US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[Palfy]

Now that Trump has started a trade war with the E.U and others will it backfire and cost USA companies and USA more in tariffs to export their goods than they will collect on imported goods, hopefully the rest of the world stick together and make sure the USA suffers the biggest bloody nose felt to there economy since the dust bowl days. 

Then maybe he will get his comeuppance rather than another five years in power, it will definitely hurt American citizens more than him as he is hurting people from other countries, but hopefully the pain will convince Americans to get rid. 

[Palfy]

14 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Now that Trump has started a trade war with the E.U and others will it backfire and cost USA companies and USA more in tariffs to export their goods than they will collect on imported goods, hopefully the rest of the world stick together and make sure the USA suffers the biggest bloody nose felt to there economy since the dust bowl days. 

Then maybe he will get his comeuppance rather than another five years in power, it will definitely hurt American citizens more than him as he is hurting people from other countries, but hopefully the pain will convince Americans to get rid. 

Fuck rewind that probably won’t work because they import more than they export, but having said that it’s mainly due to the amount of crude oil they import and not even Trump would be stupid enough to impose tariffs on the oil they import would he ? 

[markjazzbassist]

its gonna hurt us big time.  the next president will have to renegotiate all this and make peace with everyone.  Canada and EU and China are our biggest trading partners, why would you want to fuck them over?  he's nuts.

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

its gonna hurt us big time.  the next president will have to renegotiate all this and make peace with everyone.  Canada and EU and China are our biggest trading partners, why would you want to fuck them over?  he's nuts.

Thing is mate the sooner you can get rid of him the better for all of us, the so-called special relationship between our countries is recognised and appreciated by most Brits, and it’s a chilling thought that he doesn’t care if he jeopardises it, I’m sure if things start going sour in the relationship you have with Europe as soon as he’s gone things will get back to where they should be. 

[rubecula]

4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

its gonna hurt us big time.  the next president will have to renegotiate all this and make peace with everyone.  Canada and EU and China are our biggest trading partners, why would you want to fuck them over?  he's nuts.

I know ths is going to sound insane but you should (in my opinion) follow the French system  where the president does not make too many decisions on running the country he is head of state and the government  runs the situation led by a prime minister.  this would allow you to keep better control by having a head of state who could sack the government if the went off the rails, and the government could call for the election of the president if the reverse was true.

[markjazzbassist]

2 minutes ago, rubecula said:

I know ths is going to sound insane but you should (in my opinion) follow the French system  where the president does not make too many decisions on running the country he is head of state and the government  runs the situation led by a prime minister.  this would allow you to keep better control by having a head of state who could sack the government if the went off the rails, and the government could call for the election of the president if the reverse was true.

If I could become a French citizen I would. When trump won that’s where the wife and I did a bunch of research to move.  She wanted Italy (American women love Italy for some reason) I wanted France.  We ended up moving to Cleveland

[rubecula]

15 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

If I could become a French citizen I would. When trump won that’s where the wife and I did a bunch of research to move.  She wanted Italy (American women love Italy for some reason) I wanted France.  We ended up moving to Cleveland

[nyblue23]

My investments are already suffering. I'm going back to school at 30 to make sure I have a job that will pay me legitimate money.

[Sibdane]

5 hours ago, nyblue23 said:

My investments are already suffering. I'm going back to school at 30 to make sure I have a job that will pay me legitimate money.

Yep. My holdings are looking more grim day-to-day. I'm actually pretty pissed. Trump is supposed to be a "market" guy, but it's been struggling since he took over(market correction aside). 

[markjazzbassist]

thats good for us young guys.  we want to the market to be in the pits now and then when we are old booming.  buy low and a lot sell high.

[Palfy]

On 02/06/2018 at 09:07, nyblue23 said:

My investments are already suffering. I'm going back to school at 30 to make sure I have a job that will pay me legitimate money.

Do you make your living by playing the stock markets for yourself or others. 

[nyblue23]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Do you make your living by playing the stock markets for yourself or others. 

Nah, but the normal faith I’d have in my investments to grow enough that I could stay in my current field and still retire at some point is being shattered.

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

Nah, but the normal faith I’d have in my investments to grow enough that I could stay in my current field and still retire at some point is being shattered.

Sorry to hear that mate things normally have away of turning themselves around. 

Good luck

[nyblue23]

3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Sorry to hear that mate things normally have away of turning themselves around. 

Good luck

Appreciate it. I’m sure I’m being a tad melodramatic, but it has been disheartening thinking about the periods of economic downturn and slow recovery that have resulted from the actions of my country’s last three Republican presidents, and I think Trump will have done more damage than any of them by the time he’s done.

[rubecula]

Maybe Farty will learn not to be a bully by then?  I doubt it but you never know.

[holystove]

https://www.propublica.org/article/children-separated-from-parents-border-patrol-cbp-trump-immigration-policy

I cant listen to that for more than a minute without feeling sick fury.

Every American should hang their head in shame.

[Sir McGiven]

My question is, as I think it is unclear or I am missing in the article, was this happening before Trump or it started after Trump?

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, Sir McGiven said:

My question is, as I think it is unclear or I am missing in the article, was this happening before Trump or it started after Trump?

"More than 2,300 of them have been separated from their parents since April, when the Trump administration launched its “zero tolerance” immigration policy, which calls for prosecuting all people who attempt to illegally enter the country and taking away the children they brought with them." 

and

"Still, the administration had stood by it. President Donald Trump blames Democrats and says his administration is only enforcing laws already on the books, although that’s not true. There are no laws that require children to be separated from their parents, or that call for criminal prosecutions of all undocumented border crossers. Those practices were established by the Trump administration."

Would suggest it's a new thing.

[Sir McGiven]

Gosh, that orange face...

[Sibdane]

5 hours ago, holystove said:

https://www.propublica.org/article/children-separated-from-parents-border-patrol-cbp-trump-immigration-policy

I cant listen to that for more than a minute without feeling sick fury.

Every American should hang their head in shame.

Most of us are. Sadly, until Republican supporters get their heads out of their asses then it will continue to happen. It's important in any upcoming elections that Democrats win. While I don't think the Democrats are perfect, they are the lesser of the two evils in our limited two-party system.

[markjazzbassist]

its disgusting and the blaming on democrats is stupid.  repubs controls all things house, senate, white house, supreme court, they can change it if they want to.

[johnh]

1 hour ago, tonkaroost said:

Most of us are. Sadly, until Republican supporters get their heads out of their asses then it will continue to happen. It's important in any upcoming elections that Democrats win. While I don't think the Democrats are perfect, they are the lesser of the two evils in our limited two-party system.

The Democrats desperately need an electable candidate and that's not Hillary.  I still hold the view that the Republicans didn''t win, the Democrats lost.

[Sibdane]

26 minutes ago, johnh said:

The Democrats desperately need an electable candidate and that's not Hillary.  I still hold the view that the Republicans didn''t win, the Democrats lost.

I completely agree. We can talk about how bad the Republicans are but there isn'tt any real leadership on the Democratic side. I liked Bernie all right, but even he is a little too far left for some Dems. Hillary had her past going against her (including Bill's here).

We can talk about how much in shambles the Republican party is, but the Democrats may be even worse off. They only thing they can agree on is being anti-Trump.

 

[holystove]

3 hours ago, tonkaroost said:

Most of us are. Sadly, until Republican supporters get their heads out of their asses then it will continue to happen. It's important in any upcoming elections that Democrats win. While I don't think the Democrats are perfect, they are the lesser of the two evils in our limited two-party system.

I don't think, on this, it's OK to just wait for the next elections to try to change this policy of traumatizing children by separating them from the parents and putting them in cages.

This is definitely in "Wir haben es nicht gewusst"-territory.

[Sibdane]

41 minutes ago, holystove said:

I don't think, on this, it's OK to just wait for the next elections to try to change this policy of traumatizing children by separating them from the parents and putting them in cages.

This is definitely in "Wir haben es nicht gewusst"-territory.

No, it's most definitely not okay, but like MJB said, the Republicans control all the branches, and until there is a change in their blind mindset of always sticking by Trump then nothing will change.

[Ghoat]

Everything is not black and white. And simply saying "this wrong, we have to stop now" without have any idea what to do in it's place does nothing but kick the can down the road and make it someone else's problem. 

On my ballot I selected Trump, nothing more or less. So since I'm not an "us", I am a "them" Ergo, a "Trump supporter", a racist, a sexist, a xenophobe, simple-minded, an isolationist, and a sheep that pulls my "Make American Great" hat over my eyes and agrees with everything the President does and says. I'm pretty much what's wrong with America - so I hear anyway. It's a broad brush, it's intellectually lazy and dishonest, but let's just roll with it for now.

I think illegal immigration is huge problem. I think it contributes to a hell of a lot of secondary issues, including placing additional burdens on our legal systems, health care systems as well as civil and social systems which are already over-taxed. "The government" doesn't pay for all that, the government doesn't pay for jack, because it can't.  I, the rest of the American tax payers and US business pay for all that, because the government only "has" money because it takes it from us in the form of taxes. Which isn'tt inherently wrong, that's what government does, always has and always will.

I think we need to stop as much illegal immigration at the border as possible, and if we don't don't deport illegals, what's the point in having the laws in the first place? If they make it in by breaking the law, we reward that?  Just let it go, and expect the rest of us to pay for it and be ok with it? I have a problem with that. So now we have this picture being drawn of Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions gleefully ripping the babies right out of their Momma's arms as they (illegally) try to enter the country. We have all seen the pictures of kids and adults in cages like dogs, due to the inhumane policies of Trump and Sessions. 22,000 I've heard. 1500 kids were lost by the government, allegedly?

So when the illegals are caught, they are sent to jail or a detention facility, what do you do with the kids? You can't put them in jail, no one would advocate that. You have to put them somewhere while you try to find family on either side of the border to put them with. Which means they have to be separated because you simply can't put kids in jail. So do you only jail the ones the don't have kids? That simply ensures that they all will bring kids, even if they are not theirs. What about the adults who are doing this? Do they not bear any responsibility? They know they are breaking the law, they know what will happen if they are caught - do they not bear any responsibility for putting children in danger of being separated? Who's fault is it that the children are with them? If I was a single father and caught drunk driving with my child in the car, or in a stolen car or whatever - should law enforcement let me go, because I have my child with me? If I go to jail, what do they do with my child? Do we selectively enforce the law because a child is present?

My point is, the immigration mess isn'tt simple, and it's not new to this (or the last) administration. Many of our laws and policies were passed under Obama and Clinton with republicans. Just like they were during the Bush administrations with democratic support. Trump is a lightning rod, and the left is losing their minds, but this didn't start in 2016, regardless of how tone-deaf Trump often is. Several of those pictures that circulated were quickly removed when it  was discovered they were 3 or 4 years old. Remember how the right used the picture of Elian Gonzalez hiding in the closest from agents to rip Reno and Clinton for immigration policy? That was just as awful and unfair. Kids generate an emotional response, and both sides often use them as emotional pawns to confuse logical arguments - which is sad. 

 

So now I have established I epitomize everything that's wrong with America because I voted for Trump and  probably sacrifice babies (only minorities tho) on the weekends . Here's what I think as a "Trumpkin". Sometimes there is method to his madness. Sometimes it's just madness and I wish he would STFU. He's not going to "fix" immigration. He's not going to break it either. It's an issue MUCH larger than a president can fix, or destroy even in 2 terms.  The left gives him WAY to much credit to think he can destroy everything in 4 or 8 years. My buddies on the right fringe were telling me for 8 years how Obama was going to destroy us domestically and internationally. Whoever is sworn in next wont be able to do it either, no matter how hard he/she tries. 

I'm not anti-immigrant. My Dad's side came over from England in the 1700's, Mom's side from Ireland in the 1800. I am an immigrant like most all Americans. Our immigration policy is broken, and it needs to overhauled, it is horribly inefficient. There needs to be an fair humanitarian way for people who want to immigrate to the US to do so, and it can't take 8-10 fucking years. We owe that to anyone in the world who wants it, it's who we are and what we were literally built on. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expectations in return. If you hate American, hate our way of life, don't/won't respect our laws, and detest us, why the hell do you want to be here anyway? Canada is nice, France is good, what's wrong with Germany?  Are you just some other county's problem -  a criminal or malcontent that will do far more harm to society than good? Or, do you want try to be a part, at least somewhat, of our society? To have better life and opportunities for yourself and your future generations that you have currently? I don't think it's unfair to ask that, and I don't think it's unfair to know a little bit about who we welcome with open arms. 

And yeah, I think there needs to be a path for citizenship to those that are already here and established. Maybe there are conditions, verifiable employment, no (felony) arrests, X number of years and so forth. Prioritized by time here and with minor children, especially those that are in the public school systems etc. I do NOT advocate uprooting entire families that have been here for an extended period or time, and by all information available, are "good citizens" aside from the fact they came here illegally.

Our existing INS system was not made to handle what we have today, and it's failing everyone. It's so inefficient, I really can't even blame those who have tried to do it the "right way" for years, and finally just say fuck it, and do it the illegal way. It will be hard to fix, because it has to come thru federal system, and be bi-partisan - and it has to be done start to finish in about 2 years, 4 tops, because of House and mid-term elections. There is a lot of money and influence to be made by politicizing fear and racism by both parties, blaming the last/current administration, and doing nothing but making noise to "the base".  Trump/Obama left/right...equally created this mess IMO.

 

Oh and let's not forget, immigration is just the symptom. Here (just like Europe) the problem is people fleeing failing states - crime, violence, drugs, corruptions and everything else that undermines a government and puts it's citizens at risk. Way too many people (IMO) are running AWAY from something vs running TO something. That's a whole different can of worms, but that would help more than anything, but in the mean time we have to play the hand we are delt, and our current immigration system  is only making it worse. And the political climate isn'tt helping.

 

But back to where I started, this isn'tt a simple problem with a simple solution, and it's not simply black/white. The left extreme wants to let everyone in without question and give full citizenship rights. The extreme right wants to deport all illegals and shut the doors. Both of those courses are reckless - even giving lip service to them is reckless.160 characters at a time with a picture  and 30 second soundbites won't fix shit. It just keeps "us" pissed at "them" so we don't have to think - or demand better from our officials.

Anywho, this is a hell of a lot longer than I EVER intended, but I've been plodding away at this all afternoon basically between work, calls, peeking at footy and emails. And yes I know I'm in the minority here as far as side of the isle, so if anything was taken as a personal shot,  please know it was unintentional. I don't take myself too seriously, and if I'm factually wrong on something, I'll admit it and move on wiser. Otherwise, y'alls stupid opinions are worth as much as my dumb ones. Give or take 

 

 

[MikeO]

Interesting alternative perspective that but what I don't understand is this (may be a logical answer). Family arrives at the border from Guatemala and it transpires they have no legal right to enter the US ("Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" aside); why can they not just be turned back as a family rather than being split up and locked up?

[Ghoat]

19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Interesting alternative perspective that but what I don't understand is this (may be a logical answer). Family arrives at the border from Guatemala and it transpires they have no legal right to enter the US ("Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" aside); why can they not just be turned back as a family rather than being split up and locked up?

That I don't honestly know Mike. Assuming in your scenario they are in Mexico at the US border, I would think (meaning I don't know) that they would simply be turned away at the border if they didn't have passports and visas. In which cases they are on Mexican soil, because they couldn't cross - technically they would be subject to Mexico's laws. "Mexico's problem not ours" so to speak. 

I would not think that we could possibly split them up, or detain them at all, because we wouldn't have any legal standing or jurisdiction "in" Mexico. Unless there is some formal agreement between Mexico and the US for the US to have jurisdiction over immigration of non-Mexican citizens on the border, then at that point they would be illegal immigrants in Mexico and under jurisdiction of the Federales - even if they were just in transit. 

If they are caught crossing/discovered or whatever the right word is, on US soil without legal right to enter, then obviously it's US law/policy.  

I hope someone knows, otherwise I'm gonna be searching all kinda shit.

[rubecula]

if they are already caught they must be on US soil or they would not be touched  the Mexicans are usually pretty sensitive about that kind of thing

[pete0]

8 hours ago, MikeO said:

Interesting alternative perspective that but what I don't understand is this (may be a logical answer). Family arrives at the border from Guatemala and it transpires they have no legal right to enter the US ("Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" aside); why can they not just be turned back as a family rather than being split up and locked up?

I'd imagine if they just turned people away without punishment then it'd encourage everyone to try it. They get away with detaining the parents but then are 'stuck' with the children. Wouldn't even surprise me if they then hope the shitty state upbringing leads the kids to go and do cheap labour in prison in the future. 

Whatever reason it is its inhumane. If you you're against immigration then you don't believe in freedom, don't believe in equality. Not exactly traits I'd ever want. 

Strangly given the two options I'd have gone Trump as the lesser of two evils, as far as I'm aware he's killed less children than the last president whereas I'd imagine a career politician like Clinton would have done a lot more damage. Everything trump tried gets blocked whereas Clinton would have been taking backhanders left right and centre doing more damage on a global scale. Fuck knows why they didn't vote Bernie though.