Bill Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just seen this on another site, don't know if there's any creedence "This could be Unseys last match in charge for the u23s, he's taking over the first team on Monday.. NSNO.." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Bill said: Just seen this on another site, don't know if there's any creedence "This could be Unseys last match in charge for the u23s, he's taking over the first team on Monday.. NSNO.." any chance it's Haf's mate who said the same a couple weeks ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: any chance it's Haf's mate who said the same a couple weeks ago? Depends on whether Haf's mate was referring to next Monday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, johnh said: Depends on whether Haf's mate was referring to next Monday? people know he's on the ropes, they;re just trying to be the first to say he goes and are just guessing and hoping to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: people know he's on the ropes, they;re just trying to be the first to say he goes and are just guessing and hoping to be right. we don't earn points for being right MJB. My source was incorrect to the point that the timeline for unsworth taking over has already elapsed... That's not to say that it won't happen. Either way Koeman "MUST GO"..... his position is untenable. No tactics, no passion, falls out with players, drops ones who are doing well and sticks to his favourites - money spent on players who are being shoehorned into roles they are not suited to. If Unsworth comes in we will see a marked uptick in performance - absolutely no doubt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 23 hours ago, rubecula said: Couple of points to mention, Everton usually do give managers a good stint in the job, and almost never rush in to sack a manager. (I said usually because no idea how Moshiri will behave.) You said give Koeman a year? How many years should we give him as he has been in post for more than that already. Finally if the tactics are wrong in every game, who would you blame? it is not a "witch hunt" it is a reasonable doubt on the incumbent manager's ability to move the club in the right direction. Well nobody knows the future so I am willing to accept I may be wrong, I mean like I said we could end up getting relegated! Yeah sure tactics are important but I seriously believe so is a positive and supporting atmosphere. If you boo your own team at half time for example, all you really end up doing is making your own team nervous, and actually fearful of their own crowd which becomes counter productive! Imagine trying to do a job like that, waking up everyday to read how you're a dead man walking with planes literally flying past your head reading 'you suck' ! It would contaminate everything from your staff right down to the players themselves and unfortunately for managers its a very negative consequence of instant/social media. The negativity that can be whipped up within a matter of months, and directed against a manager these days is just astonishing, and in large part it comes from a sometimes toxic relationship between the fans, the media/social media, and the players themselves, with each feeding off, and being influenced by the other. David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were, and are, great players as time would tell them... I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said: great post, please stick around Thanks man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, wolf8312 said: Well nobody knows the future so I am willing to accept I may be wrong, I mean like I said we could end up getting relegated! Yeah sure tactics are important but I seriously believe so is a positive and supporting atmosphere. If you boo your own team at half time for example, all you really end up doing is making your own team nervous, and actually fearful of their own crowd which becomes counter productive! Imagine trying to do a job like that, waking up everyday to read how you're a dead man walking with planes literally flying past your head reading 'you suck' ! It would contaminate everything from your staff right down to the players themselves and unfortunately for managers its a very negative consequence of instant/social media. The negativity that can be whipped up within a matter of months, and directed against a manager these days is just astonishing, and in large part it comes from a sometimes toxic relationship between the fans, the media/social media, and the players themselves, with each feeding off, and being influenced by the other. David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were and are great players... I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess... hmmmm not really.... when a manager comes in and gets rid of a valued backroom staff who have delivered medals galore, sits multi medal winning Rio Ferdinand down and tells him to study Phil Jagielka, then continues to set up a ball playing team to bang in high crosses against teams with 6ft 4 centre halves then I'm afraid there is very little negative influencing required from the other players. SAF had one piece of advice for Moyes - let my backroom staff guide you.... he didn't he got carried away with himself. Koeman has created a rod for his own back - he has alienated players. He has lost the fans, he has lost himself. He has to go, he has only himself to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 32 minutes ago, hafnia said: hmmmm not really.... when a manager comes in and gets rid of a valued backroom staff who have delivered medals galore, sits multi medal winning Rio Ferdinand down and tells him to study Phil Jagielka, then continues to set up a ball playing team to bang in high crosses against teams with 6ft 4 centre halves then I'm afraid there is very little negative influencing required from the other players. SAF had one piece of advice for Moyes - let my backroom staff guide you.... he didn't he got carried away with himself. Koeman has created a rod for his own back - he has alienated players. He has lost the fans, he has lost himself. He has to go, he has only himself to blame. I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well. Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post... Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all. I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost! Ps. When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 24 minutes ago, wolf8312 said: I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well. Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post... Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all. I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost! Ps. When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them? by alienate I mean that he was specifically targeting Barkley for criticism when no other individuals were getting stick...so much so that barkley himself and indeed other people in the media were questioning why he was doing it. Lets be clear - fans don't prove that a manager is poor, he does that all by himself. Fans have different tolerances. Most good managers are able to quickly identify issues within a side - Koeman cant even do this slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 hour ago, hafnia said: we don't earn points for being right MJB. My source was incorrect to the point that the timeline for unsworth taking over has already elapsed... That's not to say that it won't happen. Either way Koeman "MUST GO"..... his position is untenable. No tactics, no passion, falls out with players, drops ones who are doing well and sticks to his favourites - money spent on players who are being shoehorned into roles they are not suited to. If Unsworth comes in we will see a marked uptick in performance - absolutely no doubt about it. could have fooled me Haf, i thought that was your only motivator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 34 minutes ago, wolf8312 said: I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well. Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post... Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all. I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost! Ps. When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them? There is a fine line between giving a manager enough time to succeed, and allowing the club to continue to fail. I don't think there is a set amount of time each manager should be given, I know Kendell always said it took 3 years but I think that's a bit excessive. I would support Koeman staying on but I just can't see any sign that we are going in the right direction, or signs of improvement. I really think he does not know how to get us out of this. Look at him last night, this was a man who was raving at the referee at the end of the match, looked disheveled and at the end of his wits, not exactly the image of a man with a plan and belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, London Blue said: There is a fine line between giving a manager enough time to succeed, and allowing the club to continue to fail. I don't think there is a set amount of time each manager should be given, I know Kendell always said it took 3 years but I think that's a bit excessive. I would support Koeman staying on but I just can't see any sign that we are going in the right direction, or signs of improvement. I really think he does not know how to get us out of this. Look at him last night, this was a man who was raving at the referee at the end of the match, looked disheveled and at the end of his wits, not exactly the image of a man with a plan and belief. Indeed and I dont think the pressure is going to let up either, and so he'll probably continue to unravel. If he's lost the dressing room then I dont see how he will be able to turn it around sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 If Koeman had a plan and stuck to it, even though it wasn't working, we at least could see what he was trying to do. The fact is that he is continually changing things, game to game and first-half to second-half which gives the, not unreasonable, impression of sheer panic. The 'give him time' lobby should consider how the season is going to pan out if he continues with this strategy. Hafnia and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwlad Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I'm not going back to quote all his comments but have to say '''I'm with Haf". Can't understand those who even now say give Koeman time...Why? he's had it and we are going back. Laughing stock of the Prem and after a possible/probable loss on Sunday, in the relegation zone. If that's the case don't see the morale in the squad improving and that's down to the management. Sorry times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 7 hours ago, nogs said: Pickford kept us in it, I remember at least two crucial saves when they were clear through. Him and Vlasic are the only two new signings worth a place in the side. I know you jumped on me when I criticised Klaassen last night, but his selection has to go down as a massive error. In a game we had to win to keep any realistic hopes of staying in Europe alive, why play someone so badly out of form? And to then be hauled off at half time - it just shows Koeman knows he made a mistake. We cannot afford to let these players play themselves back into form in the first team. Not when the likes of Mirallas and Lookman, who haven't been starting, looked two of our best players last night, albeit for a half each. We have to play players on form, which Koeman refuses to do. Keane, Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Sandro and Martina all need a spell in the U23s to find their heads, that's if they can get into a winning side. Well, I jumped on you because your statement was very extreme - "He should fuck off and get out of the club" or something like that. I don't think anyone of the new signings should get out of the club so early after their arrival. They have to prove themselves as truly worthless, something they're doing quite well at the moment, but I believe under different management many of them, especially Klaassen, will flourish. That's all. I agree with everything else you said though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForEverton2 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, wolf8312 said: David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were and are great players as time would tell them... I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess... All well said!! I became an Everton supporter because of David Moyes and how he ran his team. Loads of character from him, the players, and the atmosphere at Goodison. They looked and acted like real fighters at times. Thats what I believed in!!! A fighting squad. But what are we left with now? A shell, something hollowed out. He had a long tenure at Everton which I also respect. I still feel bad for the guy for how he was treated when he moved over to ManU. Absolutely disrespectful. He was in his element at Everton. He should have never had left, and he probably thinks the same thing from time to time. But now his confidence is completely gone. Like you said: the fans, the media, and the players can really turn a managers working environment hostile. We are human after all, but when the stakes are high the margin for error become razor thin. Who in their right mind takes such a job?? haha. I think Koeman deserves more time. Let him ride this out. How can we as supports expect silverware and glory in such a short amount of time. Patience!!! It's hard to watch at times, but the answer is not a new manager. It will only further our discontinuity. We need to be critical of our manager and the squad the he builds up, but that's it. We are still building. Some pieces will not work and that is his fault, it's his job to fix it. Let him do his job for awhile longer at least Edited October 20, 2017 by ForEverton2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwlad Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I'd give him time if he looked like he loved or believed in the club but his touchline demeanour doesn't show any passion when we are down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, ForEverton2 said: All well said!! I became an Everton supporter because of David Moyes and how he ran his team. Loads of character from him, the players, and the atmosphere at Goodison. They looked and acted like real fighters at times. Thats what I believed in!!! A fighting squad. But what are we left with now? A shell, something hollowed out. He had a long tenure at Everton which I also respect. I still feel bad for the guy for how he was treated when he moved over to ManU. Absolutely disrespectful. He was in his element at Everton. He should have never had left, and he probably thinks the same thing from time to time. But now his confidence is completely gone. Like you said: the fans, the media, and the players can really turn a managers working environment hostile. We are human after all, but when the stakes are high the margin for error becomes razor thin. Who in their right mind takes such a job?? haha. I think Koeman deserves more time. Let him ride this out. How can we as supports expect silverware and glory in such a short amount of time. Patience!!! It's hard to watch at times, but the answer is not a new manager. It will only further our discontinuity. We need to be critical of our manager and the squad the he builds up, but that's it. We are still building. Some pieces will not work and that is his fault, it's his job to fix it. Let him do his job for awhile longer at least Exactly! It was a disgrace how Moyes was treated at Man U and I think its probably something that still deeply haunts him because it went beyond football, and was in the end just bullying and persecution. Still when I start feeling sorry for football managers like David Moyes I do have to remind myself that for failing in his job he was awarded 5 million quid! 5 million quid, and I'm feeling sorry for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just now, wolf8312 said: Exactly! It was a disgrace how Moyes was treated at Man U and I think its probably something that still deeply haunts him because it went beyond football, and was in the end just bullying and persecution. Still when I start feeling sorry for football managers like David Moyes I do have to remind myself that for failing in his job he was awarded 5 million quid! 5 million quid, and I'm feeling sorry for him? 5 million quid, but then you have to manage Sunderland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, London Blue said: 5 million quid, but then you have to manage Sunderland True that is pretty brutal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 A poor loss and fans and players in scuffles to add to it, it all adds up to another massive embarrassment for the club. I can't call him a manager because he's not able to manage anything at the moment, but this man must go he's dragging our club into ridicule. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 3 hours ago, wolf8312 said: Well nobody knows the future so I am willing to accept I may be wrong, I mean like I said we could end up getting relegated! Yeah sure tactics are important but I seriously believe so is a positive and supporting atmosphere. If you boo your own team at half time for example, all you really end up doing is making your own team nervous, and actually fearful of their own crowd which becomes counter productive! Imagine trying to do a job like that, waking up everyday to read how you're a dead man walking with planes literally flying past your head reading 'you suck' ! It would contaminate everything from your staff right down to the players themselves and unfortunately for managers its a very negative consequence of instant/social media. The negativity that can be whipped up within a matter of months, and directed against a manager these days is just astonishing, and in large part it comes from a sometimes toxic relationship between the fans, the media/social media, and the players themselves, with each feeding off, and being influenced by the other. David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were and are great players as time would tell them... I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess... well written piece ... Professional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just now, rubecula said: well written piece ... Professional? No I wish! Well I guess I do write as a hobby! rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, wolf8312 said: No I wish! Well I guess I do write as a hobby! It shows through to me. Grammar correct, punctuation seems to be correct, possibly wasted on here, but nice to read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just now, rubecula said: It shows through to me. Grammar correct, punctuation seems to be correct, possibly wasted on here, but nice to read Nah my punctuation sucks and I only know that it sucks, but in many cases probably couldn't tell you why it sucks! I just sprinkle comas around wherever I feel they might be needed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, wolf8312 said: Nah my punctuation sucks and I only know that it sucks, but in many cases probably couldn't tell you why it sucks! I just sprinkle comas around wherever I feel they might be needed! try a few semi colons instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf8312 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just now, rubecula said: try a few semi colons instead? Semi colon... its somewhere near the lower intestine right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 minute ago, wolf8312 said: Semi colon... its somewhere near the lower intestine right? halfway to the colon, I am informed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, rubecula said: It shows through to me. Grammar correct, punctuation seems to be correct, possibly wasted on here, but nice to read Cheeky bastard, ! Fuck aLL rong wiv mozts puncutation on here, Or they're grammah. Or there anything reelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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