Hafnia Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 I will concede that there aren't many better finishers in the league than Rom. But I will reaffirm there aren't many footballers as lazy or lacking in fundamentals as him. It all comes down to what I believe is critical for us to improve as a team. Lukaku is a burden worth carrying for some- not for me by a fair stretch. Maybe my obsession has enabled me to watch and conclude what happens as a result of his deficiencies. They really really are costly. Not always resulting in conceding but nearly always resulting in our team being caught so badly out of shape due to him messing up the transition phase of play. Troy deeney should not be sale to be mentioned in the same breath as Rom... but he is because of his application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Haf isn't saying that Feeneys transfer fee should be double that of Lukaku's or is more important than him. He has just given a simple example of a player being a better footballer than him. I,ll also give you one, Alex Young was one of the best footballers I ever seen in a blue shirt, beautiful to watch and probably averaged 15 goals a season, Roy Vernon who played alongside him was not half the footballer as Alex but he would average 25 goals a season. All he's saying is that the player who scores most goals is not necessarily the better footballer. I can't believe people can't grasp that, it not rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Haf isn't saying that Feeneys transfer fee should be double that of Lukaku's or is more important than him. He has just given a simple example of a player being a better footballer than him. I,ll also give you one, Alex Young was one of the best footballers I ever seen in a blue shirt, beautiful to watch and probably averaged 15 goals a season, Roy Vernon who played alongside him was not half the footballer as Alex but he would average 25 goals a season. All he's saying is that the player who scores most goals is not necessarily the better footballer. I can't believe people can't grasp that, it not rocket science. Nobodys not grasping anything . Regardless of goals scored Lukaku is a better footballer than Troy Deeney full stop. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Your not grasping a simple example Pad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Your not grasping a simple example Pad. Bill, I think it's you who's not grasping it mate. There's no example or comparison. Lukaku is head and shoulders above Deeney n every department. There is no comparison and I guarantee nobody would have Deeney in their side over Lukaku because he is simply better. You can't use it as a comparison because it's laughable to suggest just because he bursts a gut every week he is in the same league as Lukaku. A few have even said Deeney is a better player than him. Tell me what it is I'm missing Bill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 In fact don't bother, I can't believe I let myself get dragged back into this nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 I'd be interested if those who think Deeney is better watches him 90mins a game all season long. If you do, I'll have to just keep quiet, but if not, well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 He's head and shoulders above him as a goalscorer, not as a footballer. Did you even read my example ? In essence you are saying Roy Vernon was a better footballer than Alex Young. Need i say more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 He's head and shoulders above him as a goalscorer, not as a footballer. Did you even read my example ? In essence you are saying Roy Vernon was a better footballer than Alex Young. Need i say more. Bill he is better than him full stop mate not just because he scores more that's the bit you're not getting. Troy fucking Deeney is a better footballer than Lukaku. I've literally heard it all now. I'm going to leave this here as I swore I'd stay out of this thread because it's like groundhog day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 There's a difference between a goalscorer and a good footballer. I give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 I'm certainly not saying Deemey is a better player. (Deeney is a poor example btw but it sort of fits). What I'm saying is Deeney does the basics better than Rom. I.e trapping a ball, holding up play etc, etc. You could say he has a better understanding with the players around him to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 From what I have seen, deeney is a harder working player, better in the air and stronger at holding the ball up. Is that fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Any manager would say the hardest type of player to find is one who can put the ball in the net on a regular basis. There are loads of Deeney type strikers out there, that will run all day for the team, it looks good on the eye and the stats for the amount of ground covered, but they can't do what they were brought in to the team to do which is put the ball in the net regularly. To me that makes Lukaku a better player as a striker than Deeney hands down, because he scores goals which is the most important thing you would want from your striker statistically. The only way you can disagree with this, is if you believe that scoring goals isn't the most important asset a striker should have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Again.... there is no ridiculous ruling that says your striker can either be a good hard working all rounder or a goalscorer. The majority of strikers in the league all put in a shift nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 But that's what recent years have brought us Everton fans down to. We believe we are lucky to have a player can score goals and don't believe we have the right to have a player that can be both. Just to point out though, there is a decent in between type. It doesn't have to either Deeney, Lukaku or Suarez...or hard worker, lazy but scores, or worldwide! We can mould Lukaku into an average working good goalscorer. And that, I would be more than happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Again.... there is no ridiculous ruling that says your striker can either be a good hard working all rounder or a goalscorer. The majority of strikers in the league all put in a shift nowadays. not saying there is mate, I just prefer my striker to concentrate on goal scoring and expect the midfield to be the one putting the work in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Haf I wouldn't argue with you the majority of strikers in the league do put in a shift, but don't score enough goals, then you have a very small minority that do both the likes of Costa and Aguero, be honest with me when I say that they are out of our league even if Moshiri said here's 100M go and get Costa, he wouldn't sign for us. The only way we are going to get a player like that in the foreseeable future is mould one, in the same way as Wenger did with Henry. Shukes your right as well it does appear that as a club we have had a lot of strikers that don't score, mainly because we never had the funds to buy in a proven goal scorer, so the next best thing was to look for players that would work hard to make up for the fact you weren't going to get a good goal return. Now we have a player the first for years that knows where the net is, and your not happy with him because he doesn't cover as much ground as Deeney, I for one would take the goals over the miles, if before he came here he had it all in his locker then he wouldn't be here, would have been at City, Utd, Arsenal, the shite or still at Chelsea, that is I'm afraid is the reality this club has to deal with at this moment in time. And Shukes what you said about moulding him into a player that works as well is slowly starting to happen, his last two performances are heading in the right direction, but the sooner he becomes the player we want him to be the sooner he will be gone, then your get your Deeney and we will be moaning that he doesn't score goals, and some will be defending him because he puts a shift in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Palfy... once upon a time I measured strikers on goals alone till I played off a lad who wasn't a great finisher but a bloody good player. He was at Everton as a youth player and was quite possibly the most accomplished player i played with. There was another lad in our team who played for Chester f.c having set all sorts of non league goals scoring records and for me he wasn't a patch on the lad who was released from everton. It's fair to say we had a good side. A fair few players were getting paid on a Saturday but played for my Sunday League team. The lad from everton had a touch like velcro... the ball stuck to him. He also put in a shift. When he played the team scored goals.... loads of them. We hit him in the channels, off the centre halves and 2 full backs would overlap and 2 midfielders advance. We literally had 5 different players scoring goals. Thd lad who went on to play at chester was a talent, a great finisher and would get 2 goals most games but we missed the first lad before him by a country mile. A big learning for me was that. We conceded loads more goals when velcro didn't play as we couldn't retain the ball anywhere near as good up front. When you pay £28m for a striker which was the equivalent of £45m now then hard work and the ability to hold the ball up isn't some sort of bonus.... you expect it. It's fair to say that if the lad at Everton was a better finisher he would have been a championship level player. If the lad who went to Chester worked he also could have been a championship player. What's the difference between a player who has talent and works vs talent and doesn't work? It's this lad here..... a few years after this goal he was playing midfield behind me as a deep playmaker on a Saturday afternoon.... ridiculous ability but wouldn't run. Edited December 19, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 There's a difference between a goalscorer and a good footballer. I give up. Deeney isn't a good footballer!! Jesus Bill how hard is that to work out?? If you're going to compare him compare him to someone who is actually good and not a yard dog hard working centre foward. What makes me really laugh is most of the people slating Lukaku don't watch him in the flesh week in week out they watch on TV where the camera follows the ball not the player so they don't get a true indication of how hard he works at times. Now before it's jumped on this isn't a dig at peoplee who don't go or an "I go so I know better" jibe it's really not and part of the reason I've not said it before is because that's how it'll be perceived but it's a relevant point. You get a better picture of a player watching them in real time. Yes he has his flaws, no he's not perfect but hs ours and by far the best goal scorer we've had since Linaker yet some people here are comparing him to Troy Deeneybof all people just because he runs more when it's painfully obvious he runs more to make up for a lack of natuaral ability so you could argue that Lukaku still scores more without even trying ( he does try obviously but by some of the comments here you'd think ge never) Some of the critisism levelled at the lad in this thread is absolutely scandalous, and we wont get a replacement for him of the same quality because players of his standard don't sign for mid table premier league teams. Be thankful we have him and enjoy him for as long as it lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 I don't think many people are actually comparing him to Deeney pad, just popping bring out that Deeney is better than Lukaku in some aspects. If it became a choice between the two, I would obviously keep Rom. My point is more that if Rom could up hos work rate a little then it would make him twice the player and also help the team more. I see no point in having a golden boot winner and finishing tenth or below. I would much rather finish higher and have all round scorers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Using deeney as an example of someone who can offer more to the team than someone like Rom is like someone making the case for a ford focus RS being a better car than a BMW m series. On the surface you look at it and laugh.... but when you cut to what ford have done with their package you end up thinking "bang for buck the Ford looks a better option" Yeah you would sooner go for the M series but you will be thinking "why the fuck can't BMW do the little things well?" Why is the m series unreliable - great when it's running well but that's it. The focus you know what you get.... boringly effective. Rom has the x factor....fair enough but we don't see it enough. For me Rom will be a player who you will always wonder "what if"... deeney gets 100% out of what he has to offer. Lukaku has missed the boat on a lot of technical development and just doesnt have the hunger to bully and use his immense athleticism to the max. Pity. Deeney shouldn't even be comparable to Rom but he is because of the difference in attitude and application. Edited December 19, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 No mate, to you he is comparable. 95% of fans wouldn't entertain there being any comparison. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) No mate, to you he is comparable. 95% of fans wouldn't entertain there being any comparison. Agreed, if there are Watford fans reading this, I guess they'd be pissing themselves laughing or biting our hands off for a trade... Edited December 19, 2016 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Natural goal scorers are hard to come by, look at City last night, Agueros not playing so rather than go with a lesser talented striker who the manager most have doubts about scoring they go with 3 forward thinking midfielders up front, which got the desired result. When Lukaku leaves at the end of the season we won't be able to replace his natural instinct to score goals, with the likes of Deeny,Rondon,Long and Austin they just don't cut it. So maybe the way forward could be 3 goal scoring midfielders who can work well as a unit similar to what we saw last night, and forget all about trying to find an orthodox striker. And please can we stop saying that any of the above which I mentioned are better than Lukaku, there was a time when you would have been put in a asylum for being thought as crazy for them believes, let's just all agree that they are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 No mate, to you he is comparable. 95% of fans wouldn't entertain there being any comparison. We actually don't know that. For me lukaku splits the fan Base. I've never known a player to score goals at a level he does yet attract so much criticism.... that's not just me. It goes to show that not all fans see goals as the be all and end all. Either side of the fences stance flabbergasts the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Anyway.. nothing would please me more than watching him stick 5 past the bastards in an Ian rush style battering Yeah I'd get loads of stick but I don't care... I love Everton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Agreed, if there are Watford fans reading this, I guess they'd be pissing themselves laughing or biting our hands off for a trade... I'm absolutely blown away that people , let alone our own fans can talk about Deeney being anything better than Lukaku in a serious discussion. It's utterly ludicrous. Lukaku is what he is and we'll have to learn to love him for what he is but how anyone can turn their nose up to a player like him when you're finishing 11th in the league utterly dumbfounds me it really does. I'm getting out of this thread now because it drives me to distraction. My own fault for being drawn in again though ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Again Pad, I don't think anyone is saying Deeney is better. Even Haf is only saying that parts of Deeneys football make-up is better than Lukakus. For example his control seems better from the little I have saw of him, As is his ability in the air. He definitely has a higher work rate. He also seems a lot more consistent in holding the ball up, you saw that against us. But Rom can shoot better, Run faster, Dribble better, I would also argue that Rom has a better passing range, which seems to go unnoticed a lot of time. Does it make him more valuable and a better player? In my opinion, yes it does. Done sit make him a better football technically? In my opinion, no. But again....don't mistake my opinion for wanting Deeney over Lukaku haha! Edited December 19, 2016 by Shukes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Again Pad, I don't think anyone is saying Deeney is better. Even Had is only saying that parents a of Deeneys football make-up is better than Lukakus. For example his control seems better from the little I have saw of him, As is his ability in the air. He definitely has a higher work rate. He also seems a lot more consistent in holding the ball up, you saw tha against us. But Rom can shoot better, Run faster, Dribble better, I would also argue that Rom has a better passing range, which seems to go unnoticed a lot of time. Does it make him more valuable and a better player? In my opinion, yes it does. Done sit make him a better football technically? In my opinion, no. But again....don't mistake my opinion for wanting Deeney over Lukaku haha! good post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shy_Talk Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Shame Lukaku couldnt get on the end of the flick ons and lay offs he managed last night...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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