Scottish Independence

[Bailey]

Funny you should say that Matt as I have just been reading up on it a little more.

 

A lot of the yes campaign videos and meetings etc that I have watched and read seem to be full of optimism of what Scotland could be and could do if they were independent which does look promising in all fairness. Some of the ideas I have seen, especially those regarding harvesting different forms of energy are eye opening, but it wont be these people with these ideas in charge. It will be politicians who serve little more than making hollow promises to try and keep themselves in power from the posh areas and schools in Scotland rather than England.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens if they do vote yes because I really doubt the practicality of it all has thought of. How are they going to organise the border? What are they going to do if we dont allow them to have the pound? Will they be allowed into the Euro (given several other countries are against the seperation and it requires all EU nations to say yes)? How are the oil reserves going to be shared (given different nationality of companies have extracted the oil)?

 

Alex Salmond wanted these debates because he is a good speaker but when he gets questioned on detail which Alistair Darling did, he cant answer the questions because he doesn't know the answers and that's a scary thought for anyone voting yes.

[James McCrory]

I've got the vote this Thursday and still don't know what way I'm going to vote. Too many lies and false promises from both sides and particularly Westminster with they're panic ridden promises. They're last minute promises have made some people more determined to vote yes due to the 'insulting and patronising' statements. Also we have been finding the BBC bias in their reporting and showing the No campaign in a more prominent and positive way. So I'll make up my mind on Thursday when I get into the polling station.

[StevO]

The yes voters I've seen on TV and heard on radio sound more like they are voting yes because "we are Scotland and don't need the fuckin English" rather than being better off independent.

 

If I was them I'd be worried about all of it. If they take 10% of the military and with a very small budget, and possible loss of the pound, that would scare me. If they do go independent, cut them off, no pound, no military support, no help in setting their country up, no use of our education system, and no chance of getting back in.

[Cornish Steve]

If the yes vote wins, I seriously hope it's a prelude to the United Celtic Nations. That would be really exciting.

[Matt]

[Bailey]

I've got the vote this Thursday and still don't know what way I'm going to vote. Too many lies and false promises from both sides and particularly Westminster with they're panic ridden promises. They're last minute promises have made some people more determined to vote yes due to the 'insulting and patronising' statements. Also we have been finding the BBC bias in their reporting and showing the No campaign in a more prominent and positive way. So I'll make up my mind on Thursday when I get into the polling station.

 

I must admit that I dont envy you! It might be a case of shafted if you do and shafted if you dont! I would also be favouring the yes campaign given the reasons you have stated.

 

I have read some more around the subject since my last post and I actually now worry about the UK and Scotland should it be a yes. I think it would cause a lot of problems both sides of the border internally and I also think it would weaken both sides in Europe and across the world. Lets be honest, no-one will give a flying fuck about what Scotland thinks on world wide issues, the UK's view will also be of less value. Albeit from what I have read, Scotland doesnt necessarily want to exercise its view on world matters and would much rather take a back seat.

 

I think it will be in the best interest of the whole of the UK if more powers were given to each country to manage itself better. I do think its wrong that 'London' takes more from Scotland (and probably Wales or N Ireland) than they necessarily cost. However if you gave those powers to the respective governments in Scotland or Wales etc, I would query how much the people of each nation would actually see of it, much the same way the people of the rest of England probably dont see as much of the money as London does.

[johnh]

If the Yes vote wins then I'm glad I'm not Scottish. The thought of putting my future in the hands of Salmond and his cronies would be truly frightening.

[Matt]

I said to a friend before. Good luck, Scotland. Even if this whole thing doesn't go the way the Scots (Yes clan) want hopefully some good will come of it.

 

Though, as I've always maintained, if the whole thing is handled by politicians (which it will be) it's going to be the same shit over and again...

[Louis]

the stuff from Scotland is whisky

Scotch once it leaves the country.

[Newty82]

65% No....35% Yes. The silent ones will speak, and they are silent because they are 'No'. I really hope that the famous Scottish pride can be swallowed a little and that common sense can prevail.

 

I find it hard to believe that they are having a vote with so many unanswered questions. I also find it difficult that 16 year old can vote. Most of these can't make beans on toast, yet they can take part in this vote? C'mon, that's shocking.

 

The big swinger for me will be that while the Scots dislike the Westminster decision making (can't blame them really...even Northerners don't like that!), at least they know where they are. Go independent, and it's all up in the air.

 

Currency for example...the most important thing for a country is currency. It's strength on a global scale can make or break a nation. The scots don't know what they are going to use. Yet they may vote 'yes'?

 

Oil/Gas...its ok saying you have it and that is what will support the economy. But how do you know what value is on it? You become independent, the world knows you are relying in this resource to make your country work, you don't think the extracting companies are going to be real mean in negotiating prices etc? If they decide not to extract, and go elsewhere, you're screwed. Most of the fuel extracted is used in the UK. What if Westminster decide it's cheaper to import it from elsewhere? Politics can make that happen. Politics is the biggest Bitch in the history of mankind.

 

All nations go into debt. They need money from banks etc to keep the nation going. As a new independent country, they won't have a credit rating, will be seen as very high risk and will find it difficult to borrow money. When they do borrow, the interest will be a lot higher than the UK pays.

 

Could go on...so many ifs and buts. I wouldn't like to be a Scot just now. Not a chance!

[johnh]

They will get a credit rating, particularly if, as Salmond has threatened, they renege on their UK debts. Their credit rating will be a big fat zero.

[Cornish Steve]

The news outlets are reporting as if it's a dead cert for 'No'. I really really hope that Scottish voters overcome all this bias and bribery and demeaning attitudes and vote 'Yes'. People just don't understand: Celts are different in so many ways: language, culture, genetics, attitudes, history, .... England has shown time and again that it will steamroller over these things and impose its way. Nothing has fundamentally changed, except sugar-coated promises that will count for nothing. Which to believe: a few weeks' worth of promises, or several hundred years of history?

[Newty82]

The news outlets are reporting as if it's a dead cert for 'No'. I really really hope that Scottish voters overcome all this bias and bribery and demeaning attitudes and vote 'Yes'. People just don't understand: Celts are different in so many ways: language, culture, genetics, attitudes, history, .... England has shown time and again that it will steamroller over these things and impose its way. Nothing has fundamentally changed, except sugar-coated promises that will count for nothing. Which to believe: a few weeks' worth of promises, or several hundred years of history?

How are they different in so many ways? I'm married to a Glaswegian, and enjoy it when we spend time in Glasgow. Last time I spoke to my wife, she spoke the same language as me??? We got married in April and had lots of her family down, they also spoke the same language. All my 'plastic scouse' family were there...They all inter mingled brilliantly and had a brill weekend. Behind all the banter (usually sports related!), generally, both Scots and English are fine.

 

The only bias is the BBC. Avoid that at all costs on any subject.

 

All this history...Christ, the time is now. If they are still angry because William Wallace got hung, drawn and quartered...well, that's sad. We English can't forever be the bad guys just because thousands of years ago we dared to venture and take ownership of land...in an era when every civilisation was doing the same! I'll stop there with that one as I am in danger of going over my own head!!! Ha!

 

We are what we are. As a United Kingdom, has it done us any harm? We have many privileges that other nations envy.

 

Fair enough, each country should have much more influence on what happens in their own land. But all this anti England stuff is dated. It's old news. For the UKs size, we are a big player in the world (for right or wrong reasons). Would we be if we were all separate?

 

I fear that if it is Yes, it will be because of bravado and misplaced pride. Yet will also mean some very uncertain, and hard, years for the Scots. They don't deserve that.

 

BUT...If it is yes, then good luck. Hope it goes well...because you just know that if it doesn't go well they'll only jump over the border into England.

[Newty82]

....actually, we already have 800,000 scots living in England (such a bad country aren't we??!!).

 

I wonder if it's YES, how many of the NO will express their fears by crossing the border. Some reports suggest up to a 6th of the 5.3million population.

 

And we complain about Muslims....!!!! (That's tongue in cheek before anyone kicks off!!!)

[Cornish Steve]

Last time I spoke to my wife, she spoke the same language as me???

 

There are six Celtic nations, and we each had our own language. Those languages, which are very similar to one another, are not Germanic; they come from Asia Minor. The letters are different, the pronunciations are different, and the grammar is different - completely different. The only reason that so many Scots speak English today is because England pretty much forced them too throughout history.

 

Take Wales as another example. Everyone used to be 'ap' the father's name ('son of'). Ap Tomos, Ap Huw, etc. The English forced the Welsh to have English-style surnames. ap Harry became Parry, ap Richard became Pritchard, and Huw became Pugh, and many just added an 's': Edwards, Williams, Roberts, Johns/Jones, etc.

 

History is important. Culture is important. For centuries, England has bullied and imposed and trampled on Celtic culture. Obviously, not everyone feels this way, but I for one am proud of my culture and language (albeit Cornish is now a dead language) and nation. It's not English; it's very different from English. If it had been respected through history, I would have no problem with being part of a union with England. As it is, though, the English never have respected the Celts. It took the EU to recognize the Cornish, for example, as a distinct ethnic group.

 

Don't underestimate how strongly we feel on this! Strong enough to want to be an independent nation? For Scotland, maybe yes. For Ireland, yes. For Wales, maybe. For Cornwall, not practical unless there's a union of Celtic states - which I secretly hope for.

[Cornish Steve]

I fear that if it is Yes, it will be because of bravado and misplaced pride. Yet will also mean some very uncertain, and hard, years for the Scots. They don't deserve that.

 

Would you like me to find an identical quote about Ireland before they achieved independence? Today, they have higher per capita income than the British.

[Newty82]

Let me just check if I'm right here Steve...

 

You originate from Cornwall. You live in America (this is the bit I'm unsure of...from previous posts, I have you as living there? Some language used in posts indicates this too???) And you want Scotland to become independent based purely on some secret hope of a reunion of Celtic nations from thousands of years ago?

 

Didn't the Celtic language spread right across Europe at one point? But it just 'died' out? You clearly know much more than me on this subject.

 

I'm all for tradition. We need tradition. But using history in such a way, a way that causes a bit of hatred, is wrong. I appreciate your passion for your long gone roots...but the world's moved on. And will do so again and again.

[Newty82]

 

Would you like me to find an identical quote about Ireland before they achieved independence? Today, they have higher per capita income than the British.

Yeah, go on. I'm quite interested in these things. I like a bit of history. To a degree. It always gets my imagination.

[Matt]

Would you like me to find an identical quote about Ireland before they achieved independence? Today, they have higher per capita income than the British.

aren't Ireland bankrupt?

[Newty82]

 

Would you like me to find an identical quote about Ireland before they achieved independence? Today, they have higher per capita income than the British.

Didn't they need a big bail out from the EU during the 'crash'??? I thought they landed deep in the shit during that time?

[Romey 1878]

aren't Ireland bankrupt?

They were bailed out. Probably by England, ironically .

[Newty82]

aren't Ireland bankrupt?

I thought that too???

[Matt]

They were bailed out. Probably by England, ironically .

aaah, not bankrupt. Just in massive debt because they were on the verge of bankruptcy. Much better.

[Newty82]

They were bailed out. Probably by England, ironically .

We, as in the UK, contribute a lot of money to the fund that is used to bail such countries out!!

[Cornish Steve]

Let me just check if I'm right here Steve...

 

You originate from Cornwall. You live in America (this is the bit I'm unsure of...from previous posts, I have you as living there? Some language used in posts indicates this too???) And you want Scotland to become independent based purely on some secret hope of a reunion of Celtic nations from thousands of years ago?

 

Didn't the Celtic language spread right across Europe at one point? But it just 'died' out? You clearly know much more than me on this subject.

 

I'm all for tradition. We need tradition. But using history in such a way, a way that causes a bit of hatred, is wrong. I appreciate your passion for your long gone roots...but the world's moved on. And will do so again and again.

 

I originate from Cornwall, yes. I have a family tree that goes back to about 1450, and almost all come from mid and west Cornwall. My last name comes from the Cornish language. Despite now living in the US, I have a very strong association with Cornwall as a Celtic nation.

 

The Celtic language originated with the Gauls, and their language came from Asia Minor: Galatia (Gal-atia) to be precise. Some group one or two other European languages as Celtic, but most agree that there are six. They are divided into two groups of three and referred to as either the P-group or the Q-group. Within each group, they are almost like dialects. The Welsh, for example, can take a holiday in Brittany and chat quite happily with those speaking Breton. The third language in that group was Cornish, which is no longer spoken as a first language. The other group of three are Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx (although the latter died out as a first language a few decades ago).

 

It's not hatred, by the way. It's a sense of pride in one's heritage. That pride is exaggerated when it's been suppressed and trampled on for so long. Yes, there's a bit of resentment, but there's really no hatred of anyone. That, as you suggest, would be petty.

 

On the other hand, was it wrong for Ireland (another of the Celtic nations) to break away from the UK? Most would probably say "no". So why is Scotland any different? Looking at this objectively, I suspect that many will vote against independence today simply because we take comfort on the status quo. If the vote goes for independence, I suspect that young voters will have made the difference, because they are less worried about status quo and relish in being different.

[Cornish Steve]

Didn't they need a big bail out from the EU during the 'crash'??? I thought they landed deep in the shit during that time?

 

I've lost track in recent years. I do know, however, that their per-capita income exceeded Britain's about 20 years ago.

[Newty82]

Thanks for the bit of education! Nice.

 

I appreciate your 'love' of your tradition. But things move on. They evolve. Something we can both relate to is when Everton finally move from GP, there will be a load of people who want us to stay based on tradition. Tradition can halt progress.

 

Historical reasons from thousands of years ago are not a reason to vote 'YES'. As I said, too many uncertainties.

[Matt]

Sorry Steve, Im going to try and be as polite as I can and Im apologising in advance it I dont come across that way. Got a lot of time for you but a couple of things youve mentioned here really annoyed me, and I am not even close to being patriotic.

 

The news outlets are reporting as if it's a dead cert for 'No'. I really really hope that Scottish voters overcome all this bias and bribery and demeaning attitudes and vote 'Yes'. People just don't understand: Celts are different in so many ways: language, culture, genetics, attitudes, history, .... England has shown time and again that it will steamroller over these things and impose its way. Nothing has fundamentally changed, except sugar-coated promises that will count for nothing. Which to believe: a few weeks' worth of promises, or several hundred years of history?

Of course. Just like people from London are very different in so many ways from Scousers. People are different, end of. Celts are people that are integrated into England and the world. Of course they're different, every culture is different. Thats not an excuse to jeopardize the country's well-being

 

Sugar coated promises come from politicians - don't confuse them with the English because that implies they are borderline human (thats a general statement, there must be goods ones out there somewhere). If you get a Celtic nation, and a governing body, you will see exactly the same thing. But don't finger point the English here, especially as in recent times the Celts are very well represented in the governing of all the UK countries.

 

Personally, I think too much attention is given to history; its far too romanticised and clouds peoples vision of the future . Of course, it has to be preserved and taught so we can learn from our mistakes. But I am much more interested in the future. I don't say I'm English (unless people say "hey you're British", I feel the need to educate them), I say I'm me. Fuck nationality. Just like religion, its an excuse to fight over. The history is there, it will remain. Changing a name wouldn't change whats happened and has no impact on what has passed. Making a statement of independence however makes a massive statement towards what is still to come, something that will affect people who are alive and those still to come. They are the people who count.

 

 

There are six Celtic nations, and we each had our own language. Those languages, which are very similar to one another, are not Germanic; they come from Asia Minor. The letters are different, the pronunciations are different, and the grammar is different - completely different. The only reason that so many Scots speak English today is because England pretty much forced them too throughout history.

 

Take Wales as another example. Everyone used to be 'ap' the father's name ('son of'). Ap Tomos, Ap Huw, etc. The English forced the Welsh to have English-style surnames. ap Harry became Parry, ap Richard became Pritchard, and Huw became Pugh, and many just added an 's': Edwards, Williams, Roberts, Johns/Jones, etc.

 

History is important. Culture is important. For centuries, England has bullied and imposed and trampled on Celtic culture. Obviously, not everyone feels this way, but I for one am proud of my culture and language (albeit Cornish is now a dead language) and nation. It's not English; it's very different from English. If it had been respected through history, I would have no problem with being part of a union with England. As it is, though, the English never have respected the Celts. It took the EU to recognize the Cornish, for example, as a distinct ethnic group.

 

Don't underestimate how strongly we feel on this! Strong enough to want to be an independent nation? For Scotland, maybe yes. For Ireland, yes. For Wales, maybe. For Cornwall, not practical unless there's a union of Celtic states - which I secretly hope for.

 

Whilst I've said that too much attention is given to history, it would be foolish to say its not important. History is indeed important. For example, before England steam-rolled in and stopped the clans from fighting, murdering and imposing their will on others amongst themselves, the Celts were not united. But lets skip over the fact the Celtic nations were too busy fighting amongst themselves to actually defend themselves. Happened to the groups in England too, just to be fair, until united, stronger, entities (Vikings, Romans) came along and whooped the groups into shape.

 

To be English means you are the collective of many, many cultures. To declare independence and isolate yourself in that way is just insulting to me. We should be working towards a unified collective instead of segregation.

 

I say all this as someone who is decended mostly from Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I mapped my family tree to find French too, and my surname is of Danish origins. I love that I am a mix, I love that I am a mongrel. I love the fact that I am able to go and mix with other cultures, broaden my horizons and break boundaries. My history is what it is, I cannot change that. But I flat out refuse to isolate myself because it is not good for me, and in general its not good for mankind. If things are to improve, we should be united. Declaring independence moves the other way for seemlingly no other reasons than pride, selfishness and historical grudges.

 

We should be looking forward to saying "I'm European" or "I'm a citizen of the world" than sticking to stupid national pride. We should be uniting, not splitting up. I'll finish on one of my favourite Pink Floyd lines (I know they didnt coin it)...

 

"United we stand, divided we fall"

[Matt]

Thanks for the bit of education! Nice.

 

I appreciate your 'love' of your tradition. But things move on. They evolve. Something we can both relate to is when Everton finally move from GP, there will be a load of people who want us to stay based on tradition. Tradition can halt progress.

 

Historical reasons from thousands of years ago are not a reason to vote 'YES'. As I said, too many uncertainties.

Spot on.

 

I should say, I am envious of people who have national pride. To have that love and devotion is kind of admirable. But letting it blind you so progress is slowed or even stopped is irresponsible.

[johnh]

This is probably an over simplification but Ireland boomed primarily on EU subsidies. When world economies went pear shaped, Ireland were caught in the trap of being in the Euro, just like Southern Europe. The difference being that Ireland applied the resulting austerity measures to far greater effect than Italy, Spain and (particularly) Greece. There is still a long way to go though. The currency and interest rates are the biggest problem as EU finances will always be run for/by Germany.