Brexit...

[StevO]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

What I am scared of is disrespecting democracy. Even Abacus Abbott agrees that if the referendum is rerun, Leave would still almost certainly win.

Is not the truth of the matter that Remain just haven't got the good grace to admit that they lost and are continuing their dirty tricks to try to subvert the will of the people and to get their own, minority, way?

You are ridiculous Rusty! Scared of disrespecting democracy, how about breaking the law to win a referendum? 
 

The truth of the matter is that if it was the other way around and the remain group won using the same “tricks” there would be riots and you’d be at the front throwing fire bombs!

Why am I still responding? I must be a dickhead. 

[MikeO]

15 minutes ago, RPG said:

If you are so keen to ensure that the legal issues are followed to the letter perhaps we should consider the following link in which yet another eminent QC states that we have already left EU.

https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/another-eminent-qc-claims-that-we-exited-the-eu-on-the-29th-of-march/

You do seem inordinately interested in extreme right wing sites Rusty, please do us a favour and stop linking them on here though; although that one was at least hilarious in it's stupidity. Any news on the Ken Clark quote corroboration by the way? 

[johnh]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

No, it shouldn't. That helps no one

1) Remain - as is

2) Remain - with a plan to improve

3) No deal

4) Deal to leave (thats already idenitified

After all this time, John, you still don't get what democracy means...

Matt, that final comment is unbelievable.  Made by someone who wants to overturn a democratic vote.  You couldn't make it up.

[MikeO]

20 minutes ago, RPG said:

Well, a quote is a quote, no matter it's source.

"Santa Claus is Real." There's an uncorroborated internet quote for you; does that make it true in your book?

20 minutes ago, RPG said:

1- Who won the referendum?

2- Do you respect democracy?

Leave and yes. See, answering questions asked of you can be easy, you should give it a try one say.

Media Bias/Fact Check positions the site slightly more to the right than you imply. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Well, given your answers, for which I thank you, how can you possibly object to our leaving the EU?

The link you provide shows that the site is regarded as right wing, not extreme right wing and if you click on your own link you will see that such is recorded in the narrative. Other sources suggest it is right of centre.

The graphic puts it between right wing and extreme right while you said it was, "right of centre or right wing", there's subtle difference in there.

Glad you liked my answers, funny you still fail constantly to answer mine; but there we are, we're all different aren't we?

 

Another answer coming, ready?

I object to us leaving the EU for the myriad of reasons I, and many others, have put forth multiple times over the years so I'm not going to go to the extreme of going over the same old ground again, it's pointless. Do you think if remain had won UKIP and Farage would've downed tools and said, "OK lads well done lets all get behind Europe!"? I'm thinking that's unlikely personally but as it's a question (albeit a hypothetical one) I'm sure you won't have an answer because answering questions isn't your "thing".

I voted for PR in the referendum on that, didn't win but I still think it's a fairer type of government than FPTP so I still want it to happen.

If we leave the EU I'll accept it obviously because I'll have no option but I will vote for and support whatever party puts rejoining in their manifesto, there's bound to be one. Alternatively in the very possible consequence of Scotland voting for independence and rejoining we'll seriously consider bringing forward our oft discussed thoughts about moving/retiring there although Greece is still an option.

Anyway, what about Santa being real eh? There's a turn-up!

[Matt]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Matt, that final comment is unbelievable.  Made by someone who wants to overturn a democratic vote.  You couldn't make it up.

Made by someone who didn’t get a say. 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

No it wasn’t and if you wish to talk about me at least refer it to me. 
And not discuss me with a twat.  

Point proven. Lay off the wine mate

[MikeO]

8 minutes ago, RPG said:

So, you still won't or can't explain your legal points against an eminent QC who states that we have already left EU. Still attacking the messenger and not the message.

You also say that you will accept it if we leave the EU but how about accepting the decision to leave EU and not supporting all the underhand tactics of Remain MPs who are still trying to subvert the democratic will of the people?

Good grief you are such a child.

I'm a retired sound engineer and you expect me to argue legal points with a QC? Get a fucking hobby.

Oh and I see your propensity for right wing propaganda sites shows no sign of abating.

"The rapid rise of new populist, right-wing news sites is pushing conspiratorial, anti-establishment content outside the channels of traditional media. This can be seen in the success, for example, of PoliticalUK.co.uk, which works within a network of sites, social media pages and video accounts. Since its inception at the end of April 2018, according to Tom McTague, PoliticalUK has gained more than 3 million interactions on social media, with an average of 5,000 ‘engagements’ for each story published.

225.McTague noted in his investigation that PoliticalUK.co.uk’s report ‘Media Silence as tens of thousands protest against Brexit betrayal’, about a rally in Westminster in December 2018 led by the far-right activist Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, also known as Tommy Robinson, received 20,351 interactions on Facebook compared to a more critical report about the same event by the Daily Mail which received just 3,481 interactions. Content from PoliticalUK.co.uk is being promoted by Facebook groups including ‘EU-I Voted Leave’ which is followed by more that 220,000 people. Robinson himself has over 1 million followers on Facebook, making him the second most popular British political figure on the site, after the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn."

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1791/179108.htm

I'm sorry but you're impossible to debate with (unlike other leavers on here like John, Formby etc), you won't answer any question, you won't respect any opinion other than your own; you have now linked three mid/far/extreme hate inciting right wing sites despite being asked not to so I've had it. I carried on a bit too long last night as I'd had a drink but from now I won't be responding to a word you say. You're beneath contempt and frankly I wish I'd deleted your account the moment you came back; it was after all what you demanded I do when you stomped off in a huff for ever however many years ago it was despite me trying to convince you to leave it dormant in case you ever changed your mind. I wonder if @pete0 ever heard from the police after you, so you said, reported him for calling you a racist?

He's been sensible enough to stay away from here mostly, I'm off to join him, cheerio.

 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Point proven. Lay off the wine mate

You’ve proven your very condescending, if you’ve got something to say about me say it to me and not others, not to much to ask for is it, and nothing to do with wine mate. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I wonder if @pete0 ever heard from the police after you, so you said, reported him for calling you a racist?

He's been sensible enough to stay away from here mostly, I'm off to join him, cheerio.

I forgot about that bit. 

Welcome to serenity  

[MikeO]

8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I forgot about that bit. 

Welcome to serenity  

I'll drink to that, just less than yesterday

[Bailey]

Out of interest with the second referendumers, if the same question was asked and leave won again, would you accept that decision? 

Likewise if say no deal or Boris' deal (whatever that might be) were put against remain in a second referendum and won would you accept that decision seeing as we would still not really know what that outcome meant for individuals?

If you would, then why?

[StevO]

10 hours ago, Bailey said:

Out of interest with the second referendumers, if the same question was asked and leave won again, would you accept that decision? 

Likewise if say no deal or Boris' deal (whatever that might be) were put against remain in a second referendum and won would you accept that decision seeing as we would still not really know what that outcome meant for individuals?

If you would, then why?

I would accept the decision of a second referendum completely. 
Mostly because even though we still don’t know exactly what will happen after we leave, we are all aware of the chaos that has broken out the lengths politicians will go to to get their own way, so I think the result would be more justified. No one voted for chaos, though I’m sure if that was a third option on the ballot it would have received plenty. 
 

When I initially voted leave it was because I saw it as an opportunity for a different kind of growth, and I still had faith in the MPs to make it happen. I don’t have that faith anymore. I think they will only get their shit together and do what’s best for the country, rather than their own point scoring, if things get much worse.  I still think it could have been an opportunity, we just didn’t have the people to follow it through. Even though he was a remainer I’d have liked Cameron to stay in charge and control the situation. For some reason I had faith in him. 

[Matt]

15 hours ago, RPG said:

I fail to see the relevance of what you just wrote Matt.

Can you explain for me as I just don't understand how that offers any rebuttal whatsoever to the point that Johnh made so eloquently.

That’s because you don’t want to see it. The people spoke, except the millions who were refused a say. How does that count as democratic (not to mention further how democracy actually works in the UK). 

 

13 hours ago, Palfy said:

You’ve proven your very condescending, if you’ve got something to say about me say it to me and not others, not to much to ask for is it, and nothing to do with wine mate. 

My apologies for making an assumption, but your posts here have been out of character and frankly disgraceful in some cases so I assumed you were not yourself since you’re usually quite reasonable and clever. 

[Formby]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I would accept the decision of a second referendum completely. 
Mostly because even though we still don’t know exactly what will happen after we leave, we are all aware of the chaos that has broken out the lengths politicians will go to to get their own way, so I think the result would be more justified. No one voted for chaos, though I’m sure if that was a third option on the ballot it would have received plenty. 
 

When I initially voted leave it was because I saw it as an opportunity for a different kind of growth, and I still had faith in the MPs to make it happen. I don’t have that faith anymore. I think they will only get their shit together and do what’s best for the country, rather than their own point scoring, if things get much worse.  I still think it could have been an opportunity, we just didn’t have the people to follow it through. Even though he was a remainer I’d have liked Cameron to stay in charge and control the situation. For some reason I had faith in him. 

I echo much of this. With such a slender majority, and with all that has happened since, I would also accept the result of a second referendum. I voted to leave but not at the expense of ripping the country apart and setting neighbour upon neighbour. Forcing through any kind of mandate (and many don't even recognise it) when opinions are so polarised and the opposition so steadfast, was only going to lead to trouble. The whole political system has shown itself to be defective and most MPs have behaved poorly. I really wish there was a kinder politics out there and a great tolerance of other people's points of view, but there really isn't at the moment. I don't think Cameron would have saved the situation, but I agree he would have done better than May (plainly out of her depth) and Johnson (toxic).    

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

I echo much of this. With such a slender majority, and with all that has happened since, I would also accept the result of a second referendum. I voted to leave but not at the expense of ripping the country apart and setting neighbour upon neighbour. Forcing through any kind of mandate (and many don't even recognise it) when opinions are so polarised and the opposition so steadfast, was only going to lead to trouble. The whole political system has shown itself to be defective and most MPs have behaved poorly. I really wish there was a kinder politics out there and a great tolerance of other people's points of view, but there really isn't at the moment. I don't think Cameron would have saved the situation, but I agree he would have done better than May (plainly out of her depth) and Johnson (toxic).    

You put that a whole lot more eloquently than I did. Agree with you completely. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Ultimately I believe that Brexit and all the "issues" that surround us today stem back to the financial crisis in 2008. Experts suggested that such a thing could not happen and the public appears to have lost all faith in any kind of economic analysis since then.

We are told that "crashing out" of Europe would be disastrous for the economy, but we have been conditioned to take the opinions of experts with a grain of salt. The public has been lied to so many times by people in power that they are utterly bamboozled and now can only trust in their own instincts and experiences as they are the undeniable truths for them.

Great post!

[johnh]

17 hours ago, Matt said:

Made by someone who didn’t get a say. 

Still doesn''t justify a disgraceful post.

[Matt]

41 minutes ago, johnh said:

Still doesn''t justify a disgraceful post.

Disgraceful? Just pointing out that people are wrong calling the vote democratic when millions were refused a vote (that’s disgraceful) and that you still don’t get that or how British democracy works. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Leave would lose another referendum. I say that as a leave voter and would vote leave again. I just think that more young people have been politically activated and would vote to remain.

My reasons for voting leave is that I believe that the EU is beyond reform. They will go full steam ahead with whatever it is they plan to do and there isn't a damn thing any individual nation can realistically do about it. It's my belief that the EU intends to become a form of super state, a United States of Europe so to speak, with ever increasing political and economic union. My problem with this is that we can see that a one size fits all policy clearly doesn't work. What works for France and Germany clearly doesn't work for Italy, Greece and Spain.

Ultimately I believe the EU needs to be dismantled and return to it's previous form of the European Economic Community. A collection of independent countries that have agreed to co-operate with each other for their own mutual benefit.

But to cooperate you need compromise and coming together in the way you suggest (which already exists) is a union. A European Union if you will 

[johnh]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Disgraceful? Just pointing out that people are wrong calling the vote democratic when millions were refused a vote (that’s disgraceful) and that you still don’t get that or how British democracy works. 

Matt, I don't know how old you are (after your recent posts, 14 or 15 springs to mind) but I became eligible to vote in 1957.  I have voted in every GE since then. I have voted Conservative and Labour.  I have voted when Conservatives have won and lost and when Labour have won and lost.  I have been disappointed when my vote was for the losing party but accepted the result every time, 100%.  I don't need you to tell me how British democracy works, your post was an insult and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Democracy is a very fragile instrument and it only needs to fail once to fail for ever.  YOU are amongst those who will be guilty of destroying it for ever.  It doesn't matter how much you stretch logic or come up with mealy mouthed excuses, YOU ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.  End of.

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, johnh said:

Matt, I don't know how old you are (after your recent posts, 14 or 15 springs to mind) but I became eligible to vote in 1957.  I have voted in every GE since then. I have voted Conservative and Labour.  I have voted when Conservatives have won and lost and when Labour have won and lost.  I have been disappointed when my vote was for the losing party but accepted the result every time, 100%.  I don't need you to tell me how British democracy works, your post was an insult and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Democracy is a very fragile instrument and it only needs to fail once to fail for ever.  YOU are amongst those who will be guilty of destroying it for ever.  It doesn't matter how much you stretch logic or come up with mealy mouthed excuses, YOU ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.  End of.

John there are examples all over the world that have seen democracy being flouted as here, for instance would you say that it was democracy doing it’s job when Robert Mugabe was so say constantly being elected President of Zimbabwe, I know you are going to say no correlation, but there are some people being refused a vote and people being lied to. 
For me a refusal of a vote or a lie to win a vote is undemocratic know no matter how you dress it up wouldn’t you agree. 

[MikeO]

Tories are currently running the country on 42.3% of the votes cast.

"National Socialist German Workers' Party" took over the running of Germany in 1933 with 43.91% of the votes cast. That turned out well.

I realise that's more a criticism of our (and their) electoral system than evidence that "democracy" isn't definitively good or bad but that it's not infallible and you follow it blindly (at times) to your cost. Democracy has often been manipulated in the UK by (for example) boundary changes by the party in charge; it's a movable feast, and the guys at the top table will always "manouvre" it to their advantage.

[Matt]

54 minutes ago, johnh said:

Matt, I don't know how old you are (after your recent posts, 14 or 15 springs to mind) but I became eligible to vote in 1957.  I have voted in every GE since then. I have voted Conservative and Labour.  I have voted when Conservatives have won and lost and when Labour have won and lost.  I have been disappointed when my vote was for the losing party but accepted the result every time, 100%.  I don't need you to tell me how British democracy works, your post was an insult and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Democracy is a very fragile instrument and it only needs to fail once to fail for ever.  YOU are amongst those who will be guilty of destroying it for ever.  It doesn't matter how much you stretch logic or come up with mealy mouthed excuses, YOU ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.  End of.

How am I guilty? I got no say but am directly effected by the result. I’m 36 for the record. 

There was no stretching of logic. Britain is a representative democracy, ie run by Parliament. Referenda is direct democracy, defined by the people, which is a much better form of democracy provided people are actually allowed to vote. 
 

I have nothing to be ashamed of for present facts. I cannot be undemocratic because I have been refused a voice; That in itself is undemocratic. 

so yeah, end of. 
 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

Matt, I don't know how old you are (after your recent posts, 14 or 15 springs to mind) but I became eligible to vote in 1957.  I have voted in every GE since then. I have voted Conservative and Labour.  I have voted when Conservatives have won and lost and when Labour have won and lost.  I have been disappointed when my vote was for the losing party but accepted the result every time, 100%.  I don't need you to tell me how British democracy works, your post was an insult and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Democracy is a very fragile instrument and it only needs to fail once to fail for ever.  YOU are amongst those who will be guilty of destroying it for ever.  It doesn't matter how much you stretch logic or come up with mealy mouthed excuses, YOU ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.  End of.

I’m disappointed in you after this post John. You’re a sensible and experienced individual, but to call out Matt like this is extremely harsh. Matt was denied a vote, and is entitled to be frustrated by that. He views democracy in the UK as something that should give him, and Rusty, a vote. How can it be so bad that he doesn’t see that as fair or democratic? Surely you would agree that all brits should have a vote for it to be democratic, and not just those who lived in the UK at the time?

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’m disappointed in you after this post John. You’re a sensible and experienced individual, but to call out Matt like this is extremely harsh. Matt was denied a vote, and is entitled to be frustrated by that. He views democracy in the UK as something that should give him, and Rusty, a vote. How can it be so bad that he doesn’t see that as fair or democratic? Surely you would agree that all brits should have a vote for it to be democratic, and not just those who lived in the UK at the time?

Sorry to “correct” you mate, but I don’t think I should be given a vote for the sake of it, and it’s something I’ve said from the beginning.

I pay no tax and have been abroad a long time. I should not have a say about how the country is run. don’t get me wrong, I have my ideas etc and the Tory’s are the closest I’ve lived with to be considered flat out evil. 
 

 But this isn’t about my ideas or beliefs of a party, it’s much more than that no matter how it’s dressed up. This affects my citizenship and for that I absolutely, along with the millions of others who have British passport, should have a voice. 

anyone dedicated enough to always vote in a GE should be commended, even more so if they’re voting on mandate rather than party affiliation, like John (which is why I’m still bemused why the definition of democracy isn’t clear). I used to think a no-vote because there’s no good option was a good idea, long ago. Difference is then I at least had the choice of not voting, as ignorant as it was, and now I do not. I chose to make a better life for me, and eventually a family, by using my EU citizenship. thats being taken away from me. Not through ignorance this time, but deliberately denied. Denying a voice is not democracy. 

[pete0]

17 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

What is the name of that internet phenomenon? The longer a conversation goes on the more likely someone brings up Nazis.

Hard not to compare the tories to them tbf, especially with Boris at the helm. 

Personally found it mad how recent ww2 was when studying in school, like how did people fall for it/let it happen. And never in my lifetime did I think we'd see that sort of situation in a European first world country nevermind it he the one in I'm in, but here we are. 

[StevO]

33 minutes ago, Matt said:

Sorry to “correct” you mate, but I don’t think I should be given a vote for the sake of it, and it’s something I’ve said from the beginning.

I pay no tax and have been abroad a long time. I should not have a say about how the country is run. don’t get me wrong, I have my ideas etc and the Tory’s are the closest I’ve lived with to be considered flat out evil. 
 

 But this isn’t about my ideas or beliefs of a party, it’s much more than that no matter how it’s dressed up. This affects my citizenship and for that I absolutely, along with the millions of others who have British passport, should have a voice. 

anyone dedicated enough to always vote in a GE should be commended, even more so if they’re voting on mandate rather than party affiliation, like John (which is why I’m still bemused why the definition of democracy isn’t clear). I used to think a no-vote because there’s no good option was a good idea, long ago. Difference is then I at least had the choice of not voting, as ignorant as it was, and now I do not. I chose to make a better life for me, and eventually a family, by using my EU citizenship. thats being taken away from me. Not through ignorance this time, but deliberately denied. Denying a voice is not democracy. 

Couldn’t agree with you more Matt. It doesn’t make sense to me. 

[MikeO]

15 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

What is the name of that internet phenomenon? The longer a conversation goes on the more likely someone brings up Nazis.

"Godwin's Law" (which is why I never used the word you did).

I was just making the point that "democracy" has many and varied interpretations, and I think it's a little harsh to vilify someone who has a different idea of it than you do. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Sorry to “correct” you mate, but I don’t think I should be given a vote for the sake of it, and it’s something I’ve said from the beginning.

I pay no tax and have been abroad a long time. I should not have a say about how the country is run. don’t get me wrong, I have my ideas etc and the Tory’s are the closest I’ve lived with to be considered flat out evil. 
 

 But this isn’t about my ideas or beliefs of a party, it’s much more than that no matter how it’s dressed up. This affects my citizenship and for that I absolutely, along with the millions of others who have British passport, should have a voice. 

anyone dedicated enough to always vote in a GE should be commended, even more so if they’re voting on mandate rather than party affiliation, like John (which is why I’m still bemused why the definition of democracy isn’t clear). I used to think a no-vote because there’s no good option was a good idea, long ago. Difference is then I at least had the choice of not voting, as ignorant as it was, and now I do not. I chose to make a better life for me, and eventually a family, by using my EU citizenship. thats being taken away from me. Not through ignorance this time, but deliberately denied. Denying a voice is not democracy. 

And add to that and I believe it might be in the hundred of thousands, workers from other EU countries who had a right to a vote but where denied that vote due to not enough resources to process their applications, which was another flaw in the referendum process that suited the Brexit vote.