 

Ronaldo scores more with less shots? Ronaldo takes more shots than any other player in La Liga! They have the same amount of goals in the league anyway, as far as I know.

 

Messi is a luxury player who would struggle to get a game for Everton and would get nowhere near Stoke? He relies on service? Xavi and Iniesta have been out for large parts of the season and he still has loads of assists! Look at Barcelona play, he creates most things himself. If anyone is reliant on service, it is Ronaldo. Most of his goals are typical goalscorers goals. People talk about his FK record - he hadn't even scored one for 40 games until a month or so back.

 

This has to be a joke. Also, every top player would look worse in Stoke's team, that's not how you judge world-class footballers!

 

This is absolutely mental.

[Zoo]

That's exactly what I was getting at. Messi would struggle to get a game for us, and would be lucky to get any where near a team like Stoke.

 

Did you really just say that Lionel Messi would struggle to get a game at Everton?

 

Lionel Messi may have one of the best teams giving him service but put him at another club and he would do just as well. The argument that he coulden't do well in a team such as say, Wigan Athletic is invalid because nobody can win games on their own week in and week out. He'd do it a few times but not all season, nobody can.

[Guest Nikica]

Did you really just say that Lionel Messi would struggle to get a game at Everton?

 

Lionel Messi may have one of the best teams giving him service but put him at another club and he would do just as well. The argument that he coulden't do well in a team such as say, Wigan Athletic is invalid because nobody can win games on their own week in and week out. He'd do it a few times but not all season, nobody can.

 

It's a mental argument. Even Maradona had help at Napoli. Of course Messio wouldn't look as good at Stoke - the same as every other world-class player would look worse at Stoke.

 

His ability to create something himself would mean he'd look a bit better than most other top players, though.

[pete0]

 

 

Did you really just say that Lionel Messi would struggle to get a game at Everton?

 

Lionel Messi may have one of the best teams giving him service but put him at another club and he would do just as well. The argument that he coulden't do well in a team such as say, Wigan Athletic is invalid because nobody can win games on their own week in and week out. He'd do it a few times but not all season, nobody can.

 

 

It's a mental argument. Even Maradona had help at Napoli. Of course Messio wouldn't look as good at Stoke - the same as every other world-class player would look worse at Stoke.

 

His ability to create something himself would mean he'd look a bit better than most other top players, though.

Put Drogba or RVP in a Wigan/Stoke and I'd expect them to get at least double what Messi could.

[Matt]

Unsure how it has escalated tbh. It seems to have come about because I said I think Rooney is a very good player but a bit overrated. A cardinal sin for some English fans, it appears.

 

It's alright to say Messi is overrated, but not Rooney, oh no (looking at you 'blueboy').

i completely agree with you on Rooney, in this summation. Disagree with Messi being overrated. No chance. Despite this, he is still 1 player and its still 11 players that make a team. Messi in Tranmere wouldnt be anything, just someone who shines in an average team. Messi is the best because he is the best of the best whilst playing with the best of the best....

[Guest Nikica]

Messi has had over 100 assists for Barcelona in his career. Doesn't sound like someone who relies heavily on service from others.

 

His role as a false nine is what creates space for the inverted wingers. He drops deep and it creates the space for the liks of Villa and Pedro to move into. The defender doesn't know whether to follow Messi out to stop him at the source and risk being skinned, or stay back, cover the space and allow Messi a clear run at him. In the 2011 CL Final Messi's role worked to absolute perfection.

 

If he was just a goalscorer who relies on assists from the likes of Xavi and Iniesta, Guardiola would never have used him as a false nine.

 

Listen, I don't even rate Messi as the best player ever, it's still maradona for me, but some of the comments in here are extremely harsh on him.

[Guest Nikica]

Put Drogba or RVP in a Wigan/Stoke and I'd expect them to get at least double what Messi could.

 

RVP? He had done nothing in his entire career until the last eighteen months. He's a top-class player but he couldn't lace Messi's boots.

 

As for whether he could do more than Messi at Stoke - considering Messi is better at creating something out of nothing than RVP is, and a much better all-round player, I disagree there as well.

 

Drogba was one of my favourite players in his prime so I won't get into that. His powerful style suits Stoke.

[Guest Nikica]

i completely agree with you on Rooney, in this summation. Disagree with Messi being overrated. No chance. Despite this, he is still 1 player and its still 11 players that make a team. Messi in Tranmere wouldnt be anything, just someone who shines in an average team. Messi is the best because he is the best of the best whilst playing with the best of the best....

 

That's exactly my point. World-class players should be judged in the world-class environements they occupy. The example people always use is Maradona at Napoli - but Napoli had other top players like Careca et al. You'd think Maradona was playing with pub players. Besides, Maradona was a one-off imo who could accomoplish things no other player could.

 

Blueboy was taking offence to my claim that Rooney isn't the total footballer the English media claim he is. It's true. Rooney is a very good player, but there are things missing from his game. You'd think he was Cruyff the way some go on. Even on Redcafe, the most biased site on the internet, people admit there's things missing from his game.

 

I should know better than to criticise Rooney on an Everton forum, but I tend to look past tribal bias.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Nikica

[Matt]

That's exactly my point. World-class players should be judged in the world-class environements they occupy. The example people always use is Maradona at Napoli - but Napoli had other top players like Careca et al. You'd think Maradona was playing with pub players. Besides, Maradona was a one-off imo who could accomoplish things no other player could.

 

Blueboy was taking offence to my claim that Rooney isn't the total footballer the English media claim he is. It's true. Rooney is a very good player, but there are things missing from his game. You'd think he was Cruyff the way some go on. Even on Redcafe, the most biased site on the internet, people admit there's things missing from his game.

 

I should know better than to criticise Rooney on an Everton forum, but I tend to look past tribal bias.

i'll agree with most of that except the following:

 

1/ Maradona was a dirty cheat and as such cannot be considered 'great'

2/ Rooney will get many mixed opinions on Everton forums. Some see him as a saviour, some see him as a rat. Its a thread in itself...

[Guest Nikica]

i'll agree with most of that except the following:

 

1/ Maradona was a dirty cheat and as such cannot be considered 'great'

2/ Rooney will get many mixed opinions on Everton forums. Some see him as a saviour, some see him as a rat. Its a thread in itself...

 

Well, I disagree with 1, but there's no point getting into that. Not denying he was a cheat, but more the claim that being a cheater invalidates someone's claims to greatness.

[marcopaulo]

That's exactly what I was getting at. Messi would struggle to get a game for us, and would be lucky to get any where near a team like Stoke. He's a luxury, and dont dismiss he's not as clinical with just your words and belief, because its a fact. Ronaldo scores more with less shots, Messi has the best midfield in the world giving him chance after chance, put him in Stokes team and he'd be a 10 goal a season striker (probs all from the spot). Any of the other strikers I named could score goals anywhere.

 

Edit: Totally agree about Rooney

 

 

[Guest Nikica]

Just seen Pete edited his post to agree about Rooney, fair play. I don't think calling him a very good player but overrated is particularly insulting to him, or unreasonable.

 

The stuff about Messi though, I just can't agree at all. He's not a footballing god, no player is a footballing god, because every player can be stopped. But the stuff about not getting a game at Everton etc...wow.

 

In my short time here, I have found Pete a top guy. But his opinions on Messi really are hyperbolic, imo. Surely it's wumming?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Nikica

[Matt]

Well, I disagree with 1, but there's no point getting into that. Not denying he was a cheat, but more the claim that being a cheater invalidates someone's claims to greatness.

not saying it invalidates, more massively counts against. No player can be a great and a cheat in my eyes.

[SimonButtle]

People are so used to Messi scoring in every game(because he is the best player in the world) that as soon as he has even the slightest of quiet games all of a sudden he's shite, and can't do this, and he isn't that anymore. well its bullshit, some of the most famous players/managers in the game have come out and said Messi is the best player in the world. ive seen him twice, and he is the best player i have ever seen, and i have watched him countless times on tv in La Liga and the Champions League. The one footed thing, well he can do more with that one foot than most players can do with either feet, so that has no bearing on it. He is the REAL deal imo.

[Guest Nikica]

not saying it invalidates, more massively counts against. No player can be a great and a cheat in my eyes.

 

Hmm.

 

I've seen Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Villa, Gomez...practically every top player cheat.

 

I suppose what you are referring to is degrees, and magnitude of the occasion. Maradona cheated a fair bit, and against England on the biggest stage of them all. On the other hand, he took a lot of punishment from defenders back then and stayed on his feet a lot more than many contemporary players. I guess you could argue that's more a reflection of the proliferation of diving as time has passed (diving has always been present in the game, but seems more widespread now).

 

I can sympathise with your view. I just think Maradona is the most talented player I have ever seen.

[Guest Nikica]

People are so used to Messi scoring in every game(because he is the best player in the world) that as soon as he has even the slightest of quiet games all of a sudden he's shite, and can't do this, and he isn't that anymore. well its bullshit, some of the most famous players/managers in the game have come out and said Messi is the best player in the world. ive seen him twice, and he is the best player i have ever seen, and i have watched him countless times on tv in La Liga and the Champions League. The one footed thing, well he can do more with that one foot than most players can do with either feet, so that has no bearing on it. He is the REAL deal imo.

 

[Matt]

Hmm.

 

I've seen Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Villa, Gomez...practically every top player cheat.

 

I suppose what you are referring to is degrees, and magnitude of the occasion. Maradona cheated a fair bit, and against England on the biggest stage of them all. On the other hand, he took a lot of punishment from defenders back then and stayed on his feet a lot more than many contemporary players. I guess you could argue that's more a reflection of the proliferation of diving as time has passed (diving has always been present in the game, but seems more widespread now).

 

I can sympathise with your view. I just think Maradona is the most talented player I have ever seen.

fair enough, will have to agree to disagree. Im a bit too young to remember Maradona at his best, only seen the highlights of his career which was enough. Messi is better in my opinion but maybe thats only because ive seen more of him.

[Matt]

People are so used to Messi scoring in every game(because he is the best player in the world) that as soon as he has even the slightest of quiet games all of a sudden he's shite, and can't do this, and he isn't that anymore. well its bullshit, some of the most famous players/managers in the game have come out and said Messi is the best player in the world. ive seen him twice, and he is the best player i have ever seen, and i have watched him countless times on tv in La Liga and the Champions League. The one footed thing, well he can do more with that one foot than most players can do with either feet, so that has no bearing on it. He is the REAL deal imo.

spot on Si Edited May 1, 2012 by Matt

[Guest Nikica]

fair enough, will have to agree to disagree. Im a bit too young to remember Maradona at his best, only seen the highlights of his career which was enough. Messi is better in my opinion but maybe thats only because ive seen more of him.

 

Yeah, I was still young when Maradona was in his prime, but I caught some of him live and have seen games and footage of his. Messi is my favourite current player, but I am still not sure if I will ever think he is better than Maradona was. That guy was like an alien. Messi winning the World Cup in the backyard of his rivals would do a lot for his legacy. Club football is the best level now, but the World Cup retains much romance.

 

Agree to disagree. Perhaps in ten to fifteen years when we have seen Messi's entie career I will agree with you.

[Guest blueboy122]

 

 

The manner of my post? Read your own reply in your previous post. Practically crying because I said Rooney has flaws in his game, which is a reasonable opinion. I even tried to be nice at the end of my post and appeal to your better nature, but it was lost on you.

 

I mention Robben and Aguero because they were part of the list of players I said had the x Factor Rooney doesn't.

 

It's become clear to me that you're a Rooney fanboy. Rooney has plenty missing from his game. For a start, his first touch isn't the best. He also cannot dribble to create space for himself or create a chance out of nothing for himself. His passing can be very erratic as well. He's a very good player, I don't dispute that, but he's not the footballing god you are trying to claim he is. Quite ironic that you're trying to claim Rooney is this complete player, but when I do the same of Messi (who is far more deserving of the title) you attack me.

 

The rest of your post is absolute shi te. Messi only does it against the Spanish teams? So he has to move to England to prove he's as good as everyone says? What a load of shite. Have you ever even seen him play against top teams in the CL? I'm embarrassed for you having read that.

 

It's generally accepted that anyone who rates Ronaldo as better than Messi has an agenda, and the vast majority of the world rates Messi higher, so I feel no need to defend that position. Ronaldo has only accomplished a lot more than Messi in your mind. Who has won WPOTY more often, who's won more CLs? Who's broken more records? It's pointless saying that 'Messi has only done it in one league' because inferior players to him have come to the PL from Spain and looked like world beaters. We can hypothesise from that that Messi would run riot in the PL.It's pointless to use Messi's loyalty to Barca against him. Again, your logic is flawed as fuck, because if we were rating players by how many leagues they have been successful in (an argument I have only ever heard Ronaldo fans use to elevate him above Messi), then Pele and George Best would be inferior to Cristiano, as they only really ever played and performed in one top league (Brazilian and English). Don't claim the Brazilian league was a pub league either, because in the 60s it was extremely strong.

 

You didn't say Messi 'had a bad game', you said he wasn't all that good. Forget everything he has done in his career, and judge him off a couple of games against the Chavs? Aye, that makes sense.

 

It doesn't really matter how highly Messi and Ronaldo rate Rooney, as players are always complimentary towards each other. I doubt either rates Rooney anywhere near themselves, privately, because he's simply not on their level ffs.

 

My comment about watching Spanish football was a suggestion that you seem to be a PL fanboy who doesn't watch other leagues. Instead, you've tried to make it the focus of your reply because you know you cannot respond to my points.

 

You think Rooney is some sort of complete player with no flaws to his game, and that Messi is overrated. That tells me everything I need to know about you. No doubt you were saying United would hammer Athletic as well.

 

This is a good football site. It's not a place for people to descend into PL bumming rubbish like 'the EPL is da bestest league eva! Could Messi handle it at Stoke on a windy night?'.

 

I tried being nice at the end of my post, but that didn't work..

 

Your doing my head in mate. You need to get out more. Once again I have no idea what you are talking about. Alls you keep saying is that I bum the premier league?.....

 

By the sound of every one of your post your so anti ENGLISH premier league, so why dont you go and watch braveheart it will make you feel better.

 

People who think that Ronaldo is better have agenda... You really are a sad sad boy, some people prefer Messi some people prefer Ronaldo. I prefer Ronaldo, there is no hidden agenda.

 

I would just like to see Messi test himself against better defences more often like Ronaldo has done. Its no surprise since Ronaldo has moved to spain he has scored alot more goals, its due to the teams been inferior to the premier league teams, well defence wise anyway.

 

Has anyone got any lube, my dick hurts from jacking off from the premier league 300 times a day.

[Guest blueboy122]

 

 

That's exactly my point. World-class players should be judged in the world-class environements they occupy. The example people always use is Maradona at Napoli - but Napoli had other top players like Careca et al. You'd think Maradona was playing with pub players. Besides, Maradona was a one-off imo who could accomoplish things no other player could.

 

Blueboy was taking offence to my claim that Rooney isn't the total footballer the English media claim he is. It's true. Rooney is a very good player, but there are things missing from his game. You'd think he was Cruyff the way some go on. Even on Redcafe, the most biased site on the internet, people admit there's things missing from his game.

 

I should know better than to criticise Rooney on an Everton forum, but I tend to look past tribal bias.

 

I seem to skim your posts and how have I taken an offence from you saying rooney isnt a complete footballer..I said you must be joking and listed my points as to why he is a complete footballer. Just do me a favour and get off your high horse.

[Guest blueboy122]

Pahh

 

Did I see someone suggest Rooney has no first touch?

 

He was born with one of the best touches I have ever seen, hence a 16 year old scoring a great goal against Arsenal with a great first touch of the ball to set himself up.