Brexit...

[Matt]

19 minutes ago, RPG said:

Its very simple. EU rules require freedom of movement. We can therefore not object to any EU citizen accessing UK. Post Brexit we can, should we wish, require visas and pre approval of all citizens from all countries. Not saying we will, but we could. At the moment, we cannot. QED!

Or, are you saying that we can require visas and pre approval right now for the other EU 27 countries??

No. What I’m saying is that it’s irrelevant because any companies that choose to stay in the UK will simply bend the rules for EU citizens as they do non-EU citizens, and that the UK will do the same as they’ve done recently for the other countries I’ve mentioned recently. An assumption, I’ll grant you, but based on the evidence that they’ve already done it with close allies, and makes the whole immigration a complete non-issue.

You can argue that at least we’d have a choice regarding EU citizens. It’ll take our control over immigration from 166 countries and take it to 193, a 13% potential increase of control. I can’t argue with that. What I can argue is that the end result is and will be completely the same. 

All that for a “freedom” of choice ending in the same result but will cost the economy and country for generations? Where is the logic or benefit there?

 

[Matt]

I’ve agreed with one of your points as it’s fact but only at high level, no detail, because it’s more complicated than the fact presented. Not your fault, there is no plan for Brexit so you can’t give more than that.

As you’ve said earlier, it’s pointless debating with you, albeit for different reasons.

I’ve presented facts, regarding economy and how representative democracy works (maybe before your return), immigration laws and how GB controls them, explanations of what to expect based on current and past examples except where I’ve specified assumptions. you continue to predominantly work with only opinions and maybes. Edit: and good will 

Which, again, is not your fault because you, and other leave voters, have no precedent or evidence to work on! Which only advocates the point that it should never have been left the population (ignoring the fact that it contradicts representative democracy)!

[Matt]

On 03/10/2019 at 15:16, RPG said:

Lots of opinions presented as facts there Matt.

But you are right about one thing. We will never agree as the main thing over 17 million people are fighting for is something you have already stated that you do not value.

Which ones?

[StevO]

Rusty, I’ve got to ask because I’m intrigued, what happens if post Brexit the Government dont have a positive agreement with the country you currently live in? Is there potential they could make you leave?

I get Matts point of view about not having a vote. The impact of all this could eventually cost him his employment and he might have to move back to a country where he had no say in this. One vote might not have made a difference but it was his, and should have been yours, to make. But you have no intention of coming back to a country where you are bothered about immigration so passionately, but you yourself are now an immigrant. Matt wants free movement, which is completely understandable with his professional and family circumstances. I don’t see why someone who lives abroad and has family over here wouldn’t want it to be easier for people to get in and out, not good people anyway. It’s not like EU nationals have been coming over here and causing havoc. My company works alongside other companies who are mostly staffed by Romanians, Hungarians, Polish and Lithuanians. They often seem weird at first, after years of working alongside them I’ve found they are just not confident speaking our language and don’t want to come across stupid and not fit in. But they are all good people just trying to earn a living to look after their families. If there was to be a restriction for these guys we would struggle in our business because English lads who get into these companies always want more and more and don’t work as hard (generalisation I know but I’ve seen it for 16 years over and over again). I didn’t think about these things when I voted out, I’d hate to work in a local company with just local people. It would be so boring!

[StevO]

Got a bit carried away there. Was only trying to ask one question. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Rusty, I’ve got to ask because I’m intrigued, what happens if post Brexit the Government dont have a positive agreement with the country you currently live in? Is there potential they could make you leave?

I get Matts point of view about not having a vote. The impact of all this could eventually cost him his employment and he might have to move back to a country where he had no say in this. One vote might not have made a difference but it was his, and should have been yours, to make. But you have no intention of coming back to a country where you are bothered about immigration so passionately, but you yourself are now an immigrant. Matt wants free movement, which is completely understandable with his professional and family circumstances. I don’t see why someone who lives abroad and has family over here wouldn’t want it to be easier for people to get in and out, not good people anyway. It’s not like EU nationals have been coming over here and causing havoc. My company works alongside other companies who are mostly staffed by Romanians, Hungarians, Polish and Lithuanians. They often seem weird at first, after years of working alongside them I’ve found they are just not confident speaking our language and don’t want to come across stupid and not fit in. But they are all good people just trying to earn a living to look after their families. If there was to be a restriction for these guys we would struggle in our business because English lads who get into these companies always want more and more and don’t work as hard (generalisation I know but I’ve seen it for 16 years over and over again). I didn’t think about these things when I voted out, I’d hate to work in a local company with just local people. It would be so boring!

I'm going to add to the generalisation here but we employ a Polish secretary as a translatorShe does the same work as the English secretaries but takes on the cases for the Polish clients we have. She is one of about 8 secretaries we employ. Unfortunately she has just left, partly because she is a bit worried about what might happen after Brexit but it wasn't the only reason, however the amount of outstanding work has doubled in her absence. I don't know how much she was on but based on some of the conversations I had with her I would be surprised if she was earning as much as the other secretaries.

It's a surprise that the EU hasn't agreed with the UK to uphold the rights of those living abroad.

[Matt]

22 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm going to add to the generalisation here but we employ a Polish secretary as a translatorShe does the same work as the English secretaries but takes on the cases for the Polish clients we have. She is one of about 8 secretaries we employ. Unfortunately she has just left, partly because she is a bit worried about what might happen after Brexit but it wasn't the only reason, however the amount of outstanding work has doubled in her absence. I don't know how much she was on but based on some of the conversations I had with her I would be surprised if she was earning as much as the other secretaries.

It's a surprise that the EU hasn't agreed with the UK to uphold the rights of those living abroad.

Slightly off topic here and experience based opinion, but I would guess she was getting 10-20% less, and it’s got nothing to do with the EU, it’s companies taking advantage. That’s one point. 

The second point; There was a documentary/ report, can’t remember which, showing teens claiming JSA (if it’s still called that) and asked to do a morning on a farm as an experiment. Some gave up and some said they wouldn’t back the next day because it was too hard. Meanwhile, the regular employees of the farms were mostly Eastern European and just got on with it. Just thought it was interesting as it wasn’t EU nationals coming over taking jobs from hardworking Brit’s. It was people coming to do a rough job because they had an opportunity to make money and, based on that small sample group, showed that the hard working Brit wasn’t willing (especially when you can get benefits while sitting on your arse “applying” for jobs indoors). 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

 

Fixed it for you.

So none. No a single link of evidence. Well argued.

[StevO]

20 minutes ago, RPG said:

I have lived with the permanent and very real risk of having to leave my country of employment irrespective of any agreements that may exist between the country of my nationality and country of residency - and have done so willingly for the last 24 years across 3 very different countries of residence. My expat residency visas are (and always have been) tied to my continued employment. Lose my job equals lose my residency visa and get out of the country at very little (less than 1 month) notice. There are no unions here. There is no welfare benefit for unemployed expats - just a one way ticket from whence we came, no free health care, no free housing and locals are favoured over expats - and quite rightly so.

On the other hand, if you have confidence in your ability and employability and can accept (or even welcome) the threats associated with the 'adventurous' lifestyle there is a good, tax free salary to be had.

It's called market forces and is applicable the world over, whether you like it or not, and irrespective of which wing of the political spectrum you inhabit.

Thanks for that. I wasn’t asking from a political position, I was genuinely intrigued. 
Matt, as another abroad, has spoken of his situation. I was just interested to see how it works where you are. Me and the missus have often talked about moving to the states but never took a serious move to it, nothing more than looking at job sites and cost of housing.

What country are you in?

Also, I’ve noticed you say on here that you’ve no intention of coming back, but as your visa is tied to employment status, where do you retire?

I know that all a bit personal, I just find the prospect of living abroad exciting. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Slightly off topic here and experience based opinion, but I would guess she was getting 10-20% less, and it’s got nothing to do with the EU, it’s companies taking advantage. That’s one point. 

The second point; There was a documentary/ report, can’t remember which, showing teens claiming JSA (if it’s still called that) and asked to do a morning on a farm as an experiment. Some gave up and some said they wouldn’t back the next day because it was too hard. Meanwhile, the regular employees of the farms were mostly Eastern European and just got on with it. Just thought it was interesting as it wasn’t EU nationals coming over taking jobs from hardworking Brit’s. It was people coming to do a rough job because they had an opportunity to make money and, based on that small sample group, showed that the hard working Brit wasn’t willing (especially when you can get benefits while sitting on your arse “applying” for jobs indoors). 

Oh no, I know its nothing to do with the EU, as you say it will be my employer making the most of her situation.

The second paragraph would also be my experience. I will also add, as another sweeping generalisation, is that Polish people in particular are very much "get on with it" types. They would have to be dying to go to their GP whereas the lower level income of Brits are off work regularly due to illness and also go to their GP when all they have is a snuffle.

[Matt]

52 minutes ago, RPG said:

Your 'facts' are not facts at all Matt. They are your opinions, presented as facts - which they are not. No need to argue. It is self evident.

Yet you fail to identify a single one.

List them simply as to which you disagree with and I’ll answer as such. I’ve bookmarked the relevant documents in some cases to back up my case. Especially immigration and definition of democracy. So please, identify where I’ve quoted fact as opinion, or I’ve not already stated opinion 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Oh no, I know its nothing to do with the EU, as you say it will be my employer making the most of her situation.

The second paragraph would also be my experience. I will also add, as another sweeping generalisation, is that Polish people in particular are very much "get on with it" types. They would have to be dying to go to their GP whereas the lower level income of Brits are off work regularly due to illness and also go to their GP when all they have is a snuffle.

Workers from other EU countries contribute hugely to our economy, sadly it’s a minority of British nationals that take out and never put in. 
Our welfare state was set up for the right reasons to help those with a genuine need, but is being abused by people with no back bone or morals, and what really pisses me off Is that there vote may have pushed the leave vote over the line. 
Probably not in context with anything else that’s been said but at least I’ve got it off my chest. 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, RPG said:

It would not be fair for me to comment on Matt's specific status as I don't know all the details but, as a general rule learned over 24 years as an expat, the worrying over the potential business related consequences of any forthcoming event is invariably 10 times more stressful than dealing with the actual consequences of the event once they are known. For this reason alone, I think brexit has to happen 31/10/19.

I follow what you are saying that when circumstances have dictated you have moved on through need, as one door closes another door opens so to say, you have been fortunate in that respect largely because of the job you do you have been able to apply your trade in other countries who require your services. 
What I don’t grasp with someone who has been an expat for 24 years is how your experiences of not living or working in this country for so long gives you the idea that you know what’s best for the country and the people. 
Let’s be frank if it goes wrong millions of people won’t be able to say there’s nothing here for me up sticks and move to another country, which you have done on numerous occasions, they will have to stay and live with the consequences, you won’t on the 31/10/19 so how you can compare your journey to the vast majority who reside in this country is beyond me there is no comparison. 
There is a phrase that comes to mind which is talk is cheap, and for me that ideally sums up you, because in or out has no consequences for someone who hasn’t lived or worked here for 24 years and has no intention of returning, there surely can’t be no cheaper talk than that, in fact you want to put a billion pound bet on with our money that we will be better off out and if it goes tits up you lose nothing, your crazy Rusty there must be a severe lack of oxygen in your cabin my friend   
And if you choose to reply please address all points because I have noticed you only challenge points you feel you can win and ignore the rest. 

[StevO]

7 hours ago, RPG said:

No problem and happy to answer.

My country of residence, at the moment, is United Arab Emirates. I have been here 7 years. Before that I was in Singapore for 8 years and, before that, Brunei for 9 years.

My intention not to return to UK is not based in any way on recent events in UK but on the simple facts that my wife is Malaysian, we have an adopted Malaysian baby girl, both my parents are dead, I never had any brothers or sisters, I love South East Asia (spent time there when in military too) and the wider family and friends that we have in UK would rather visit us in UAE or Malaysia than have us visit them in UK.

We have a condo on Penang Island, Malaysia waiting for us in retirement and hope to be living there permanently in the next 2-3 years. But even then, and married to a Malaysian citizen, I do not qualify for permanent residency. You learn to manage the situation and it really is no big deal.

It would not be fair for me to comment on Matt's specific status as I don't know all the details but, as a general rule learned over 24 years as an expat, the worrying over the potential business related consequences of any forthcoming event is invariably 10 times more stressful than dealing with the actual consequences of the event once they are known. For this reason alone, I think brexit has to happen 31/10/19.

Thanks mate. All really interesting to me. 

[StevO]

19 minutes ago, RPG said:

The subsequent underhand tactics of the Remain brigade have been reprehensible and undemocratic.

Where as the previous underhand tactics of Leave.eu were just immoral, lies and illegal. 

[Palfy]

28 minutes ago, RPG said:

I am not trying to say I know what is best for UK - though I do have an opinion. But what I am most definitely saying is that democracy should be respected and the democratic outcome of the single biggest event in our electoral history is to leave EU. Simple as that. The subsequent underhand tactics of the Remain brigade have been reprehensible and undemocratic.

Most people are frightened of change and, as you say, most people in UK will not have the options that I do, or the experience of managing changes as I do. Yet, in the full knowledge of this, they still voted to leave this pernicious and toxic organisation called the European Union.

Talk, by itself,  is, indeed, cheap. But, even though I don't live in UK I do have many interests there which will affect me, for better or worse, post brexit. I also pay voluntary national insurance contributions and am a proud holder of a UK passport. So, in that regard I am more emotionally and financially invested (but only in £ million not £ billion and it is my money not yours that I am happy to 'gamble' with on brexit)  in UK than others that post on here who have gone on the record as placing no value in being British. Plenty of O2 in my cabin my friend!

Living outside UK also offers the advantage of seeing the decline in UK more starkly when I visit occasionally - compared to the 'boiling frog' syndrome which is experienced by most people who live in UK permanently - which is not their fault of course.

The present chancellor has said a no deal would have a cost to the Uk, when asked what he felt that cost would be he honestly answered he didn’t have a clue, but said he wanted a deal to minimise the unknown. 
You like the PM prefer a no deal don’t you feel that that would be a gamble that no one should take because so much is riding on it. 

[StevO]

28 minutes ago, RPG said:

There is a big difference. Please allow me to try to explain.

I think it fair to say that misleading statements came from both leave and remain camps BEFORE the referendum. This is no different to what we see in any General Election - JC promising to scrap student loans, 4 day working week etc.

BUT, once the General Election results are in, we trust the British people to have seen through any misleading comments and we accept the result of the General Election.

The same should be true (more true, even) of the single biggest voting issue in our electoral history and the result should be respected.

But, AFTER the result was declared there has been an ongoing campaign by remainers who do not have the good grace to accept that they lost and who try to subvert the democratic will of the people.

That is underhand and has forced Johnson to respond in kind. We should accept the result and move on. That is what the British people have always done and will continue to do. If anyone does not wish to continue being British then there are 27 other countries (likely to become 29 very soon) where you can go and live - though subsidising Northern Macedonia if it joins might make your eyes water a bit!

Personally I think the result should have been null and void as soon as the government inquiry was complete. If you win any election illegally for me that election should be void. Maybe I’m an idealist. 
 

I don’t think anyone has said they don’t want to be British though. If anyone, you’re the one who legged it three decades ago

[Palfy]

15 minutes ago, RPG said:

There is a big difference. Please allow me to try to explain.

I think it fair to say that misleading statements came from both leave and remain camps BEFORE the referendum. This is no different to what we see in any General Election - JC promising to scrap student loans, 4 day working week etc.

BUT, once the General Election results are in, we trust the British people to have seen through any misleading comments and we accept the result of the General Election.

The same should be true (more true, even) of the single biggest voting issue in our electoral history and the result should be respected.

But, AFTER the result was declared there has been an ongoing campaign by remainers who do not have the good grace to accept that they lost and who try to subvert the democratic will of the people.

That is underhand and has forced Johnson to respond in kind. We should accept the result and move on. That is what the British people have always done and will continue to do. If anyone does not wish to continue being British then there are 27 other countries (likely to become 29 very soon) where you can go and live - though subsidising Northern Macedonia if it joins might make your eyes water a bit!

A democratic society should also allow a wrong to be righted, and that’s why we should have a 2nd referendum if you believe in democracy and aren’t afraid of what ever the result would be, why would you not agree to a 2nd referendum that would show a fairer reflection of people’s beliefs now that a lot of the lies on both sides have been dispelled. 
After all it’s not very democratic to say fuck off you had your one and only opportunity, and although you now feel that you were lied to and that formed the choice you voted for you can’t change your mind, doesn’t feel very democratic to me. 
You need to stop holding on to the 1st referendum as the be all and end all, and be democratic enough to accept people have a right to change their mind, with a general election you are given that privilege every 4-5 years to right a wrong not so with this, so it’s imperative we get it right that’s being democratic. 

[Matt]

Having no sense of national pride does not equate seeing no value. I’m amazed that that needs explaining. 

Also, we have a difference in circumstances when it comes to visas etc. You’ve lived in countries where you’ve had to get permission to stay there. For years when I first moved abroad I didn’t, and even when I had to get one for Switzerland, I got my permit easier because I was both British and an EU citizen. 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, RPG said:

There is no wrong to be righted though, is there. You are confusing 'wrong' and 'losing!'

Had the vote been 52/48 in favour of remain I think we all know what the remainers mantra would be so I hope you understand my accusation of rank hypocrisy at all those who peddle this false argument.

And that sums you up completely in those few short sentences. 
Now go away again please and reflect on what you just said, and try to come back with a more democratic few, because the people on here who want to remain or want a 2nd referendum are far from being hypocrites. 
Once again you didn’t answer all the points just the one which you can easily argue, your not democratic you are a pompous bigot living a life that doesn’t reflect this country bye. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Personally I think the result should have been null and void as soon as the government inquiry was complete. If you win any election illegally for me that election should be void. Maybe I’m an idealist. 
 

I don’t think anyone has said they don’t want to be British though. If anyone, you’re the one who legged it three decades ago

From an idealist point of view I agree but if you did this you would open up a can of worms. There would be an investigation after every vote and then you also have to factor in whether it really matters. People aren't changing their mind over Brexit.

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

The present chancellor has said a no deal would have a cost to the Uk, when asked what he felt that cost would be he honestly answered he didn’t have a clue, but said he wanted a deal to minimise the unknown. 
You like the PM prefer a no deal don’t you feel that that would be a gamble that no one should take because so much is riding on it. 

I think that is just common sense from the Chancellor. The unknown is always going to potentially cost more than the known. I have seen a number of different projections, mainly from remainer sources but it is impossible to know how much Brexit will cost in the short, medium and long term. I would be very surprised if it didnt have an immediate short term negative effect, but how long that would last for I do not know. I don't see why it would be catastrophic though, and I suspect the a no deal Brexit is the most likely scenario for the UK to prosper in the long term (on the basis that customs union or similar is going to leave us worse off than no Brexit but without the possibility to make up for it that theoretically exist in a no deal Brexit situation).

The other thing that gets me is that even with a deal we then have to try and agree on how it actually works. There wont be any more certainty than there is now and we will be having all the same type of arguments in Parliament again and again. At least with a no deal we just have to buckle down and get on with it.

In respect of the backstop, I read this during the week. I have no idea whether it is true or not, its hard to tell who really is or isnt an expert these days and even if they are what their true intention is!

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/03/theres-nothing-complex-about-the-irish-border/

 

[StevO]

4 hours ago, RPG said:

One of our previous posters is quoted as saying he places no value on being British. His words, not mine.

Quote from Matt:

s that may (or may not) choose to remain in EU. I'm not at all proud to be English, I'm not patriotic, it's nothing something I see the point of. I was just pointing out that I'm not British. You wrote as though you think nationality and citizenship are the same, and they're simply not. 

Unquote:

I didn't 'leg it' as you like to call it. I got off my arse and went looking for work all over the world when there was none to be had for me at the time in UK. I subsequently made a success of the move and therefore decided to stay. But, you don't have to live in UK to be British, I have a vested interest in what happens in UK and I am still very proud of being British. Sadly, those qualities seem to be less evident from a substantial minority group within UK itself.

You know I was taking the piss right?

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

From an idealist point of view I agree but if you did this you would open up a can of worms. There would be an investigation after every vote and then you also have to factor in whether it really matters. People aren't changing their mind over Brexit.

Im not convinced people aren’t changing their minds. But what doesn’t help is the sheer amount of people who don’t know what happened with AggregateIQ, the press didn’t cover it at all. It’s one of the biggest politically underhanded acts of all of this countries history yet our press didn’t want to get involved. The same thing happened in the states, hardly covered over there. Only Channel 4 and Netflix have given it any publicity. If everyone knew what had happened I think there would be uproar. Even if only the targeted people changed their minds, or even just didn’t vote, the result goes the other way. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I would like to keep this polite but your post is the most condescending, arrogant remainer rubbish I have read for a long time.

I am entitled to my opinion and I stand by every word.

If that offends, well, you are entitled to be offended and I am entitled to my opinions.

Democracy has spoken and you lost. Put on your big boy pants and accept it please.

Either this forum is open for polite exchanges from opposite ends of the spectrum or it is not. If you want to inhabit a Remainer echo chamber then that is fine. I can go elsewhere and leave you to listen to what you want to hear.

But, if you can't help but respond to a contrary opinion in such a condescending and arrogant manner, then please don't dish out anything you can't take in return.

I would far rather keep it polite but it takes two to Tango!

 

Then go elsewhere and run like you did before, because you are making it personal by the hypocrisy jibe, you see I don’t see it as I personally lost I see it as the country has lost, I’m not disappointed about my personal loss, I’m disappointed for every ones loss , you parade yourself as the victor you make it sound like your own personal win you care about one person in this yourself. 
 

[StevO]

22 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Then go elsewhere and run like you did before, because you are making it personal by the hypocrisy jibe, you see I don’t see it as I personally lost I see it as the country has lost, I’m not disappointed about my personal loss, I’m disappointed for every ones loss , you parade yourself as the victor you make it sound like your own personal win you care about one person in this yourself. 

I was a winner at the time. Doesn’t feel like it now. 
 

but let’s keep it civil lads, this is TT, not parliament. Less of the name calling all round please. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

People aren't changing their mind over Brexit.

If the polls are anything to go by then they're changing their minds all the time, in both directions...huge amount of "don't know's" as well.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

[Palfy]

19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

If the polls are anything to go by then they're changing their minds all the time, in both directions...huge amount of "don't know's" as well.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

So wouldn’t it be more democratic in the light of were we are now nearly 3.5 years down the line, to let people have an opportunity to change their minds if they so wish to, in the light that they may feel more better informed as to how they should vote. 

[MikeO]

43 minutes ago, Palfy said:

So wouldn’t it be more democratic in the light of were we are now nearly 3.5 years down the line, to let people have an opportunity to change their minds if they so wish to, in the light that they may feel more better informed as to how they should vote. 

Preaching to the converted here Palfy, but we've been round the houses on this so many times I don't think any on here are going to shift their positions now (unlike the PM some are putting their faith in).

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Im not convinced people aren’t changing their minds. But what doesn’t help is the sheer amount of people who don’t know what happened with AggregateIQ, the press didn’t cover it at all. It’s one of the biggest politically underhanded acts of all of this countries history yet our press didn’t want to get involved. The same thing happened in the states, hardly covered over there. Only Channel 4 and Netflix have given it any publicity. If everyone knew what had happened I think there would be uproar. Even if only the targeted people changed their minds, or even just didn’t vote, the result goes the other way. 

I'm not sure people would change their mind knowing what happened and I think the acts of this Parliament are probably enforcing that opinion further.

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

If the polls are anything to go by then they're changing their minds all the time, in both directions...huge amount of "don't know's" as well.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

I don't know anyone that has changed their mind (or admitted to at least) from voting for to against. Not a big sample size I know. The main polls show a similar vote split to the result, the European election result suggested the same and when I watch Question Time and they do a poll of the crowd it's the same (albeit they are likely to be there because of their entrenched view). 

[MikeO]

2 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I don't know anyone that has changed their mind (or admitted to at least) from voting for to against.

Apart from the man you're quoting ahead of me, so that's one.

 

4 minutes ago, Bailey said:

when I watch Question Time and they do a poll of the crowd it's the same (albeit they are likely to be there because of their entrenched view)

I've been in the QT audience so can tell you the application form is very deep to get a balanced crowd, mine was even followed up by a phone call from a researcher!

Good fun though, they feed you well and pull people out of the crowd to take the place of the "panel" and do a light hearted "dummy" session before the real thing starts; also recorded a few hours before broadcast so I was home in time to watch my appearance! Actually been on the box four times over my lifetime.