Brexit...

[MikeO]

12 hours ago, RPG said:

I like the quote from Churchill:

'Democracy is a terrible way to run a country - until you consider the alternatives!'

But do you like his views on representative democracy and referenda? I suspect not (from the International Churchill society site)..

"Churchill was a democrat, but with qualifications and reservations. He always emphasised that British government was based on representative, not direct, democracy. Parliament, rather than elections, had the primary place in Churchill’s democratic order. Elections exist for the sake of the House of Commons and not the other way round, he once said, and he described himself revealingly as a servant of the House of Commons, not a servant of the people. In 1911 he denounced the referendum as a dangerous device and subversive of parliamentary government..."

Also I've quoted this before but if we're going down the Churchill route I'll see you and raise you (even though the quote you used was prefaced by "Indeed it has been said that...." so not really one of his own)....

"The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there is no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

[pete0]

17 minutes ago, RPG said:

No issue with anything you quoted there but lets look at this in practice. Those quotes came from a time when Great Britain was governed by Great Britain and not Brussels. The fact of the matter is that over 90 Labour MPs, representing Leave constituencies have done everything in their power to block brexit. How do you think that will play out in the forthcoming General Election and what effect do you think that will have on independent, post Brexit UK's future relationship with EU?

I would also question the personal integrity of many of the MP's who advocate Remain. I do not believe that they are acting in a manner they believe to be best for UK but, rather, in a manner that they believe is best for themselves. The EU tentacles run deep into the UK governing classes.

Another Churchill quote to finish with:

'If we must ever choose between Europe and the Open Seas, we must choose the Open Seas every time!

https://images.app.goo.gl/EcCrFRJgZynvpNkb7

Those constituencies could force a by-election, they only need 10% of the voters to call for it. So far Conservatives lost a brexit seat to the lib dems through this method. So I can imagine the 90 Labour MPs being more worried about the LibDems than the nasty party. 

[pete0]

16 minutes ago, RPG said:

I agree that most of those Labour seats will not be lost to the Conservative Party. I never suggested they would. Rather, the 90 seats in the north will be lost to the Brexit Party, with the seats in the south going to the Lib Dems. Either way, the next General Election will be a train wreck for Labour.

It's telling that you don't live in this country. Not in a million years will brexit party win a seat in Liverpool. Lib dems might but not with the current tory infection. 

[MikeO]

7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Those quotes came from a time when Great Britain was governed by Great Britain and not Brussels.

Spreading the misconception that we're "governed" by Brussels, we're not.....certainly not as comprehensively as your unequivocal statement (could have been taken from a Daily Express editorial) suggests.

Discussed here with an interesting final sentence...

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/how-much-our-law-made-brussels

"We may be British, but it’s time to stop counting major acts of parliament, such as the restructuring of the NHS, as equal to a ruling on the ingredients of a Cornish pasty."

Another snippet I found..

'Some have taken a few comments scattered across the decades of his work and tried to argue that Churchill would have been a Eurosceptic. Reading [his] set-piece speeches – dramatic and graphic as they are – quickly gave the lie to such suggestions. Former Prime Minister Edward Heath delivered the most powerful rebuttal in 1996 “I knew Winston Churchill, I worked with him, I stayed with him at his home at Chartwell and I have read his speeches many times. I can assure you that Winston Churchill was no Euro-sceptic.”'

Different eras as you rightly point out.

The fundamental difference between us seems to be that I think the World would be a better, fairer more peaceful place with more integration and you want to see the UK prosper even if that comes at the expense of other countries. You'd allow in people with enough "points" and then pull up the drawbridge and hang a banner on it saying, "we're alright thanks come back when you have a degree in astrophysics". Obviously I exaggerate to make my point but that's the impression you give, and I think it's very sad that some people grade human beings on where they're born and/or their "worth" to a society.

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Maybe not quite 'governed' by Brussels now but certainly regulated by. And Kenneth Clark, no less, is on record as saying that he looks forward to the day when the House of Commons is no more than a council chamber in a district of EU.

The trend vector is what is alarming and I am delighted that it is about to be reversed.

And Kenneth Clark my little facist is a stone wall Tory not a far left Corbyn sympathiser a middle ground Tory with decades of service for the party, yet you mock him because he’s not a far right neo nazi shame on you

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Maybe not quite 'governed' by Brussels now but certainly regulated by. And Kenneth Clark, no less, is on record as saying that he looks forward to the day when the House of Commons is no more than a council chamber in a district of EU.

The trend vector is what is alarming and I am delighted that it is about to be reversed.

So not what you said then; same as the referendum wasn't "the biggest democratic exercise ever" which you parroted over and over again until I pointed that out to be erroneous as well.

Where is Kenneth Clark on record as saying that by the way? I can find no evidence of it but if he did say it then good on him and I agree.

Or are you just making something else up? You could have got a good job on the leave campaign had you been in the country, you'd have fit right in.

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, RPG said:

Palfy, get a grip on your prejudices mate. Nobody on this board is a far right fascist and you really shouldn't stoop so low. It only serves to undermine your own arguments and shows you up for the bigot that you evidently are.

Just for the record, the correct name of the Nazi Party is the National SOCIALIST Party.

Maybe you could consider also the difference between a Nationalist and a Patriot.

I do not agree with Corbyn's politics but, insofar as brexit is concerned my disgust for both Corbyn and Clark is equal. It has nothing to do with their individual politics and everything to do with the way they are trying to subvert democracy.

Fascist? My father was just old enough to catch the back end of WW2 and I am very proud of the small part he played in defeating fascism.

My father was in bomber command in WW11 he joined the airforce in 1937 when it was very small, and he voted fucking Labour all his life, and helped a facist like yourself enjoy the freedoms you’ve been accustomed to, now slag him off. 

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

No, I won't slag your father off at all. I have the utmost respect for anyone who played a part in defeating fascism and I strongly suspect that the Labour he voted for was not the Labour of Corbyn and momentum.

His son comes across as a twat though.

good cause this twat has got the making of you so goose step back to were you come from. 

[MikeO]

17 minutes ago, RPG said:

I have made nothing up. Please explain what democratic exercise in the electoral history of UK was bigger than brexit. And yes, Clark did say it. I think it is you who is making things up in the form of false rebuttals to very valid points.

If Clark said it then surely you can provide a link, I think it would make the papers.

Bigger turnouts at general elections on twenty-three separate occasions, most recently in 1992; I can list the other years if you like. 33,614,074 people voted then against 33,551,983 in the referendum. If you want me to post links so you can see that you were wrong then I'm happy to.

Or you could say, "OK my mistake" but I don't think you have that phrase in your vocabulary.

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

If Clark said it then surely you can provide a link, I think it would make the papers.

Bigger turnouts at general elections on twenty-three separate occasions, most recently in 1992; I can list the other years if you like. 33,614,074 people voted then against 33,551,983 in the referendum. If you want me to post links so you can see that you were wrong then I'm happy to.

Mike you hit him with facts and I’ll hit him shit and just maybe he will see sense or go away. 
And Rusty nail please don’t try and have a logical conversation with me I’m on my third bottle of Rioja and I couldn’t give a shit what you say, and yes I’m being a twat

[Palfy]

Just now, RPG said:

Methinks that you doth protest your anti fascism too much Palfy.

Are you sure you aren't a closet fascist yourself? You certainly come across like that with a refusal to consider anyone's point of view that is contrary to your own.

You still come across as a self rightous twat which doesn't help,a single point you are struggling to make.

Cheers!

Rusty as politely as I can put it fuck off, and thank you If you do. 

[StevO]

10 hours ago, RPG said:

Enlighten me please. Let's see how much I know and how much is new.

I’m asking a simple question, you keep on claiming that it was democratic, but do you actually know what you are defending? Do you know what they did?

[MikeO]

38 minutes ago, RPG said:

I did, but here it is again.

http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/disloyalty-betrayal-and-treason/

Perhaps you could also click on the other link I provided which gives the lie to your other riposte.

I've searched far and wide and although I can see that far right websites like the one you linked advertise it I can find nowhere that can give a when or a where he actually said it; that said if he did then, again, I agree with him.

I don't know what "other" link you're referring to so please remind me. Are you going to respond to my assertion (that I can provide links for if you like) that the referendum was the 24th biggest democratic exercise in UK history?

[StevO]

15 minutes ago, RPG said:

Are you sure you aren't a closet fascist yourself? You certainly come across like that with a refusal to consider anyone's point of view that is contrary to your own.

Are you not doing just the same though?

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

I've searched far and wide and although I can see that far right websites like the one you linked advertise it I can find nowhere that can give a when or a where he actually said it; that said if he did then, again, I agree with him.

I don't know what "other" link you're referring to so please remind me. Are you going to respond to my assertion (that I can provide links for if you like) that the referendum was the 24th biggest democratic exercise in UK history?

Found the link you're referring to which you edited in after initial post but it's behind an FT paywall so can't comment other than to point out that the headline says, "Brexit referendum itself was a massive exercise in democracy". I think the fact that it says "a" rather than "the biggest" is a bit telling; coupled with the numbers I gave you a while back proving it wasn't the biggest democratic exercise in the history of the Universe.

I've given you real actual numbers, you've given me a hidden site and extreme right wing propaganda (article entitled "Disloyalty, Betrayal and Traitors" so obviously going to have a balanced view). You're just wrong man, admit it; might even be cathartic to get off your horse for once. 

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, RPG said:

Well, how well reasoned and constructive that is. You obviously have no argument left to make so now resort to the behaviour of the defeated - foul language and/or personal insults.

So glad it is now out there, by your own hand and for all to see.

Cheers.

 

 

The thing is most agree with me, the truth is Rusty you’re not very well liked here. 
And I’m far from defeated in life I would say you are, but that would be very presumptuous of me because you have to a have a life worth losing first. 

 

16 minutes ago, RPG said:

If he would come up with a reasoned, polite argument I would happily debate it on its merits. But foul language and personal insults do nothing to achieve that.

I am disappointed that I descended to his standards briefly, but there is a limit.

You set the bar low I followed and like it, now fuck off again in the politest way possible. 

[Palfy]

13 minutes ago, RPG said:

You just can't help yourself can you Palfy. Maybe you should consider not posting either after alcohol or before you have taken your medication.

Thank you for proving my point all over again.

Cheers.

When it comes to you no, or hadn’t you noticed in your self proclaiming righteous world that I only have these feelings towards you, my contempt for you and the way you portray yourself holds no boundaries, I will not be civil to a pompous bigot like yourself. 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

As I have already said, enlighten me.

If you have a specific charge to make against Leave that you believe I may be unaware of, then stop dancing and make it.

I will then either agree that I was not aware of the allegation or put you right that I was. Simples!

I don’t get why you don’t answer the question, do you know what they were doing?

Did you know they specifically targeted people online, narrowing the target audience using illegally harvested Facebook data, who appeared to have not made up their mind on who to vote for and people who were not planning to vote?

Did you know they then targeted these people with false surveys to try to clarify their beliefs and fears?

Did you know they then targeted these people with false adverts, that linked their fears and beliefs with what the future in the EU looked like? Example, in a survey you make out that you fear for jobs and that you don’t trust Turkish people. Soon you start seeing false reports that Turkey is about to join and their government is funding getting people to the UK for employment. 
 

Did you know any of this happened? They wouldn’t have targeted you, if you are a Facebook user you would have come up as being out of the voting area so your data would have been dumped. 
 

As the margin in the polls was very tight they only has to target a small number of people to swing the vote. They weren’t even looking at remainers, they looked at young unemployed men the most. There was a lot of hatred they could fire up there. The crap you saw on the TV, the side of the bus, the things Boris was saying in the media, that’s not how the vote was won. It was won on Facebook, with illegally harvested data, with false stories and adverts, and also with illegal money. 
 

Please read the government inquiry on “fake news” for further details of it all. 
 

If you already knew all of this, and you still defend them, I don’t really have any words for that. 
 

Add into this that the same firm who were employed to do this did the same thing in the Trump campaign. And many more, take a look...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/qz.com/1239762/cambridge-analytica-scandal-all-the-countries-where-scl-elections-claims-to-have-worked/amp/

Fortunately they have gone out of business now the political world knows what they have been up to. 

[MikeO]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

According to the FT link I provided, it was the biggest single democratic exercise by number in the electoral history of UK.

Then the FT got it wrong and consequently so did you. As I pointed out earlier, the votes cast in the referendum were 33,551,983 against 33,614,074 in the 1992 General Election. There have also been another twenty-two GEs stretching back to 1922 with a higher turn-out than the referendum's 72.2%. 

3 hours ago, RPG said:

The 'other' link was, and still is, right next to the first link on my initial reply to you.

It appeared well after your initial reply when you edited it in, as I've already pointed out; and it's a link to an extreme right wing site so I wouldn't believe a word of what they say, there's no corroborative evidence anywhere as far as I can see. If you can provide some then great.

On both points I think you maybe need to check your "facts" before swallowing them whole.

[MikeO]

6 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think I see the confusion. You quote turnout percentage as your method of measurement. The FT article counts total number of voters. Unfortunately, I can't access the site either now as my free trial period has expired.

1992 was still bigger numerically speaking (evidence provided) so the FT was wrong either way, and the turn-out proportion is surely a better measure of how "big" the decision was to the populace in my book. 

[pete0]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

Fair enough, if that is the case, but a difference of less than 100,000 in almost 34 million is very tiny and I believe the FT reference also referred to the amount of build up, advertising, hustings, publicity stunts etc, that were associated with it. The FT definitely called it the single biggest democratic exercise in our electoral history and they are not the sort of paper to be wrong on that sort of thing - notwithstanding your well researched figures above.

Fuck me, how hard is it to say you were wrong. 

[johnh]

I always thought that the claim of being the largest vote in democratic history related to the number of votes for 'Leave'.  17.4m votes is the largest number of votes for anything, in history. So  it just shows how ridiculous are the claims that the vote was not democratic.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

But thanks for taking the trouble to list the items. The news does reach us here in Dubai and, so far, the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation, aka BBC, is still available to catch up on all the UK fake news and EU propaganda.

So you know of it, but just don’t believe it. But you wouldn’t have seen all this on the BBC as the mainstream media haven’t given it half as much coverage as they could have. 
 

To be clear, it’s not an allegation that these things happened. They happened, they have not been denied. Cambridge Analytica admitted it all, it was their main selling point. 
 

The ad you say you saw isn’t a public ad I was talking about, I’m talking about them pulling individuals fears and making specific ads for specific groups. They weren’t published ads, they were sent directly to specific Facebook accounts. If you saw the specific ad then you were a Facebook target. 
 

how you can say this isn’t relevant to Brexit is unbelievable, they were paid directly to do what they did for Brexit. Your head is so far buried in the sand it’s ridiculous.

I can’t discuss this further with you, I’m sorry. How someone can admit to knowing these things happened and yet just say “not relevant to Brexit” is just crazy. I understand when people who don’t know about this defending them, but to defend the indefensible isn’t alright in my book. To just expect the vulnerable people who were targeted to just see through it is baffling. You’ve clearly never met vulnerable people, or anyone who has been manipulated or anyone who has been talked into bad ideas. 
 

Enjoy your views, but I don’t need that in my life. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

I always thought that the claim of being the largest vote in democratic history related to the number of votes for 'Leave'.  17.4m votes is the largest number of votes for anything, in history. So  it just shows how ridiculous are the claims that the vote was not democratic.

To be democratic people would have to be more informed and left to make the decision rather than stoked with fear. 

Leave winning is closer to those in Africa, forget which country Zimbabwe maybe, practically voting with a gun to their head, they still had a choice but is it really democratic? Just instead of a gun it was mental manipulation in Leaves case. 

Is it democratic if people don't know what they're voting for/understand the actual consequences. Not that you can blame them all, they were lied to from the off. We're currently 2 years down the line and still have no idea what full consequence of leaving will be. 

[StevO]

27 minutes ago, RPG said:

I am not saying it is not relevant to brexit. It is every bit as relevant as Project Fear from the Remain camp. What I said was not relevant to brexit was your last para which talked about Trump and the failure of the social media businesses.

And, to be clear, I am not defending any wrongdoing but it has to be seen in the context of Project fear. If you are ever bored enough to trawl through my previous posts you will see that I have consistently said that both sides were guilty of misinformation and wrongdoing. The only area that I can see where we actually disagree is that I believe the UK electorate are smart enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.

And it looks like the brexit end game is now gathering pace as the EU27 have just given Barnier the green light to enter intensive discussions after Johnson and Varadkar appear to be very close to solving the Northern Ireland issue.

Maybe so, but not relevant to brexit. 
direct quote of yours. 
 

It doesn’t have to be seen in any context, they broke the law. Stole information, used that information to target vulnerable people with lies, fear and hatred for votes. If ever there was a project fear, this was it!

id rather not continue the discussion. You keep your views, your idea that what they did was just the same as what remain did, and you be happy with how you feel about it. I personally find what they did disgusting, and if they played by the rules I think we would have seen a different outcome. The fact the company they employed to do this has previous only compounds this for me. 
 

I don’t see how we can continue the discussion so im not going to. Our beliefs are very different. 

[StevO]

1 minute ago, pete0 said:

To be democratic people would have to be more informed and left to make the decision rather than stoked with fear. 

Leave winning is closer to those in Africa, forget which country Zimbabwe maybe, practically voting with a gun to their head, they still had a choice but is it really democratic? Just instead of a gun it was mental manipulation in Leaves case. 

Is it democratic if people don't know what they're voting for/understand the actual consequences. Not that you can blame them all, they were lied to from the off. We're currently 2 years down the line and still have no idea what full consequence of leaving will be. 

Great post!

[StevO]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

Exactly. My responses were in bold to reply to each of the points you raised and underneath each point you raised. That comment was in response purely to your last para. It's not difficult. Its like every time you are given the answer you want to change the question. It was a simple and perfectly reasonable reply to your last para. No more, no less!

My last paragraph was about Cambridge Analytica going out of business. This happened due to their involvement in Brexit and the Trump election. 
 

I don’t want to change any question. I wanted to know if you knew what they had done and if you did I was shocked that you defended them. You say you knew about it and still defend them. That’s all I needed to know to work out I can’t continue having these discussions with you. 

[pete0]

14 minutes ago, RPG said:

Now you are rewriting history. I have been quite specfic that I am NOT defending any wrongdoing by either Leave or Remain. What I did say was that I trusted the electorate to see through the misinformation from BOTH sides.

You clearly don't trust the electorate (or are looking for a weak excuse for a second referendum) and, as far as I can see, that is the only area of opinion where we disagree on this specific matter.

If you trust the electorate why be so passionate about remain moaning for a second referendum. Surely you should welcome it as if leave won again there'd be no place for argument. 

Talking about trusting the electorate, MikeO, has already posted about the chap in your profile picture not trusting to make the big decisions outright. Think you should change your pic to someone who shares your views rather than the rewrite history yourself. 

[Formby]

Politicians lying to get votes is hardly news. Political parties failing to deliver on campaign promises is hardly news. Do general election campaigns or presidential campaigns get rerun on the basis of the lies and misinformation? Should Trump / Clinton have been rerun after the Russian interference? All that is being claimed here is that Leave were more adept at spreading lies and misinformation than Remain. The corollary of that is hard to gauge, though, as there are no stats out there (that I have seen, anyway) that put a figure on the number of people duped into voting Leave, as opposed to those people too scared to vote Leave because of Project Fear. Maybe everyone who voted Remain was fully cognisant of the issues, maybe not. To argue that the referendum should not have counted because you believe people were voting for lies throws up all sorts of questions about democracy itself - how we police political campaigns, being the most prominent.    

[StevO]

29 minutes ago, RPG said:

Now you are rewriting history. I have been quite specfic that I am NOT defending any wrongdoing by either Leave or Remain. What I did say was that I trusted the electorate to see through the misinformation from BOTH sides.

Cambridge Analytica going bust did not affect brexit. That was, is and remains my point. If anything, the reverse is true. Brexit affected Cambridge Analytica!

You clearly don't trust the electorate (or are looking for a weak excuse for a second referendum) and, as far as I can see, that is the only area of opinion where we disagree on this specific matter.

No, Cambridge Analytica going bust didn’t affect Brexit. I never said it did. 
 

Im not looking for a weak excuse, I’m looking that one side broke the law and acted immorally but you’re ok with that.
 

It seems like you think they can break the law because the British people can see through it. That’s extremely naive. People can be manipulated, especially by using their fears against them, very easily. 

It’s not about not trusting the electorate, leave.eu betrayed the electorates trust. But again, you are fine with what they did, I’m not.

I expect in something so important that people in powerful positions do the right thing, not just for the result, and don’t break the law while they are at it. That is where we differ.