Brexit...

[MikeO]

This picture after it was reported that Davis doesn't read briefings or EU position papers because details apparently hinder clarity. At least Olly brought something to take notes with a yellow marker.

 

Davis hadn't yet bought out the fag packet that he had his pocket detailing our "non-negotiables" scribbled on the back. He was well prepared.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2017/feb/20/gb-v-eu-how-the-brexit-negotiating-teams-line-up

[holystove]

actually it should probably be

 

This might make you laugh again:

 

one of the comments under that picture was: "who's the guy in the wizard hat?"

[Bailey]

 

This might make you laugh again:

 

one of the comments under that picture was: "who's the guy in the wizard hat?"

Amazing! ?

[Matt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40772332

[holystove]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40772332

I hope they put the EMA in Strasbourg so the French can finally drop their insistence on the European Parliament travelling there once a month at a ridiculous cost (waste of money). Thats almost half the hole created by the UK no longer paying into the EU budget covered.

[holystove]

This is extraordinary.

 

Half of the pensioners in the UK wouldn't mind if a family member lost their job because of Brexit. The generational divide is immense.

 

[MikeO]

This is extraordinary.

 

And embarrassing.

[Palfy]

If that is true then half the pensioners in this country are fucking wankers.

[Chach]

This quote from an ex Aussie PM sums up a lot of the Brexit talk for me, take out Pauline Hanson and insert Nigel Farage and substitute Europe for Asia and it's still spot on.

Some people really do just want to watch the world burn.

 

[holystove]

 

The UK has been a trading nation throughout its history. 'No expertise in negotiating its own trade deals' is the most naive comment I have ever seen on the internet.

 

The ability to do trade deals is apparently not genetically embedded in the DNA of British citizens by virtue of the UK having been a trading nation throughout its history.

 

The notion itself a bit ridiculous, now the Department of International Trade has released the figures that show there are very few experienced trade negotiators working for the UK government.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/headhunter-splurge-fails-to-deliver-brexit-negotiators-liam-fox-department-of-international-trade-jonathan-fried-crawford-falconer-jeremy-heywood-mvdbtd300?shareToken=292a4f04e5d4f668385561e80efc1dbf

 

- 2,5m £ to educate civil servants on trade policy

- inability to attract international negotiators ("because they don't want to hurt their reputation" - as they don't see how the UK will be doing a lot of succesful deals)

- only 1 major hire, while more than a million spent on headhunters

- ..

 

as stated many times before, I want brexit to be a success, but for that to happen, brexiters should be realistic about their weak position.

[MikeO]

Few weeks old this, but I just heard it referenced on the radio...

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d992b7c0-62fc-11e7-91a7-502f7ee26895

 

Subscription site, transcript.

 

Things are going badly wrong in Brexit-land. The UK government is weak and divided. The EU is confident and uncompromising. The negotiation clock is ticking and only the wilfully deluded now believe that a “cake-and-eat-it” Brexit is on offer. Instead, Britain appears to face a choice between three different types of humiliation.The first humiliating outcome is that Britain becomes so desperate for a trade deal that it is forced to accept the EU’s terms, more or less in their entirety. That will mean that Britain agrees to pay a bill of up to €100bn in gross terms, merely to get trade negotiations going. To then secure access to the single market, Britain would have to make further humbling concessions — accepting free movement of people and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.

An alternative humiliating outcome would involve Britain refusing to make an agreement on these terms and crashing out of the EU without a deal in March 2019. British goods and lorries would then stack up at the Channel ports, as they hit new trade and customs barriers — amid general sniggering on the other side of the channel. Job losses would mount in manufacturing and a range of service industries, from finance to pharma. And as investment was diverted to continental Europe, the economy would take a permanent hit. Each of these results will cause dismay and anger in Britain.

But there is an argument that a dose of national humiliation can be good for a country. A weakened Britain would then turn to Donald Trump’s America, in the hope that the US president would make good on his promise of a “very, very big” trade deal. But the dream of a proud, prosperous, “global Britain” would look like a sick joke.

The third humiliating outcome involves Britain realising that there is no good Brexit on offer and abandoning the whole idea and returning meekly to the EU fold. Even to secure agreement to this outcome from the EU27, Britain might have to give up its cherished budget rebate.Each of these results will cause dismay and anger in Britain. But there is an argument that a dose of national humiliation can be good for a country. The writer Ian Buruma argued recently that British and American politics have become vulnerable to nationalist self-harm because, after the second world war, “generation after generation grew up with . . . the feeling of being special”.All of the other big nations in Europe experienced occupation, defeat, humiliation or the collapse of democracy during the 20th century. By contrast, Britain takes a frank and understandable pride in never succumbing, in its modern history, to political extremism or military defeat.

However Britain’s national pride, viewed from the Brussels perspective, has made the UK an awkward customer that has never accepted the concessions of sovereignty that are necessary to make the EU work. The Eurocrats murmur that if Britain is humbled by Brexit, that might have a positive effect in the long run, persuading the UK eventually to return to the EU with a more realistic assessment of its own power, and of the benefits of the European project.

But is humiliation really good for a country? It is arguable that Britain’s much-prized record of political moderation is connected to the fact that the country has never really been humbled. Angry and confused countries often take refuge in political extremism or aggressive nationalism. The Chinese government has made avenging the country’s “century of humiliation” (which began in 1839) the centre of a nationalist ideology that its neighbours find increasingly threatening. Vladimir Putin’s sense of humiliation at the collapse of the Soviet Union has driven Russian revanchism in Ukraine and Georgia. Going further back, German humiliation, following defeat in the first world war and the punitive terms of the Treaty of Versailles, contributed mightily to the rise of Hitler.But if post-1918 Germany offers a warning about the dangers of national humiliation, post-1945 Germany demonstrates that being humbled can sometimes be good for the soul. Out of the moral and physical ruins of Nazism, the next generation of Germans built a country that is now rich, stable and widely admired.

Fortunately, however badly Brexit goes, it will never be a humiliation to rank alongside responsibility for the Holocaust or occupation by a foreign power. Nonetheless, any of the three possible Brexit humiliations will be a profound blow to national confidence. The resulting public anger is likely to cause a further polarisation in domestic politics. The nationalist right is likely to blame Europeans for allegedly ganging up on Britain and the liberal establishment in the UK for “selling out the country”. The Corbynite left would also stoke anti-establishment anger, and would use the general chaos to push for a massive expansion in the state — and a radical realignment in British foreign and defence policy. That, in turn, would provoke a counter-radicalisation by the right.

But it is also possible to imagine more cheerful scenarios. A country that has made the self-mocking ditty “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life” an alternative national anthem, might have the ability to shrug off a Brexit humiliation. Stereotypes about Britain’s “national character” tend to emphasise pragmatism, a sense of humour and an ability to cope with adversity. The Brits may need all of those qualities to cope with the fallout from Brexit.

gideon.rachman@ft.com

[holystove]

I posted that 3 weeks ago (post number #2510) (johnh appeared to think that article is below the belt)

Edited August 2, 2017 by holystove

[MikeO]

I posted that 3 weeks ago (post number #2510) (johnh appeared to think that article is below the belt)

 

My mistake, must've missed it . I just heard Alex Salmond mention it when I was out in the car earlier so looked it up.

[johnh]

Obviously written by an extremely bitter Remainer. The blockage in UK channel ports would only be exceeded by the blockage in various European ports.

[MikeO]

Obviously written by an extremely bitter Remainer. The blockage in UK channel ports would only be exceeded by the blockage in various European ports.

 

I don't quite understand why "remainers" are described as bitter. In every election/referendum people on the losing side don't suddenly see the light when they realise they're in a minority and jump into line with the winners, they hold to their opinions and values and challenge in opposition. It's democracy, not bitterness.

 

If we'd voted to stay in would you be behind that decision John?

[Bailey]

I think that a failure of both sides to come to an agreement that suits both parties would just show how pathetic both sides are, like a bitter divorce.

 

Both sides need to move on, give a bit, take a bit and get it sorted.

[Chach]

I think that a failure of both sides to come to an agreement that suits both parties would just show how pathetic both sides are, like a bitter divorce.

 

Both sides need to move on, give a bit, take a bit and get it sorted.

 

That's not the way these things work, both sides have to act aggressively in the interests of their own parties its not about being reasonable.

 

To quote Ari Gold, "its show business not show friends"

 

The divorce analogy is poor too, the sides are nothing like even close to being equal the UK needs to come to terms with the fact the empire is over and you're getting your pants pulled down on this one.

[Bailey]

 

That's not the way these things work, both sides have to act aggressively in the interests of their own parties its not about being reasonable.

 

To quote Ari Gold, "its show business not show friends"

 

The divorce analogy is poor too, the sides are nothing like even close to being equal the UK needs to come to terms with the fact the empire is over and you're getting your pants pulled down on this one.

No it doesn't. It's not like we don't know what each side wants. What's the point in action game like dicks when clear communication and compromise will solve most issues.

 

Divorce is accurate, as in my experience both sides are very rarely equal then either!

[Chach]

No it doesn't. It's not like we don't know what each side wants. What's the point in action game like dicks when clear communication and compromise will solve most issues.

 

 

 

Thinking things are this simple is exactly how we got in this predicament, two years to unravel this is not achievable in my opinion.

[MikeO]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/835312/Brexit-news-Alan-Sugar-Brexiteers-should-face-criminal-charges-Boris-Johnson-video

 

Strange source I know.

[Bailey]

 

Thinking things are this simple is exactly how we got in this predicament, two years to unravel this is not achievable in my opinion.

 

Dont get me wrong I know the issues behind each point are extremely complicated but the truth is that on the majority of things each side will want more or less the same thing. Logistically, two years isnt enough but 10 years isnt going to be enough to get the basics sorted if they carry on like they are now.

[Chach]

 

Dont get me wrong I know the issues behind each point are extremely complicated but the truth is that on the majority of things each side will want more or less the same thing. Logistically, two years isnt enough but 10 years isnt going to be enough to get the basics sorted if they carry on like they are now.

 

Yeah, on reflection the bitter divorce analogy is probably right.

[rubecula]

Alan Sugar has it arse about face really as more people are brexiteers than remainers. However, it is wrong to put any honest group on trial no matter which way you voted.

[MikeO]

Alan Sugar has it arse about face really as more people are brexiteers than remainers. However, it is wrong to put any honest group on trial no matter which way you voted.

 

He doesn't suggest voters should be on trial, just politicians.

 

If someone, in a general election, drove around in a bus with "Vote for us and we'll give you an extra £100 a month" probably a lot of people would vote for them. If they then won and said, "...well actually we didn't mean it..." people might wish they'd voted differently.

 

More people were Brexiteers on a given day certainly but his point is how many of them would not have been had they realised the NHS pledge was a lie?

[Bailey]

 

He doesn't suggest voters should be on trial, just politicians.

 

If someone, in a general election, drove around in a bus with "Vote for us and we'll give you an extra £100 a month" probably a lot of people would vote for them. If they then won and said, "...well actually we didn't mean it..." people might wish they'd voted differently.

 

More people were Brexiteers on a given day certainly but his point is how many of them would not have been had they realised the NHS pledge was a lie?

Or the if we are out of the EU we will be more susceptible to terrorism lie too.?

[MikeO]

Or the if we are out of the EU we will be more susceptible to terrorism lie too.

 

Intangible that, don't recall it being on the side of a bus.

[EFC-Paul]

Mike I fully agree the NHS bus malarkey was a farce but it's one that's been/being beaten to death now by the remain side

 

We could pull up a multitude of lies and broken promises from any campaign from all sides

[johnh]

Mike I fully agree the NHS bus malarkey was a farce but it's one that's been/being beaten to death now by the remain side

 

We could pull up a multitude of lies and broken promises from any campaign from all sides

 

Yes, just ask the university students and their parents who thought they were voting for a cancellation of tuition fees and debt in the general election.

[MikeO]

 

Yes, just ask the university students and their parents who thought they were voting for a cancellation of tuition fees and debt in the general election.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-student-loans-debt-manifesto-pledge-amnesty-cancel-tuition-fees-a7856161.html

[johnh]

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-student-loans-debt-manifesto-pledge-amnesty-cancel-tuition-fees-a7856161.html

 

Pity he didn't clarify it at the time.