US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[Palfy]

Assad has got a bit of what he deserves but not enough in my opinion, and not a squeak out of Russia and Iran, what does that tell you?

[Sir McGiven]

well, Russia and Iran did not react which is a good thing at least. if you wanna see the sparks of a brand new world war, you are looking into the right place. sign yourself up as a volunteer and go to Syria, you'll have the joy of your life there. you look like really enjoying it.

I would agree to this if the bombs were being dropped on Assad himself. But they didn't bomb Assad, specific places in Damascus where also innocent people lives. Oh, this was for "bringing peace for innocent people of Syria", right. I forgot...

 

There is an unproven rumour as well. I don't care if Heather Nauert says "We have enough proof", it is unproven, not investigated by an unbiased organisation . You have had enough proof before invading Iraq, we've seen what happened after...

This is not a game or a freak show (well, thanks to trump it is now), while you drink your ale with your kids and watching the game of your fav. EPL team, people suffering there badly. Believe me, I know, I have been there. I have also been in the east of Turkey many times, been in Greece while people floating on the water between Greece and Turkey, been in Iraq. I've seen people who were running away from Saddam, people who were supporting Saddam, both were suffering equally. Same applies to Syria. There is always one winner and it is not the war that you win...

Well, at least it is showing me which kind of people support this fanatically, Trump supporters in the US, Erdogan supporters were quite happy yesterday, you should have seen... No idea about the UK yet, but at least I know the profile in the US and Turkey.

[Palfy]

42 minutes ago, Sir McGiven said:

well, Russia and Iran did not react which is a good thing at least. if you wanna see the sparks of a brand new world war, you are looking into the right place. sign yourself up as a volunteer and go to Syria, you'll have the joy of your life there. you look like really enjoying it.

I would agree to this if the bombs were being dropped on Assad himself. But they didn't bomb Assad, specific places in Damascus where also innocent people lives. Oh, this was for "bringing peace for innocent people of Syria", right. I forgot...

 

There is an unproven rumour as well. I don't care if Heather Nauert says "We have enough proof", it is unproven, not investigated by an unbiased organisation . You have had enough proof before invading Iraq, we've seen what happened after...

This is not a game or a freak show (well, thanks to trump it is now), while you drink your ale with your kids and watching the game of your fav. EPL team, people suffering there badly. Believe me, I know, I have been there. I have also been in the east of Turkey many times, been in Greece while people floating on the water between Greece and Turkey, been in Iraq. I've seen people who were running away from Saddam, people who were supporting Saddam, both were suffering equally. Same applies to Syria. There is always one winner and it is not the war that you win...

Well, at least it is showing me which kind of people support this fanatically, Trump supporters in the US, Erdogan supporters were quite happy yesterday, you should have seen... No idea about the UK yet, but at least I know the profile in the US and Turkey.

So we sit back and do nothing while the Assad regime under the protection of the Russians, commit genocide with the use of chemical weapons on children.

That might be the Turkish stance do nothing and it might go away, but it's not Britain's, America's or France's, thankfully, it's the people who do nothing that fuel the fires of all the regime's that think they can kill indiscriminately using what ever means they like.

[Sir McGiven]

Mate, I did not tell anything like that. You are making it up or just simply distracting... 

I am not even a Muslim and couldn't care less what Turkey's stance on that or Turkey's stance for any other Muslim country. But I will give you this, we are hosting millions of more refugees than you have ever had in your country. Blaming The UK for that? Nope, I don't like to see that in my country either... I am just trying to say, it is the 21st century and there should be other ways than bombing the whole ground to take down one dictator. Russia is guilty as well. I am not trying to justify their stance there. This benefit-oriented dogfight between big countries in a totally irrelevant piece of land to their countries is ruining the whole country and its citizens.

You live in more civilized countries (arguably including mine) like UK, USA, France, Germany... Those people were already suffering under a reign of a dictator and those people who did not flee and still have to live around there thinking like "oh, then this is how you bringing peace, democracy somewhere" This is not a good example to shape up their minds, more dangerously on kids over there seeing this as well. When they grow up, they are becoming other radical Islamist terrorists.

What goes around, comes around. If this is the way of the civilized people, you cannot question the existence of ISIS, Al-Qaeda. You are giving something to one crazy caveman to brainwash ignorant people and they are forming these kinds of terrorist groups.

It is also sad to see UN's existence in this kind of conflicts is worthless. People bring rumours to UNSC, "Assad used chemical weapons", "Saddam has chemical weapons" etc... UNSC tries to get a consensual validation. Either USA or Russia rejects, their votes are against all and boom, no consensus... It is really cringe-worthy that grown-up men who are the presidents of the strongest countries of the modern world can't get any results out of diplomacy, instead invades a poor little country for just to take down a simple dictator prick...

Is Iraq more democratic country than it was before? What about Libya? Afghanistan? They don't have a dictator anymore as well as a piece of land they used to call "home".  

If you really think that coalition of the USA, UK and France cannot get down Assad with a simple diplomacy, cannot deal with Russia's protection (The UK is famous for its expertise on diplomacy, right?) than I have no other argument. Many countries think that Trump is a clown, even the leaders of civilized countries, but no one trying to invade the USA.

I am not a Russia supporter or a portrait of an Islamist Erdogan supporter Turkish citizen which you can see nowadays. I've been in those places, have seen the people suffering from my own eyes and sharing what I see and what I think. What do I think about Russia? They invaded Ukraine, crushed the lands I lived for 2 years (Luhansk and Donetsk region), killed the people I know and my friends who were the part of my life once. There is not and won't be a day that I will support anything about Russia and its politics...

 

PS:

Each Tomahawk fired to Damascus yesterday costs 1 million and 590 thousand dollars. Each anti-missile fired by Russian and Syrian air defence system yesterday to destroy a Tomahawk in the sky costs 240 million dollars in total. (According to Syrian sources they have fired 71 anti-missile) You can calculate what should have been done with that much money for the suffered people of a country after bringing down a dictator.

Islamic Army, opposite group that coalition supports in Syria against Assad has released a publication this morning;

"This attack yesterday has destroyed every shred of evidence of the chemical attack of Assad on Syrian people in Duma. This is just tragicomic..."

SNC, another opposition group which has been supported by coalition again Assad declared;

"We don't think Assad will try to use any chemical weapons anymore but barrel bombs and cluster bombs will be dropped again by him. Basically, this attack only tells him 'Ok, as long as you don't use the chemical weapons, do whatever you want..' This is a shame for humanity."

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Sir McGiven said:

Mate, I did not tell anything like that. You are making it up or just simply distracting... 

I am not even a Muslim and couldn't care less what Turkey's stance on that or Turkey's stance for any other Muslim country. But I will give you this, we are hosting millions of more refugees than you have ever had in your country. Blaming The UK for that? Nope, I don't like to see that in my country either... I am just trying to say, it is the 21st century and there should be other ways than bombing the whole ground to take down one dictator. Russia is guilty as well. I am not trying to justify their stance there. This benefit-oriented dogfight between big countries in a totally irrelevant piece of land to their countries is ruining the whole country and its citizens.

You live in more civilized countries (arguably including mine) like UK, USA, France, Germany... Those people were already suffering under a reign of a dictator and those people who did not flee and still have to live around there thinking like "oh, then this is how you bringing peace, democracy somewhere" This is not a good example to shape up their minds, more dangerously on kids over there seeing this as well. When they grow up, they are becoming other radical Islamist terrorists.

What goes around, comes around. If this is the way of the civilized people, you cannot question the existence of ISIS, Al-Qaeda. You are giving something to one crazy caveman to brainwash ignorant people and they are forming these kinds of terrorist groups.

It is also sad to see UN's existence in this kind of conflicts is worthless. People bring rumours to UNSC, "Assad used chemical weapons", "Saddam has chemical weapons" etc... UNSC tries to get a consensual validation. Either USA or Russia rejects, their votes are against all and boom, no consensus... It is really cringe-worthy that grown-up men who are the presidents of the strongest countries of the modern world can't get any results out of diplomacy, instead invades a poor little country for just to take down a simple dictator prick...

Is Iraq more democratic country than it was before? What about Libya? Afghanistan? They don't have a dictator anymore as well as a piece of land they used to call "home".  

If you really think that coalition of the USA, UK and France cannot get down Assad with a simple diplomacy, cannot deal with Russia's protection (The UK is famous for its expertise on diplomacy, right?) than I have no other argument. Many countries think that Trump is a clown, even the leaders of civilized countries, but no one trying to invade the USA.

I am not a Russia supporter or a portrait of an Islamist Erdogan supporter Turkish citizen which you can see nowadays. I've been in those places, have seen the people suffering from my own eyes and sharing what I see and what I think. What do I think about Russia? They invaded Ukraine, crushed the lands I lived for 2 years (Luhansk and Donetsk region), killed the people I know and my friends who were the part of my life once. There is not and won't be a day that I will support anything about Russia and its politics...

 

PS:

Each Tomahawk fired to Damascus yesterday costs 1 million and 590 thousand dollars. Each anti-missile fired by Russian and Syrian air defence system yesterday to destroy a Tomahawk in the sky costs 240 million dollars in total. (According to Syrian sources they have fired 71 anti-missile) You can calculate what should have been done with that much money for the suffered people of a country after bringing down a dictator.

Islamic Army, opposite group that coalition supports in Syria against Assad has released a publication this morning;

"This attack yesterday has destroyed every shred of evidence of the chemical attack of Assad on Syrian people in Duma. This is just tragicomic..."

SNC, another opposition group which has been supported by coalition again Assad declared;

"We don't think Assad will try to use any chemical weapons anymore but barrel bombs and cluster bombs will be dropped again by him. Basically, this attack only tells him 'Ok, as long as you don't use the chemical weapons, do whatever you want..' This is a shame for humanity."

Each innocent life taken by Assad and his regime priceless, and because I live in a free society as free is possible with a right to free speech I know how good that feels, and I believe everyone should have that feeling, this has nothing to do in my eyes with race or religion, maybe you think we should carry on talking while they carry on killing not me, we've been down that route with Assad and he's not listening, so give him some of his own medicine.

[Sir McGiven]

Well, it is another point of view and I respect that but only one point you have mentioned i can contravene in your last post; "so give him some of his own medicine." It is not the medicine for Assad as "smart bombs" are not smart enough to be aimed at Assad himself or intentionally not being aimed at him. Coalition targets places, not Assad. Since the day coalition decided to move into Syria to save it Assad's regime and end ISIS threat, Assad is still alive or not captured somehow.

Coalition never tried to bomb where he is located but bombed the other targets. ISIS is not power as they were but still exist, actually, while coalition started bombing Damascus yesterday, they have used it as a chance and attacked Damascus from the south of the city.

As a conclusion of my way of thinking, when I want to see the picture of what came out of this Syria crisis so far, I only see;

 

- Assad is still alive and there.

- ISIS is weak but still there.

- Syria is not more democratic but the country is a whole mess.

- Innocent civilians died, many fled and unable to live in their "home" country and also became a burden on the "host" countries.

- Bombings happened in Europe, in Turkey as a reaction. Way more innocent civilians died and they were even not related to Syrian subject, they were innocent European people far away from Syria.

[johnh]

18 hours ago, Sir McGiven said:

Not saying what Mr Ford says is the truth itself as indicated in the video's headline but as a former ambassador to Syria, it is worth to pay attention to what he says. I assume he has some reliable sources than any of us or some journalists and also underlining some important "possible" facts as long as Gary Robertson allow him while he is not trying to interrupt.

Have a look at Ford's Wikipedia entry.   'Since 2006 he has been a supporter of the Assad regime'.  When he was ambassador to Syria, it appears he went 'native'.  In the video above, he gives himself away by arguing his points too aggressively.  A neutral person would have been calmer and  more rational.

[Sir McGiven]

17 minutes ago, johnh said:

Have a look at Ford's Wikipedia entry.   'Since 2006 he has been a supporter of the Assad regime'.  When he was ambassador to Syria, it appears he went 'native'.  In the video above, he gives himself away by arguing his points too aggressively.  A neutral person would have been calmer and  more rational.

Can't argue mate. I don't know him as much as you may and Wikipedia is still censored in Turkey ha! (The irony here... ) 

For me, it doesn't change the fact that it might be staged unless it is proven by an independent organisation. No matter what, Assad should leave and Syrian people sent back to their country. After that, they can decide for themselves, not any other foreign country.

[Cornish Steve]

Now the US appears to care for the plight of innocent Syrians, how about joining the rest of the civilized world by offering asylum to suffering refugees?

[Romey 1878]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Now the US appears to care for the plight of innocent Syrians, how about joining the rest of the civilized world by offering asylum to suffering refugees?

They don’t. They care about oil. Same as the stupid bat that’s jumped up Trump’s arse on this issue. 

[markjazzbassist]

What makes Syrians more important than the Africans being abdicated and killer by boko haram?  What makes them more important than the rogingya being exterminated?  What about the Palestinians being subjected to occupation by the Israelis?  There are many more atrocities, either the US and Uk and alike need to combat them all or combat none.  Picking and choosing is what makes enemies and creates organizations like ISis, taliban, etc.  

 

this is is my opinion.  I’d prefer we dealt with the issues in our country first like racism, poverty, a corrupt prison system, political corruption, etc.  But if we must be team America world police, let’s actually do it the right way and get rid of some of these bastards in Africa and Asia as well.  Not just oil rich Middle East.

[Sir McGiven]

No worries Mark, UN is there, taking care of it. When there is no valuable resource UN is the democracy bringer. Partying all night, getting paid 5 times more compared to their salaries at HQ. Never leaving the compound where they even have "Carrefour" but in the annual meetings, summits, with fancy dresses, they present us how much money allocated to help suffering people.

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, Sir McGiven said:

Well, it is another point of view and I respect that but only one point you have mentioned i can contravene in your last post; "so give him some of his own medicine." It is not the medicine for Assad as "smart bombs" are not smart enough to be aimed at Assad himself or intentionally not being aimed at him. Coalition targets places, not Assad. Since the day coalition decided to move into Syria to save it Assad's regime and end ISIS threat, Assad is still alive or not captured somehow.

Coalition never tried to bomb where he is located but bombed the other targets. ISIS is not power as they were but still exist, actually, while coalition started bombing Damascus yesterday, they have used it as a chance and attacked Damascus from the south of the city.

As a conclusion of my way of thinking, when I want to see the picture of what came out of this Syria crisis so far, I only see;

 

- Assad is still alive and there.

- ISIS is weak but still there.

- Syria is not more democratic but the country is a whole mess.

- Innocent civilians died, many fled and unable to live in their "home" country and also became a burden on the "host" countries.

- Bombings happened in Europe, in Turkey as a reaction. Way more innocent civilians died and they were even not related to Syrian subject, they were innocent European people far away from Syria.

To be honest you’re biggest problem is the refugees living in your country, reading between the lines you are more concerned about what it maybe costing you or your country than their welfare. 

Dont worry the cost is being born by the EU there was a deal done where you put them in camps and stopped them coming into Europe and we paid your government for doing so, so no need to panic on that point you’re country is making money to keep them there, just look at it like there on holiday on an all inclusive board and your government own the hotel. 

[Sir McGiven]

If that's the thing you get from it I don't see any reason to discuss more with you on this subject in a rational way and your parlance on your last post is quite arrogant. Pity, I was thinking like we were going to discuss matters like grown-ups for a second.

Oh and, I see your hidden "Your country got its money to keep them away from us so shut the fuck up" message and just smiling at it, very basic, a very low point.

Our current government is not representing my view as they are at 180 degrees opposite side of my world-view. Trump is not representing the views of all Americans, same applies May, Merkel, Macron etc... I would welcome refugees for a period of time and also would not make them a part of a trade deal at all. They are human, not a trade asset. Such a shame for my country but that's exactly what our current government did on the other hand, but at least they have never hidden their intentions. They were always looking something to turn into gold, eventually, their bottom has been human beings...Regarding refugee problem of mine, we can discuss why I am bothered by this refugee crisis when yours hosts 3+ million refugees like us. You are not at that level, you are not in the same situation but you may soon because that government still waiting for the last part of the payment, otherwise they will open our EU borders for them. Oh, of course, then you will pay Greece to keep them away from you.

If you think you can keep someone or something you don't like away from you by paying for it, how much money your country will ask Assad to pay to stay away from Syria? 

I think, and regardless what I think it is obvious, England is more civilized and modern country than my country, especially nowadays. It is a greater country than my country in many ways but it does not make you better than me. Don't mix things and keep your self-righteousness away from me. It is not a holiday, we are not a hotel owner and your sense of humour on this matter is a joke itself. I am deeply sorry for you.

 

P.S. It is not "you're", it is "your".

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Sir McGiven said:

P.S. It is not "you're", it is "your".

Had to smile at this. Let's see whether Palfy is able to respond in grammatically correct Turkish. 

[Palfy]

 

 

6 hours ago, Sir McGiven said:

If that's the thing you get from it I don't see any reason to discuss more with you on this subject in a rational way and your parlance on your last post is quite arrogant. Pity, I was thinking like we were going to discuss matters like grown-ups for a second.

Oh and, I see your hidden "Your country got its money to keep them away from us so shut the fuck up" message and just smiling at it, very basic, a very low point.

Our current government is not representing my view as they are at 180 degrees opposite side of my world-view. Trump is not representing the views of all Americans, same applies May, Merkel, Macron etc... I would welcome refugees for a period of time and also would not make them a part of a trade deal at all. They are human, not a trade asset. Such a shame for my country but that's exactly what our current government did on the other hand, but at least they have never hidden their intentions. They were always looking something to turn into gold, eventually, their bottom has been human beings...Regarding refugee problem of mine, we can discuss why I am bothered by this refugee crisis when yours hosts 3+ million refugees like us. You are not at that level, you are not in the same situation but you may soon because that government still waiting for the last part of the payment, otherwise they will open our EU borders for them. Oh, of course, then you will pay Greece to keep them away from you.

If you think you can keep someone or something you don't like away from you by paying for it, how much money your country will ask Assad to pay to stay away from Syria? 

I think, and regardless what I think it is obvious, England is more civilized and modern country than my country, especially nowadays. It is a greater country than my country in many ways but it does not make you better than me. Don't mix things and keep your self-righteousness away from me. It is not a holiday, we are not a hotel owner and your sense of humour on this matter is a joke itself. I am deeply sorry for you.

 

P.S. It is not "you're", it is "your".

I thank you for your correction.

And I must say I'm pleased that you feel there is no more to discuss, it was becoming very tiresome anyway. And the pot of gold your government are chasing is full membership of the E.U thankfully that will never happen in my lifetime, and that was one of the key points in the Brexiteers campaign to leave the threat of Turkey joining and millions of Turkish people heading our way.

It was very disappointing that so many bought into that,

it was never going to happen, firstly your countries human rights issues are shocking and would take years if not hundreds to meet the criteria and standards acceptable to the E.U, and secondly every time the motion was brought forward your good friends the Greeks would veto it ever time.

And on the point of your government being paid to keep the refugees in your country, I never told you to shut the fuck up I just answered your concerns on your comments on how much it was costing you, because I could see that was very upsetting to you so I was only trying to do the gentlemanly thing and putting you at ease.

And I don't want it to seem like I'm teaching you how to suck eggs, but if you and millions of your countrymen are so against your government and how your countries run, then stand up and fight to change it, it won't happen on its own.

[Sir McGiven]

I'll just put this here and run away 

[Cornish Steve]

Well, this must have killed any chance the US had of hosting the World Cup in 2026.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385115-trump-warns-countries-against-opposing-2026-world-cup-bid

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Well, this must have killed any chance the US had of hosting the World Cup in 2026.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385115-trump-warns-countries-against-opposing-2026-world-cup-bid

Jesus. All I can do is shake my damn head.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, tonkaroost said:

Jesus. All I can do is shake my damn head.

Jaw dropping stuff, he's just a bully.

[markjazzbassist]

when morocco wins the bid i fully expect to see him withdraw us funds from them.

[markjazzbassist]

http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world-cup/story/3473731/fifa-points-to-ethics-rules-after-trump-tweets-support-of-world-cup-bid

 

sounds like the WC is a no go then for US

[Sibdane]

I'm sure Mexico and Canada are thrilled.

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, tonkaroost said:

I'm sure Mexico and Canada are thrilled.

If they could do a joint bid, that would be amazing

[Sir McGiven]

Wouldn't be hard logistically? travel-wise, schedule-wise etc?

I would love to see that though, an interesting mix.

[Sibdane]

15 minutes ago, Matt said:

If they could do a joint bid, that would be amazing

That would be amazing.

10 minutes ago, Sir McGiven said:

Wouldn't be hard logistically? travel-wise, schedule-wise etc?

I would love to see that though, an interesting mix.

It would be a logistical nightmare. I imagine travelling from Canada to Mexico would be hell. I lived in Seattle and would travel back home to Mississippi on occasion. It was always awful, because it meant at least a day of airport-ing.

[johnh]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world-cup/story/3473731/fifa-points-to-ethics-rules-after-trump-tweets-support-of-world-cup-bid

 

sounds like the WC is a no go then for US

I can't stop laughing at FIFA quoting 'ethics rules.

[Sir McGiven]

13 minutes ago, tonkaroost said:

That would be amazing.

It would be a logistical nightmare. I imagine travelling from Canada to Mexico would be hell. I lived in Seattle and would travel back home to Mississippi on occasion. It was always awful, because it meant at least a day of airport-ing.

Well, another thing is temperature. I have never been in Mexico or Canada but after a basic research on Google, I see that Canada's average temp. in the summer is 21 and Mexico's 28. It would be a little bit unfair for the teams which would be scheduled in Mexico.

Looks like a hard combination in any way. My personal opinion on it, I have never enjoyed shared Euro Cups or World Cups. It is always better to stick in one country but I do understand why it has been a thing due to the financial burden of it for a single country. Even though it is an exotic and interesting mix it would have been to see Canada & Mexico hosting WC, probably not going to happen.

Let's give it to Trump, we don't want any more trouble

[Cornish Steve]

Temperature in Mexico is not so much of an issue as high altitude. 

[Palfy]

On 27/04/2018 at 19:54, tonkaroost said:

That would be amazing.

It would be a logistical nightmare. I imagine travelling from Canada to Mexico would be hell. I lived in Seattle and would travel back home to Mississippi on occasion. It was always awful, because it meant at least a day of airport-ing.

I've spent 3 nights in Seattle Tonka went across by speed boat from Vancouver Island I think they called it a jet boat, anyway had a great stay a  lovely seafood restaurant at the end of a jetty.