Scottish Independence

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry Steve, Im going to try and be as polite as I can and Im apologising in advance it I dont come across that way. Got a lot of time for you but a couple of things youve mentioned here really annoyed me, and I am not even close to being patriotic.

 

You don't need to apologize - before or after - for believing that I'm spouting crap. It happens often enough.

 

 

Personally, I think too much attention is given to history; its far too romanticised and clouds peoples vision of the future . Of course, it has to be preserved and taught so we can learn from our mistakes. But I am much more interested in the future. I don't say I'm English (unless people say "hey you're British", I feel the need to educate them), I say I'm me.

 

Let's draw a different analogy to make the point. The UK is now part of Europe, and many European laws are trumping British laws. What if the European parliament made clear that everyone in Britain must have names in the same style as Spanish - where the mother's name is used as well as the father's. The traditional English approach would become illegal. Or, more extreme, the two official languages of Europe moving forward will be French and German. From now on, all lessons in English schools must be given in only French and German. All government signs and documents must be in French or German. How would you feel?

 

Looking at the rise of the UKIP, I know exactly how most people feel. We're English. I'm proud to be English. How dare Europe come along and tell me what to do, what language I can speak, and what name I can be called. So why should the Celts not feel the same way? Time passes, yes, but these are big issues. We cling to our culture because we're proud of it.

 

 

Whilst I've said that too much attention is given to history, it would be foolish to say its not important. History is indeed important. For example, before England steam-rolled in and stopped the clans from fighting, murdering and imposing their will on others amongst themselves, the Celts were not united. But lets skip over the fact the Celtic nations were too busy fighting amongst themselves to actually defend themselves. Happened to the groups in England too, just to be fair, until united, stronger, entities (Vikings, Romans) came along and whooped the groups into shape.

 

The winners get to write history.

[johnh]

Matt

One of the problems of being able to say 'I'm a European' or 'I'm a citizen of the world' is that the bigger the social structure, the less democratic it is. Look at the EU and China. My personal opinion is that losing democracy is too big a price to pay for losing nationality.

[Newty82]

Again Steve, with the EU name analogy, you're going back thousands of years. Comparing 2 totally different era's. That wouldn't happen now.

 

Where I do agree is on EU decision making. We don't like it. So I can emphasise with the Scots on that. But that's a today argument, not one from so many years ago.

 

Put it all together and what it shows is that politics needs to change. Each nation should have a heavy say in its own nation. No doubt.

 

How it will change, I don't know. But the system is certainly dated.

 

And let's not forget, the Scots do enjoy privileges that us English don't.

[MikeO]

 

We should be looking forward to saying "I'm European" or "I'm a citizen of the world" than sticking to stupid national pride. We should be uniting, not splitting up.

 

This.

[Matt]

 

You don't need to apologize - before or after - for believing that I'm spouting crap. It happens often enough.

 

Let's draw a different analogy to make the point. The UK is now part of Europe, and many European laws are trumping British laws. What if the European parliament made clear that everyone in Britain must have names in the same style as Spanish - where the mother's name is used as well as the father's. The traditional English approach would become illegal. Or, more extreme, the two official languages of Europe moving forward will be French and German. From now on, all lessons in English schools must be given in only French and German. All government signs and documents must be in French or German. How would you feel?

 

Looking at the rise of the UKIP, I know exactly how most people feel. We're English. I'm proud to be English. How dare Europe come along and tell me what to do, what language I can speak, and what name I can be called. So why should the Celts not feel the same way? Time passes, yes, but these are big issues. We cling to our culture because we're proud of it.

 

The winners get to write history.

But what if I had to cut off my left foot because it became law. What ifs are pointless in this argument mate. But in your example, I could not care less. I am me, not my name, not my nationality. Since I speak French and German, I would have no problem Even if I didn't, I wouldn't care about it. I care about people and progress. But again, its a bad example to debate.

 

Going back a bit, there is no such thing as English in the times you are mentioning. It was either the French (not really but to keep things easy), Vikings or Romans depending on which grudge the Celts are talking about. The English are a bunch of mongrels who have only really existed in the last 1000 years. In that time they've unified a land, albeit in disgusting ways, to become one of the most successful powers the world has ever seen.

 

As for victory written by the victors... Didnt the Celts (if you go back to Gaul) come from France (before it was France, obviously). So what happens to the people the Gauls/Celts oppressed and replaced? Tough shit? The Celts displaced all of them a millennia before the "English" came about. You cant point fingers at a more succesful group of invaders when you were once that group and have since been trumped.

 

As for UKIP... I think this came about because people had no other option. Thats me being polite, part of me feels that people who voted were too stupid to know the difference between a party who "wants the best for their country" and a bunch of racists.

[Matt]

Matt

One of the problems of being able to say 'I'm a European' or 'I'm a citizen of the world' is that the bigger the social structure, the less democratic it is. Look at the EU and China. My personal opinion is that losing democracy is too big a price to pay for losing nationality.

Democratic John? I'd love to see that.

 

You know what. Fuck independence. We need a revolution.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Matt

[Cornish Steve]

As for UKIP... I think this came about because people had no other option. Thats me being polite, part of me feels that people who voted were too stupid to know the difference between a party who "wants the best for their country" and a bunch of racists.

 

I agree very much on this. The point is, though, that we rebel when some outside group - culturally, genetically, and linguistically very different from us - come in, act as though they are superior, and impose their norms on us. The Celts have put with this for centuries, and now the English are seeing it with Europe. There's little difference really. I agree that the right solution is to unify at one level while demonstrate respect and autonomy at another. The English have never seen it this way, though, so why believe them this time around?

[Matt]

 

I agree very much on this. The point is, though, that we rebel when some outside group - culturally, genetically, and linguistically very different from us - come in, act as though they are superior, and impose their norms on us. The Celts have put with this for centuries, and now the English are seeing it with Europe. There's little difference really. I agree that the right solution is to unify at one level while demonstrate respect and autonomy at another. The English have never seen it this way, though, so why believe them this time around?

Im English and I believe it, Mike has said he does and you do. Movements start with single steps mate

[johnh]

Matt

I would never vote for Nick Clegg but if he got in at the next election because he had most votes, then I would accept it. On the other hand Baroness Ashton had a senior role in the EU and she was never elected to anywhere in her whole life, not even in her own country. Democracy as we know it may not be perfect but its a site better than what happens in many parts of the world.

[Matt]

Matt

I would never vote for Nick Clegg but if he got in at the next election because he had most votes, then I would accept it. On the other hand Baroness Ashton had a senior role in the EU and she was never elected to anywhere in her whole life, not even in her own country. Democracy as we know it may not be perfect but its a site better than what happens in many parts of the world.

Not doubting its better than, say, cannibalism or facism. Doesn't make it acceptable by comparison. We are intelligent enough to come up with a better system.

[MikeO]

 

Looking at the rise of the UKIP, I know exactly how most people feel. We're English. I'm proud to be English. How dare Europe come along and tell me what to do, what language I can speak, and what name I can be called. So why should the Celts not feel the same way? Time passes, yes, but these are big issues. We cling to our culture because we're proud of it.

 

They don't .

 

The rise of UKIP appalls me.

[Cornish Steve]

 

They don't .

 

I was continuing the example I gave earlier about being forced to change names and language - which is what the English did to all the Celtic nations.

[MikeO]

 

I was continuing the example I gave earlier about being forced to change names and language - which is what the English did to all the Celtic nations.

 

Lots of "wrong" things have been perpetrated by all nations and races (with the Brits near the top of the list) over the course of history; difficult to judge the current UK/Europe/Scotland situation in the same terms I think.

[Newty82]

 

Lots of "wrong" things have been perpetrated by all nations and races (with the Brits near the top of the list) over the course of history; difficult to judge the current UK/Europe/Scotland situation in the same terms I think.

Definitely.

 

I just read up a bit of history on England. Jeez...between us all (English, Welsh, Scottish, French, Romans, Celts, Scandinavians) there was a constant flow of battles and invasions. From all nations/cultures. Really interesting read. What stands out though is that only the strongest survived. Maybe that's why the Celtic culture dwindled.

 

Anyway, 7 am. We'll find out.

[Bailey]

The news outlets are reporting as if it's a dead cert for 'No'. I really really hope that Scottish voters overcome all this bias and bribery and demeaning attitudes and vote 'Yes'. People just don't understand: Celts are different in so many ways: language, culture, genetics, attitudes, history, .... England has shown time and again that it will steamroller over these things and impose its way. Nothing has fundamentally changed, except sugar-coated promises that will count for nothing. Which to believe: a few weeks' worth of promises, or several hundred years of history?

 

Going back a bit but thought I would respond to this.

 

My Grandad is Scottish and all of his side of the family have his Celtic blood. My Grandad came from the poverty of Glasgow, via the British Navy to do really well in London. He has his quirks but he is no different to me or you. I dont know when the last time you visited Scotland was but, they have come a long way from Braveheart .

 

England hasnt steamrolled over Scotland, Wales or Ireland in recent times (certainly not in many peoples lives) and the point I think you are getting at (that Westminster has governed other nations from afar) could also be said for many counties let alone countries. What happens in London is far different from what happens in Merseyside or even Cornwall and there will always be local issues that wont get covered by the main govt. I do think each country should have more power to decide what happens within their own country but like Newty has said, with so many issues outstanding (currency, EU membership, oil revenues, border control etc etc), surely anyone voting yes is taking a huge gamble.

[Cornish Steve]

 

What happens in London is far different from what happens in Merseyside or even Cornwall and there will always be local issues that wont get covered by the main govt.

 

Absolutely right. Bristol, often viewed as the 'capital' of the southwest, for example, is closer to York than it is to Penzance.

 

The difference, though, is that the Celtic races are culturally and genetically very different. This is what the English just don't get. It's not really about distance; it's about difference.

[MikeO]

 

Absolutely right. Bristol, often viewed as the 'capital' of the southwest, for example, is closer to York than it is to Penzance.

 

The difference, though, is that the Celtic races are culturally and genetically very different. This is what the English just don't get. It's not really about distance; it's about difference.

 

People considering themselves "different" to other people has probably caused more war and violence over the years than anything else.

 

Personally think it's about time the world started looking for similarities rather than differences; what we need is an alien invasion, would put petty local differences into perspective, After all the whole planet is the tiniest microscopic insignificant speck of dust in universal terms .

[Matt]

 

The difference, though, is that the Celtic races are culturally and genetically very different. This is what the English just don't get. It's not really about distance; it's about difference.

No different than people are town to town, county to county. Got nothing to do if you're Celtic or English or whatever. People are different, culturally and genetically different from house to house. My daughter will be born to an Englishman (with Scottish, Irish, Welsh, French and apparently Danish) and American woman (with Italian, English, Irish, German blood), in Switzerland. So which grudge should she carry?

 

Put simply, she wont. She will look to the future.

 

 

People considering themselves "different" to other people has probably caused more war and violence over the years than anything else.

 

Personally think it's about time the world started looking for similarities rather than differences; what we need is an alien invasion, would put petty local differences into perspective, After all the whole planet is the tiniest microscopic insignificant speck of dust in universal terms .

Spot on.

 

At the end of the day, you bleed red (sorry lads). We are people. Stop putting labels everywhere and concentrate on people, not "races"....

Edited September 18, 2014 by Matt

[Newty82]

Been some good posts from all. Nice one.

[Cornish Steve]

No different than people are town to town, county to county. Got nothing to do if you're Celtic or English

 

It's very different. Take a gander...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9336923/Welsh-and-Cornish-are-the-purest-Britons-scientists-claim.html

[markjazzbassist]

isn't the reason england wants scotland is because they are the industrial powerhouse behind your economy? i hope they get independence.

 

also on the point of ireland, you english lads might not be big on them and think they are broke, but apple, microsoft and other tech giants are headquartered there due to tax breaks and such and it has become the new silicon valley. massive amounts of US companies have been migrating there, ireland is doing just fine, in fact i think they're doing great economically all this considered.

[Cornish Steve]

A little intimidation at the polls: "Only two arrests were reported by Police Scotland, including that of Marie Rimmer, 67, a former Labour leader of St Helens Council in Merseyside."

 

Must be a Shite supporter.

[Newty82]

isn't the reason england wants scotland is because they are the industrial powerhouse behind your economy? i hope they get independence.

 

also on the point of ireland, you english lads might not be big on them and think they are broke, but apple, microsoft and other tech giants are headquartered there due to tax breaks and such and it has become the new silicon valley. massive amounts of US companies have been migrating there, ireland is doing just fine, in fact i think they're doing great economically all this considered.

Scotland were a 'industrial powerhouse' during the industrial revolution. They still have strong industrial links. But it certainly isn't the powerhouse behind our economy. It's not so much about wanting, it's about how much we have achieved a lot since becoming the United Kingdom of Great Britain. But from the Scots points of view, there are to many unanswered questions.

 

Why do you think us English lads aren't big on the Irish? They are sound. Very nice welcoming country. The posts about them being in near bust etc isn't us being arse holes, it's a true fact. They needed a $113 Billion EU/IMF bail out in 2010. Of that bail out, Britain (who the Irish left to be better off) had to stump up around $15-18 Billion. They have handled it well though, but it's been tough. They still have high unemployment of around 11% (6% UK).

 

And the US companies 'pretending' to have their head office in another country is a blatant tax fiddle that only benefits the companies, it certainly isn't an indicator of Ireland doing just fine. If you are American, you should be pissed at this. You are basically missing out on a lot of money. It's why the major world economies are joining forces to stop these tax havens from happening.

[markjazzbassist]

Scotland were a 'industrial powerhouse' during the industrial revolution. They still have strong industrial links. But it certainly isn't the powerhouse behind our economy. It's not so much about wanting, it's about how much we have achieved a lot since becoming the United Kingdom of Great Britain. But from the Scots points of view, there are to many unanswered questions.

 

Why do you think us English lads aren't big on the Irish? They are sound. Very nice welcoming country. The posts about them being in near bust etc isn't us being arse holes, it's a true fact. They needed a $113 Billion EU/IMF bail out in 2010. Of that bail out, Britain (who the Irish left to be better off) had to stump up around $15-18 Billion. They have handled it well though, but it's been tough. They still have high unemployment of around 11% (6% UK).

 

And the US companies 'pretending' to have their head office in another country is a blatant tax fiddle that only benefits the companies, it certainly isn't an indicator of Ireland doing just fine. If you are American, you should be pissed at this. You are basically missing out on a lot of money. It's why the major world economies are joining forces to stop these tax havens from happening.

Serious question to your first paragraph, do you think the English benefit more from scots in the uk, or the scots benefit more from being in the uk?

 

You think that's a lot of debt? That ain't nothing. We are trillions deep over here man, they're fine.

 

I could care less about those companies in America. I am not a nationalist or patriot. If I was given the opportunity to leave America and move to Canada or a socialist euro country, I would do it in a heartbeat. Love the US soccer team, the beautiful scenery here, but don't love our politics, attitude, and people. The first sign this country starts to crumble I'm out man.

Edited September 18, 2014 by markjazzbassist

[MikeO]

Woken up to the expected result, not even that close in the end.

[Newty82]

Woken up to the expected result, not even that close in the end.

Yep. Now the politicians need to grow some balls, sit down and sort it out. Let each country make more decisions for themselves.

 

MarkJazz...its hard to say who benefits more. Very hard. But the point is as a United Kingdom we have achieved more on a world scale than we would have individualy. Your missing this point.

 

And no, I never said it was a lot of debt. Again you are missing the point. The point was that 4 years ago Ireland and it's banks were fucked and needed a huge bailout. Maybe you should read more of what is actually being said???

 

Anyway, it's done. 55% No. It's not a victory, it's a new beginning for the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

[Matt]

 

It's very different. Take a gander...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9336923/Welsh-and-Cornish-are-the-purest-Britons-scientists-claim.html

If the Celts came from Gaul and invaded Britannia, how are they the most pure Britons?! Celts are bloody French!

 

 

 

Also, being the most biologically pure is not a title I would want at all, it means that they didn't diversify with breeding.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Matt

[markjazzbassist]

Yep. Now the politicians need to grow some balls, sit down and sort it out. Let each country make more decisions for themselves.

 

MarkJazz...its hard to say who benefits more. Very hard. But the point is as a United Kingdom we have achieved more on a world scale than we would have individualy. Your missing this point.

 

And no, I never said it was a lot of debt. Again you are missing the point. The point was that 4 years ago Ireland and it's banks were fucked and needed a huge bailout. Maybe you should read more of what is actually being said???

 

Anyway, it's done. 55% No. It's not a victory, it's a new beginning for the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

 

right, i think the point is they don't benefit much from the uK, but england benefits from them. hence why independence was on the table.

 

i got your point, i got the bailout, i'm just saying they are fine, the EU has high standards (which is a good thing) but the US should have been bankrupt years go, we are bleeding money so fast and we are fine, so i'm saying although the media did the whole "world is gonna end in ireland" in actuality, they're fine and it wasn't.

 

you're right no victory, but in 5-10 years time when all the old fogies pass on, i'm sure it will pass.

[Newty82]

 

right, i think the point is they don't benefit much from the uK, but england benefits from them. hence why independence was on the table.

Go then, educate me on this one...

[Cornish Steve]

it's a new beginning for the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

 

...and Northern Ireland. At least, that's what my passport tells me.