Brexit...

[Matt]

8 hours ago, Bailey said:

What are people's thoughts on the Lib Dem stance to renege on Brexit if they won a general election? 

It's a bit of a contradictory stance but I think it is a smart one. Labour floundering, Tories will be full tilt Brexit so I expect them to sweep up a lot of the remain votes. 

It pissed me off, simply because it’s a power play. 

[Romey 1878]

55 minutes ago, Matt said:

It pissed me off, simply because it’s a power play. 

What else would you expect from those snivelling shitheads?

[Matt]

47 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

What else would you expect from those snivelling shitheads?

I know! 

The only benefit I see is that it would probably mean that the main 2 parties then become 3, and it would force the “revolution” that is needed.  There’d be no clear majority and neither Labour or the Conservatives would form an alliance with them. The other smaller parties? Not sure. Either way, I don’t think any one party or mix of parties would be able to form a majority. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Over 90 Labour strong Leave majority constituencies in the north of UK have Remain MPs. Most of those constituencies will be lost to the Brexit Party.

Bold statement that. 

Im not convinced the north west’s major cities would be running to the Brexit party. Certainly not Liverpool, Manchester or Leeds. I could be wrong but I just don’t see many going that far. 
 

The EU has done more for Liverpool as a city than a conservative government has for a long time. A large chunk of the regeneration money from the last few decades has come from Brussels rather than Westminster. 

[Formby]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The only benefit I see is that it would probably mean that the main 2 parties then become 3, and it would force the “revolution” that is needed.  

Hear, hear! But have we got it in us? We're overdue one.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, RPG said:

Well, I have many friends in Yorkshire and the north whose families have voted Labour for generations. I asked them how they would vote if an election was held tomorrow and would they consider the Brexit Party. The answers varied from a straight 'yes' to ''vote for the Brexit Party? - We've joined the Brexit Party!' Hartlepool council has lost its Labour majority for the first time in decades and is now run by a Brexit Party coalition, consisting of members who were previously Labour or Independent.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, I spoke to said that they would be voting Labour.

I do agree that the political landscape will change dramatically after the next election but I am not at all sure that it will be in a direction that Remainers will like. I am fairly certain that Labour will be the big losers and I think Corbyn knows it.

I do, of course, understand the pro EU, anti tory, sentiment coming from Liverpool but I don't think it will be anywhere near enough to affect a national vote in a General Election.

Sadly your right the Labour Party will lose seats and so will the Tories, both to the LibDems and the Brexit Party. 

I personally don’t see the Tories getting the majority they need to win the election out right, and even with a coalition of the DUP and Brexit Party, they could still struggle to win votes in the commons with Labour the LibDems SNP and independents voting against them. 

I really don’t see another General Election breaking the deadlock the Tories will win the most seats but no where near enough to go it alone, so for me there would be a greater chance of the Tories not being able to form a Government after the next election, and more chance of the other Parties doing so. 

[johnh]

5 hours ago, StevO said:

Bold statement that. 

Im not convinced the north west’s major cities would be running to the Brexit party. Certainly not Liverpool, Manchester or Leeds. I could be wrong but I just don’t see many going that far. 
 

The EU has done more for Liverpool as a city than a conservative government has for a long time. A large chunk of the regeneration money from the last few decades has come from Brussels rather than Westminster. 

The regeneration money cycle is:   UK taxpayers - UK government - EU - chunk returned to UK.   ie  its our own money returned.

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, johnh said:

The regeneration money cycle is:   UK taxpayers - UK government - EU - chunk returned to UK.   ie  its our own money returned.

Think the point being made is that had the EU not acted as middleman the money would more likely have remained in the South East rather than fund Northern regeneration. 

[johnh]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Think the point being made is that had the EU not acted as middleman the money would more likely have remained in the South East rather than fund Northern regeneration. 

Mike, it may, or it may not.  My point is, to give all the credit to the EU is nonsense.  The easiest activity on this planet is to spend other peoples hard earned money.

[pete0]

32 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, it may, or it may not.  My point is, to give all the credit to the EU is nonsense.  The easiest activity on this planet is to spend other peoples hard earned money.

There's no may about it. The tories purposely underfunded Liverpool and without the EU redirecting the funds to us there's no way we'd have managed to get that much investment from this government. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

Mike, it may, or it may not.  My point is, to give all the credit to the EU is nonsense.  The easiest activity on this planet is to spend other peoples hard earned money.

The same would apply to the UK government so I don't understand your point.

Actually I do because I know (and respect) your political view but I don't accept it; having a bucketful of billions and three bucketfuls of "worthwhile" places to allocate it to is anything but easy. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Sadly your right the Labour Party will lose seats and so will the Tories, both to the LibDems and the Brexit Party. 

I personally don’t see the Tories getting the majority they need to win the election out right, and even with a coalition of the DUP and Brexit Party, they could still struggle to win votes in the commons with Labour the LibDems SNP and independents voting against them. 

I really don’t see another General Election breaking the deadlock the Tories will win the most seats but no where near enough to go it alone, so for me there would be a greater chance of the Tories not being able to form a Government after the next election, and more chance of the other Parties doing so. 

I agree with the last bit in that Parliament will be more diverse (from a party perspective) than it has done for a long while. Whether that is a good or bad thing at a time like this I don't know.

I hadn't realised until last night that all of the main parties had campaigned for an EU referendum in the years preceeding the vote. I thought it was a Tory only thing, especially judged on the way some of the other parties have behaved in pointing the finger at Cameron. These politicians are a funny breed.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I hadn't realised until last night that all of the main parties had campaigned for an EU referendum in the years preceeding the vote.

I think it was an unwise and knee-jerk reaction to the extremely short lived small scale rise of UKIP that spooked them all; none of the parties thought for a moment that "out" stood a cat in hell's chance of winning, our current PM being one of them.

[StevO]

21 hours ago, RPG said:

Well, I have many friends in Yorkshire and the north whose families have voted Labour for generations. I asked them how they would vote if an election was held tomorrow and would they consider the Brexit Party. The answers varied from a straight 'yes' to ''vote for the Brexit Party? - We've joined the Brexit Party!' Hartlepool council has lost its Labour majority for the first time in decades and is now run by a Brexit Party coalition, consisting of members who were previously Labour or Independent.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, I spoke to said that they would be voting Labour.

I do agree that the political landscape will change dramatically after the next election but I am not at all sure that it will be in a direction that Remainers will like. I am fairly certain that Labour will be the big losers and I think Corbyn knows it.

I do, of course, understand the pro EU, anti tory, sentiment coming from Liverpool but I don't think it will be anywhere near enough to affect a national vote in a General Election.

Do you not think that the people you talk to might talk to you because they are like minded people? I have similar beliefs and views to a lot of my friends, not identical, but similar. People like people like themselves. There will be lots of people who are very different from you too. 

[StevO]

30 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, I don't think that the reason is because I talked to like minded individuals. In the past we have always held very different political opinions but, this time, I was staggered at the depth of feeling towards what they call the democratic betrayal by the Labour Party MPs of their electorates.

It is already starting to show in the polls.

https://ukupdates.co.uk/jeremy-corbyn-is-the-least-popular-opposition-leader-in-history/

Seems like you spoke to a collective who have already got their party stance ready to go if “they” call the the democratic betrayal by the Labour Party MPs of their electorates. They might not be like minded with you, but they are certainly like minded with each other.
 

Yet in Liverpool he is loved, he’s almost like a hero. Thousands turning up to hear him speak. 
 

He seems pretty popular in York, Manchester, Newcastle and Bristol according to this report. 
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-addresses-thousands-at-glasgow-protest-over-boris-johnson-s-plans-to-suspend-parliament-1-4995049

Personally, I’d never vote for him. I just don’t get him, I’d like him to turn up looking like his suit fits once in a while too. 

[MikeO]

From a personal point of view I've never come across anyone in real life I know who'd vote for Johnson, let alone Farage; far less join his vanity project. This may well be down to me only mixing with people (a myriad of them) who agree with my views. John I absolve from the list because although I've not met him I respect his rationale (have I said that before?).

None of them are Northerners as it happens, all are fairly affluent South dwellers who the right would describe as "lily livered Liberals" but they're my mates and I count myself as one of them. It's a place I'm comfortable in.

[johnh]

18 hours ago, MikeO said:

From a personal point of view I've never come across anyone in real life I know who'd vote for Johnson, let alone Farage; far less join his vanity project. This may well be down to me only mixing with people (a myriad of them) who agree with my views. John I absolve from the list because although I've not met him I respect his rationale (have I said that before?).

None of them are Northerners as it happens, all are fairly affluent South dwellers who the right would describe as "lily livered Liberals" but they're my mates and I count myself as one of them. It's a place I'm comfortable in.

Thanks for those kind words Mike, those sentiments are reciprocated.  What I do find rather odd (and I don't have an answer but suspect there are multiple reasons) is that the support for Farage and Johnson is in the Midlands and the North.  This support is Brexit related and I see most of the electorate returning to Party loyalties once the Brexit issue is resolved   -  except if Brexit is thwarted when all hell will break loose and we will be in uncharted territory.

[MikeO]

I can understand people voting for Brexit even if I disagree with them but I think anyone who votes for the Brexit party in a probable GE is several sandwiches and a pork pie short of a picnic, probably forgot to bring the blanket as well.

We'd be voting for a government to rule the country for the next five years so to consider electing someone whose sole purpose in life is to act on a single issue is insanity; can you imagine that gurning moron being our countries representative on the World stage? Makes Johnson appear Churchillian.

[Palfy]

8 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I can understand people voting for Brexit even if I disagree with them but I think anyone who votes for the Brexit party in a probable GE is several sandwiches and a pork pie short of a picnic, probably forgot to bring the blanket as well.

We'd be voting for a government to rule the country for the next five years so to consider electing someone whose sole purpose in life is to act on a single issue is insanity; can you imagine that gurning moron being our countries representative on the World stage? Makes Johnson appear Churchillian.

Quite right a general election will just see people vote for the candidate that represents their views on the EU not there party’s manifesto, so you will have less chance of seeing a fair result in what people really want a vote on a 2nd referendum. 

If we have a 2nd referendum first we can then have a general election to decide which party is best a quipped to steer us after the decision of the referendum. 

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

Quite right a general election will just see people vote for the candidate that represents their views on the EU not there party’s manifesto, so you will have less chance of seeing a fair result in what people really want a vote on a 2nd referendum. 

If we have a 2nd referendum first we can then have a general election to decide which party is best a quipped to steer us after the decision of the referendum. 

Thats all well and good but I doubt that just having a 2nd referendum will stop the Brexit issues. If you have a 2nd referendum and leave wins, do you think that will stop the Lib Dems, Green, SNP accepting it as part of their manifesto in a GE? Lib Dems have already said they will always campaign to remain regardless of a 2nd ref. Likewise, the Brexit Party and an arm of the Tories will also do the opposite should remain win.

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

Thats all well and good but I doubt that just having a 2nd referendum will stop the Brexit issues. If you have a 2nd referendum and leave wins, do you think that will stop the Lib Dems, Green, SNP accepting it as part of their manifesto in a GE? Lib Dems have already said they will always campaign to remain regardless of a 2nd ref. Likewise, the Brexit Party and an arm of the Tories will also do the opposite should remain win.

I believe a second referendum should only come about with guarantees attached and passed by parliament as a law that what ever the result it will be carried out, which will stop any side of the argument trying to derail what the public have voted for, which wasn't present with the last referendum so gave the MPs an opportunity to make it a personal decision as to whether we left or not.

So if we go the route of a general election you are again giving the decision to the MPs who we already know can't be trusted, they will change their views to suit their own personal rise with in the party they belong to, for me this would prove to be an unsatisfactory outcome with many thousands voting for MPs who say one thing yet do the reverse.

Nobody has yet to convince me that a 2nd referendum is not the safest way at this moment in time, to give the people final and definitive decision is surely the right way to go with two options in or out and no middle ground for a deal which would never be agreed in parliament, and would once again be used by any side of the argument to delay the process.

I trust the people more than the MPs to make the right decision, and I can't believe there are still people who trust that a General election giving parliament the power will resolve the issue fairly, hasn't the last three and a half years taught you anything, you cannot trust MPs.

[johnh]

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

I believe a second referendum should only come about with guarantees attached and passed by parliament as a law that what ever the result it will be carried out, which will stop any side of the argument trying to derail what the public have voted for, which wasn't present with the last referendum so gave the MPs an opportunity to make it a personal decision as to whether we left or not.

So if we go the route of a general election you are again giving the decision to the MPs who we already know can't be trusted, they will change their views to suit their own personal rise with in the party they belong to, for me this would prove to be an unsatisfactory outcome with many thousands voting for MPs who say one thing yet do the reverse.

Nobody has yet to convince me that a 2nd referendum is not the safest way at this moment in time, to give the people final and definitive decision is surely the right way to go with two options in or out and no middle ground for a deal which would never be agreed in parliament, and would once again be used by any side of the argument to delay the process.

I trust the people more than the MPs to make the right decision, and I can't believe there are still people who trust that a General election giving parliament the power will resolve the issue fairly, hasn't the last three and a half years taught you anything, you cannot trust MPs.

The problem with that Palfy is that those guarantees were given prior to the last referendum.  The fact that they may be enshrined in law only means that if Leave won again, Gina Miller and her ilk would spend millions proving the law was invalid.

[Bailey]

9 hours ago, Palfy said:

I believe a second referendum should only come about with guarantees attached and passed by parliament as a law that what ever the result it will be carried out, which will stop any side of the argument trying to derail what the public have voted for, which wasn't present with the last referendum so gave the MPs an opportunity to make it a personal decision as to whether we left or not.

So if we go the route of a general election you are again giving the decision to the MPs who we already know can't be trusted, they will change their views to suit their own personal rise with in the party they belong to, for me this would prove to be an unsatisfactory outcome with many thousands voting for MPs who say one thing yet do the reverse.

Nobody has yet to convince me that a 2nd referendum is not the safest way at this moment in time, to give the people final and definitive decision is surely the right way to go with two options in or out and no middle ground for a deal which would never be agreed in parliament, and would once again be used by any side of the argument to delay the process.

I trust the people more than the MPs to make the right decision, and I can't believe there are still people who trust that a General election giving parliament the power will resolve the issue fairly, hasn't the last three and a half years taught you anything, you cannot trust MPs.

I reiterate the points made by John but I also strongly doubt that Parliament would agree to have the possibility of a no deal Brexit within any referendum vote if it were to be passed into law. 

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, RPG said:

I do disagree with you there as a General Election will be a second referendum by Proxy and MPs will only be elected who will action the will of their constituencies - Leave or Remain.

A second referendum would achieve nothing as Party manifestos will be adhered to, even if contrary to a referendum result.

 

4 hours ago, johnh said:

The problem with that Palfy is that those guarantees were given prior to the last referendum.  The fact that they may be enshrined in law only means that if Leave won again, Gina Miller and her ilk would spend millions proving the law was invalid.

 

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

I reiterate the points made by John but I also strongly doubt that Parliament would agree to have the possibility of a no deal Brexit within any referendum vote if it were to be passed into law. 

Well boys all I can say to that if true we are well and truly stuffed, because MPs alone have proven they are incapable of sorting this out and change their stance like the wind. 

No party can agree whether Tory Labour or LibDem yet you still trust them to do what the people want and not to do what suits them, beyond me to be honest how you see that a General election will give you the result we all want which is a result, May thought she could call an election to gain majority government and look how that ended up, come on boys open your eyes to what’s really happening.  

[Bailey]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

 

 

Well boys all I can say to that if true we are well and truly stuffed, because MPs alone have proven they are incapable of sorting this out and change their stance like the wind. 

No party can agree whether Tory Labour or LibDem yet you still trust them to do what the people want and not to do what suits them, beyond me to be honest how you see that a General election will give you the result we all want which is a result, May thought she could call an election to gain majority government and look how that ended up, come on boys open your eyes to what’s really happening.  

Don't get me wrong Palfy, I don’t know if a GE will work either but if a majority can be achieved then they should be able to get something through Parliament. I very much doubt that a majority govt can be achieved though.

[markjazzbassist]

its always nice to pop in here every once in a while.  i despair at how fucked up the US is with Trump at the helm, so i come visit this thread and suddenly i don't feel so bad.  

[Matt]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

its always nice to pop in here every once in a while.  i despair at how fucked up the US is with Trump at the helm, so i come visit this thread and suddenly i don't feel so bad.  

No worries mate. Somehow Iran got thrown conveniently into the spotlight after one of the biggest arms buyers from our countries got attacked shortly after its sellers started to implode...

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

its always nice to pop in here every once in a while.  i despair at how fucked up the US is with Trump at the helm, so i come visit this thread and suddenly i don't feel so bad.  

We all have a cross to bare for you it’s Trump but you know one day it will be over at worst he can do one more term and you are then free, but I understand he could do a lot of damage between now and then. 

But for us if we leave the EU the pain will be felt for many years to come, but I’m pleased our woes make you feel a little better please come again your very welcome and thank you for the solidarity and recognition that we both have failed our own countries by ill considered votes, and when I say we I mean our country’s. 

[holystove]

holy crap. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261

It is now a fact that a prime minister with no electoral mandate or majority tried to unlawfully suspend parliament.  

(and yes this in the right thread)

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, holystove said:

holy crap. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261

It is now a fact that a prime minister with no electoral mandate or majority tried to unlawfully suspend parliament.  

(and yes this in the right thread)

(Stealing from the comments)

"A fantastic day for our democracy. If anyone wants to argue that the 11 top judges in the country all making a unanimous decision is wrong, there is no point in discussing anything."