US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[Cornish Steve]

The fundamental issue raised by Donald Trump is whether any means can justify an end. I have plenty of friends who believe that the thriving stock market and the possibility that abortion might be banned justifies supporting an immoral, narcissistic liar. I cannot agree, however. For me, a person's character is more important than their policies.

[Palfy]

31 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

The fundamental issue raised by Donald Trump is whether any means can justify an end. I have plenty of friends who believe that the thriving stock market and the possibility that abortion might be banned justifies supporting an immoral, narcissistic liar. I cannot agree, however. For me, a person's character is more important than their policies.

And if there policies and beliefs are equally as bad as their character then you have a Donald Trump in the making. 
Purely out of interest if someone was condoning Trump as a good leader and making a case for his policies and actions, would you feel compelled to challenge their argument or just ignore it.  

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

And if there policies and beliefs are equally as bad as their character then you have a Donald Trump in the making. 
Purely out of interest if someone was condoning Trump as a good leader and making a case for his policies and actions, would you feel compelled to challenge their argument or just ignore it.  

I challenge it - every day. Given his increasingly cult-like status, it's cost me more than a couple of friends. So be it.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

If I apply your own argument back at you. Wrt USA you are just an outside observer with no vote so why do you feel entitled to comment on the leader of a country that you have no association with, yet presume to tell a British citizen that he should offer no opinion on what is happening in his own country?

Incongruous, to say the very least.

Personally, I am in favour of free speech, whether I agree with it or not.

It would appear, though, that the EU does not share the same liberal views.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

Oh dear I’ve obviously hit a raw nerve, it’s not my fault you never got a vote on the EU referendum yet you love to crow your a winner, and the people on here who voted to remain you took great pleasure branding them as losers.  
Also it’s not my fault you don’t get a vote in the General Election, yet you claim your a winner of that as well, have you never heard the phrase you need to be in it to win it, and you weren’t. 
Now you look after your British passport you never know you might need to come scuttling back here with your tail between your legs one day. 
I sincerely hope not for everyone’s sake. 

[Chach]

12 hours ago, RPG said:

Another misunderstanding by the anti brexit brigade. All brexiteers I know are not anti immigration at all. They are anti uncontrolled immigration. Big, big difference. Moving to a points based 'Australia style' system is just fine. I have experienced exactly that style of immigration myself during periods of expat work (or temporary immigration if you prefer the term) in three separate countries over a 24 year period. In each country my right to remain resident was tied to my keeping my job, and either I or my company had to pay for very expensive PHI for myself and my family so that neither I nor my family were ever a financial drain on the host country. We also have to behave. If I am sent to jail for any reason then I serve the sentence followed by immediate deportation.

It is a system that works well. It is lucrative for the expat and allows the host country to keep control of its population base. All you have to do is work hard, respect indigenous culture and obey the law. Is it really too much to expect exactly the same from those who try to move to UK?

So, to answer your questions in your last sentence;

Immigration continuing is fine provided we have more control over it and concentrate on immigrants who will be an asset to our country, agree to assimmilate and will not be a drain on our limited resources.

All indications re post brexit economy are far more positive than you suggest.

The Tory party are never going to be Labour 2.0 but I think I know where you are coming from with that comment and the levelling of the playing field between north and south and committed expenditure to NHS, police, Armed Forces etc can only be a good thing, irrespective of left or right, can't it.

You absolutely swerved the key part of the post where no one gave a toss about any of the things you keep claiming Brexit is about.

Immigration will continue because both sides of politics understand it's a key driver of economic growth and diversity and creativity in an economy.

A points based system is going to do nothing to alleviate the concerns of people that feel their communities are changing quicker than they would like, at least with a points based system there will be some truth to the claims "they are coming and taking our jobs" because only skilled/qualified people will be coming and they will be.

My experience of living in a points based system is all the concern about the levels of migration get projected onto very small vulnerable sections of society like asylum seekers.

[Chach]

16 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

The fundamental issue raised by Donald Trump is whether any means can justify an end. I have plenty of friends who believe that the thriving stock market and the possibility that abortion might be banned justifies supporting an immoral, narcissistic liar. I cannot agree, however. For me, a person's character is more important than their policies.

I'm sorry Steve but this is the kind of virtue signalling post that have our conservative friends levelling claims that the Off Topic forum is a liberal echo chamber, you've said nothing there other than that you consider your morals to be greater than others, to the point you also say you are losing real life friends over it?

That is how the left will continue to lose, in politics I am fairly sure a large proportion of the electorate hold their nose and vote for what they see as the lesser of two evils and conservatives have just as much right to do that as anyone else.

[Cornish Steve]

15 hours ago, Chach said:

I'm sorry Steve but this is the kind of virtue signalling post that have our conservative friends levelling claims that the Off Topic forum is a liberal echo chamber, you've said nothing there other than that you consider your morals to be greater than others, to the point you also say you are losing real life friends over it?

That is how the left will continue to lose, in politics I am fairly sure a large proportion of the electorate hold their nose and vote for what they see as the lesser of two evils and conservatives have just as much right to do that as anyone else.

That's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I've always been more of an idealist than a pragmatist. It's not that I claim to have superior morals or anything like that: I'm suggesting that the journey can be more important than the destination. How can a less compassionate leader result in a more compassionate society? How can a leader who mocks and ignores the law lead to a more just society? How can a war-monger lead to greater peace among nations? How can an intolerant narcissist encourage society to be more tolerant and inclusive? I just don't see it.

[Chach]

6 hours ago, RPG said:

My understanding is that genuine asylum seekers (as opposed to economic migrants chasing free welfare) will not have their situation changed at all - apart from possibly for the better due reduced demand on the system elsewhere allowing for more resources to be focussed on their needs.

Wrt your first para and your list; Economy came in first (I commented that it will improve post brexit), Immigration was second on your list (I commented about the points based system being an improvement) and NHS was third on your list (I commented about huge increase in post brexit spending on NHS under Johnson). So, your argument that 'noone gives a toss about what I think brexit is about' (GE19 was a second referendum by proxy) tends to unravel a bit as it actually covers the top 3 items on your own list.

There are other things of course. But if you don't believe in sovereignty and are unable or unwilling to differentiate between nationalism and patriotism then there is no point in debating those issues with you.

I sincerely believe that life in UK will be better post brexit. Others do not. That is fine. Neither of us is likely to convince the other. All I can suggest is that it would be much easier all round if those that do not agree with brexit could at least accept it is happening. We have already lost over 3 years due to dirty, underhand manoeuvres and it is, imho, time for everyone to accept the reality and embrace brexit if you welcome it or to make the best of it if you don't.

Either way, it is happening.

You are literally just rambling incoherently now in the hope somewhere you accidentally address an argument.

All the modelling shows a reduction in GDP, with the economy being 6% smaller in 2030 than it would have been in the EU, if the reduction in GDP is a solitary 1% public finances will be no better off that if they had stayed in the EU.

The economy will still grow over that time though and you will claim Brexit a roaring success!

Net immigration will continue to increase as the birthrate continues to fall, the jobs will go to the smartest, most educated and hardest working people and those people will not necessarily be indigenous to the Albion of your youth.

Life will not be discernibly better and after the union breaks up and England's political clout recedes further and all the people who thought Brexit would put the globalist genie back in the bottle are either dead or in some final irony have scarpered on a retirement visa to Spain, those left will hold another referendum to Rejoin.

This is a blip, more cooperation and more union is the only answer in a modern world that has problems that do not have a national solution.

 

 

[Chach]

3 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

That's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I've always been more of an idealist than a pragmatist. It's not that I claim to have superior morals or anything like that: I'm suggesting that the journey can be more important than the destination. How can a less compassionate leader result in a more compassionate society? How can a leader who mocks and ignores the law lead to a more just society? How can a war-monger lead to greater peace among nations? How can an intolerant narcissist encourage society to be more intolerant and inclusive? I just don't see it.

Thats why beating Trump has to be the priority, he's not even a conservative so it should be easy if you can nominate a candidate who can speak to middle America, isn't woke enough to get drawn into the fringe of the culture wars issues and who is young enough to not die during the campaign.

For some reason that seems like a bridge too far. The best candidate is a married gay man.

 

 

 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

For some reason that seems like a bridge too far. The best candidate is a married gay man.

Pete Buttigieg then?

[Palfy]

11 hours ago, RPG said:

Either way, it is happening.

Great your jobs done mission achieved, now do us all a favour and fuck off. 

[Chach]

On 18/01/2020 at 20:48, StevO said:

Pete Buttigieg then?

I did this WaPo quiz and turns out I agree with Yang's policies the most (14 out of 20), Mayor Peter second (Sanders and Gabbard last with 7/20 a piece)

Interested to see what others get.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

 

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, Chach said:

I did this WaPo quiz and turns out I agree with Yang's policies the most (14 out of 20), Mayor Peter second (Sanders and Gabbard last with 7/20 a piece)

Interested to see what others get.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

 

[Chach]

@MikeO how does that jive with what you thought before taking the test?

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, Chach said:

@MikeO how does that jive with what you thought before taking the test?

I didn't really have much idea about any of them to be honest, not really been enervated by it; the only thing that surprises me is that Sanders is so low. From the little I know about him, based mostly on what's been posted on here, I thought I was politically pretty aligned with him but it seems not.

[Chach]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

I didn't really have much idea about any of them to be honest, not really been enervated by it; the only thing that surprises me is that Sanders is so low. From the little I know about him, based mostly on what's been posted on here, I thought I was politically pretty aligned with him but it seems not.

Yeah same, I wouldn't have picked me putting him last.

[markjazzbassist]

I got sanders then warren, no surprise for me.

 

they hold the gun thing against Bernie but people forget he’s in a very rural state so his views on guns are different than more urbane candidates.

[Palfy]

I got Bloomberg 10 and Biden 9, none of which makes much sense to me. 
Besides being a dick which I know before anyone says, am I more of a Democrat or Republican honest answers only please. 

[Sibdane]

5 hours ago, Chach said:

I did this WaPo quiz and turns out I agree with Yang's policies the most (14 out of 20), Mayor Peter second (Sanders and Gabbard last with 7/20 a piece)

Interested to see what others get.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

 

I had Yang as well, but I'm not surprised. I've been a fan of his, and he's actually my first choice even though I doubt he'll come close to getting the nomination. 

Also had Buttigieg/Biden close second at 10/20.

Edit: I had Sanders last with 6/20 and Warren/Gabbard second last at 7/20. I'm kind of surprised by that.

 

[markjazzbassist]

21 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I got Bloomberg 10 and Biden 9, none of which makes much sense to me. 
Besides being a dick which I know before anyone says, am I more of a Democrat or Republican honest answers only please. 

bloomberg is a rich guy, so are you.  shoe fits   i think you are a lefty Palfy, i would say you are more left than democrats are (obama was pretty centrist), so a Sanders or Green party might be more your thing.  But the green party here is non existent, just Dems and Repubs sadly, so you're a dem.

 

the thing is the questions are put in a way where you they are kinda the outlier opinion of most of these candidates.  universal income is only yang, but it gives you yes or no, most would say yes, that's a Yang and no for everyone else.  It's a more nuanced issue than that.  

 

But overall fun quiz, thanks for posting.

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

bloomberg is a rich guy, so are you.  shoe fits   i think you are a lefty Palfy, i would say you are more left than democrats are (obama was pretty centrist), so a Sanders or Green party might be more your thing.  But the green party here is non existent, just Dems and Repubs sadly, so you're a dem.

 

the thing is the questions are put in a way where you they are kinda the outlier opinion of most of these candidates.  universal income is only yang, but it gives you yes or no, most would say yes, that's a Yang and no for everyone else.  It's a more nuanced issue than that.  

 

But overall fun quiz, thanks for posting.

Thanks mate I feel pleased  that my political views as a left of centre person are the same in America as here, it’s good to be Democrat I can recommend it to all republicans. 

[Chach]

13 hours ago, Sibdane said:

I had Yang as well, but I'm not surprised. I've been a fan of his, and he's actually my first choice even though I doubt he'll come close to getting the nomination. 

Also had Buttigieg/Biden close second at 10/20.

Edit: I had Sanders last with 6/20 and Warren/Gabbard second last at 7/20. I'm kind of surprised by that.

 

We're must be quite politically aligned then, so on that basis (if you're not already familiar) I recommend this podcast which I can't get enough off  Outstanding guests and analysis. He's a German political scientist but based in US.

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-good-fight/id1198765424

 

 

 

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51231047
good to see it’s being taken seriously

[MikeO]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/23/politics/fact-check-trump-false-impeachment-wednesday/index.html?utm_content=2020-01-25T12%3A46%3A05&utm_medium=social&utm_term=link&utm_source=twCNN

[Chach]

Why Democrats Still Have to Appeal to the Center, but Republicans Don’t 

Polarization has changed the two parties — just not in the same way.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/24/opinion/sunday/democrats-republicans-polarization.html

[Chach]

Bloomberg slips into 3rd.

One thing I like about this guy is he makes Trump look like a pauper which is what Trump is uber sensitive about.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-democrats-poll/movin-on-up-bloomberg-glides-past-warren-to-no-3-in-democratic-race-reuters-ipsos-idUSKBN1ZT30A

[Matt]

Apparently part of the wall got toppled by high winds (which is encouraging!) and they’ve also found a really sophisticated tunnel recently. These pieces of news made me happy. 

[markjazzbassist]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Apparently part of the wall got toppled by high winds (which is encouraging!) and they’ve also found a really sophisticated tunnel recently. These pieces of news made me happy. 

it was always going to be.  a wall will stop nothing and has stopped nothing.  you need to go to the heart of the issue which is US/European influence in latin america dating back to bolivar.

[Sibdane]

8 hours ago, Chach said:

Bloomberg slips into 3rd.

One thing I like about this guy is he makes Trump look like a pauper which is what Trump is uber sensitive about.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-democrats-poll/movin-on-up-bloomberg-glides-past-warren-to-no-3-in-democratic-race-reuters-ipsos-idUSKBN1ZT30A

He has grown insanely fast the last few weeks. I'm seeing his ads everywhere (youtube, TV, etc.). He's a bit more center so not surprised he's getting some of the independents. From what I know of him he seems to have done a good job when mayor of New York City. 

Also, I just read where he's worth almost $61 billion. Trump must absolutely hate that. 

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Sibdane said:

He has grown insanely fast the last few weeks. I'm seeing his ads everywhere (youtube, TV, etc.). He's a bit more center so not surprised he's getting some of the independents. From what I know of him he seems to have done a good job when mayor of New York City. 

Also, I just read where he's worth almost $61 billion. Trump must absolutely hate that. 

He’s worth more than U.K.