Brexit...

[Palfy]

59 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Preaching to the converted here Palfy, but we've been round the houses on this so many times I don't think any on here are going to shift their positions now (unlike the PM some are putting their faith in).

Possibly very true, but we shouldn’t let a deceitful liar have a free reign we have to speak out, if not for ourselves but our children and their children. 
 

That is possible very true Bailey but let’s put it to the test and have a 2nd referendum then there can be no doubt it’s what the people want and not what the MPs want for themselves, I know you are going to say we already got what we voted for but we didn’t get anything in reality. 

19 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm not sure people would change their mind knowing what happened and I think the acts of this Parliament are probably enforcing that opinion further.

I don't know anyone that has changed their mind (or admitted to at least) from voting for to against. Not a big sample size I know. The main polls show a similar vote split to the result, the European election result suggested the same and when I watch Question Time and they do a poll of the crowd it's the same (albeit they are likely to be there because of their entrenched view). 

[Matt]

People are changing their minds.

people still have no idea what leaving the EU means. 

The referendum was by definition undemocratic

It is impossible to argue with any of that. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

People are changing their minds.

people still have no idea what leaving the EU means. 

The referendum was by definition undemocratic

It is impossible to argue with any of that. 

Even if people voted for a "deal" they still wouldn't know what they were voting for. 

Also FWIW the public were never voting to know the ins and outs of a deal or no deal. They were answering a philisophical question about whether they want to be a part of the EU or not. People voted no they didn't. It wasn't a do you want a customs union, do you want to be under ECJ jurisdiction, do you want free movement of people. If anything, the question itself is simple, out of the EU is being out of it all but that's the problem with this whole debate. 

[MikeO]

16 hours ago, Bailey said:

They were answering a philisophical question about whether they want to be a part of the EU or not.

I agree completely that was the case for a large proportion of the electorate, it certainly was for me and I respect anyone who voted leave on that basis. Problem for me (here we go round in circles again) is that the leave vote was carried by by people who don't know what "philosophical" means and were driven by the lies and the tabloids. Xenophobes and racists carried the day/swung the balance.

I think anyone intelligent who argues for Brexit and doesn't acknowledge that is being disingenuous.

[johnh]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

People are changing their minds.

people still have no idea what leaving the EU means. 

The referendum was by definition undemocratic

It is impossible to argue with any of that. 

People are more entrenched in their decisions.

People who voted remain have even less idea of what staying in the EU means.

The referendum vote was the largest democratic vote in election history.

See Matt, it wasn't impossible to argue with it.

[MikeO]

19 minutes ago, johnh said:

The referendum vote was the largest democratic vote in election history.

Oft quoted stat but misleading due to population increase, 72.2% turnout while the GE as recently as 1992 had 77.7%  and further back it was 83.9% in 1950. Smoke and mirrors again.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Oft quoted stat but misleading due to population increase, 72.2% turnout while the GE as recently as 1992 had 77.7%  and further back it was 83.9% in 1950. Smoke and mirrors again.

And also enhanced by direct social media targeting of people who initially didn’t have any intention of voting (according to their social media habits), therefore increasing the turn out. Obviously no direct numbers, but as it’s the only drum I bang in this debate I thought it could do with another bang. 

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, StevO said:

And also enhanced by direct social media targeting of people who initially didn’t have any intention of voting (according to their social media habits), therefore increasing the turn out. Obviously no direct numbers, but as it’s the only drum I bang in this debate I thought it could do with another bang. 

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

No, I won't let you get away with your false charges of bigotry and your condescending arrogant manner.

It is not about individual winners and losers rather it is about a collective victory for democracy. The UK is a democracy but it only remains one if the losing side has the good grace to accept the decisions which go against them.

On this occasion, many Remainers do accept the democratic outcome of the referendum (Piers Morgan being probably the most high profile) but there is a sad minority (and for the avoidance of doubt Palfy, yes, I include you in this group) who come across as (falsely) believing they are intellectually superior to everyone else, know best and everyone has to act on your opinions.

It's not going to happen Palfy. Get over it and stop talking down to people. You are no better than anyone else.

You need a severe reality check if the winners lied which you are not one of by the way, your an incidental bystander who Has come back here to bore the life out us once again, then I would say that isn’t democracy winning by false claims isn’t democratic in my book it maybe in yours, and that doesn’t surprise one bit that that is how you would operate in your daily life. 

And if people want the opportunity to change their minds because they feel they were misled, tell me why shouldn’t they have that opportunity in a democratic society, the remain and leave parties left the doors open for a contested result due to lies leading up to the vote. 
The PM you admire so much has been caught lying again no wonder you like him so much a chip off the block springs to mind. 
And for the record I don’t for one minute consider myself intellectually superior all though I am flattered you think me so. 
Why did you come back last time you left you were going to the police, what happened did they tell you to do one and go grow some. 
And be honest your the one who thinks he superior than anyone else, you’ve got the charisma of burnt piece of toast, once again in your last post you have accused me of everything you do, but being a pompous bigoted person you can’t see it. 

[Matt]

On 06/10/2019 at 20:32, Bailey said:

Even if people voted for a "deal" they still wouldn't know what they were voting for. 

Also FWIW the public were never voting to know the ins and outs of a deal or no deal. They were answering a philisophical question about whether they want to be a part of the EU or not. People voted no they didn't. It wasn't a do you want a customs union, do you want to be under ECJ jurisdiction, do you want free movement of people. If anything, the question itself is simple, out of the EU is being out of it all but that's the problem with this whole debate. 

Which is why it was never a question for the population. If this has been proposed a project, with a clear plan, I’d have much less of an issue. Still disagree with it but at least there’d be actual facts to work on

anyway, apologies but I’m trying to take a break from all this. Found out yesterday that I will be unemployed by end of January next year and moving back is a possibility/probability.

[Matt]

On 06/10/2019 at 20:55, johnh said:

People are more entrenched in their decisions.

People who voted remain have even less idea of what staying in the EU means.

The referendum vote was the largest democratic vote in election history.

See Matt, it wasn't impossible to argue with it.

Sorry, John. First point I can agree with but that’s a result of circumstances. Second point isn’t true, for obvious reasons. Third is also not true for also obvious reasons 

[johnh]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Sorry, John. First point I can agree with but that’s a result of circumstances. Second point isn’t true, for obvious reasons. Third is also not true for also obvious reasons 

Matt re the second point.  Please advise me what plans the EU has for the next five years?  I say five years because that is the period of the fixed-term parliament in the UK and Party manifesto's have to cover this period.  I appreciate  you may have difficulty as the EU don't produce manifesto's,  all done behind closed doors.  Still, you seem confident that remainers know more about the future in the EU so give it  a go.  Best of luck. 

 

 

[MikeO]

"There is no plan for no deal because we're going to get a great deal"

- Boris Johnson, speaking in the Commons, July 2017

[pete0]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

Which is why it was never a question for the population. If this has been proposed a project, with a clear plan, I’d have much less of an issue. Still disagree with it but at least there’d be actual facts to work on

anyway, apologies but I’m trying to take a break from all this. Found out yesterday that I will be unemployed by end of January next year and moving back is a possibility/probability.

That's shit mate. Hopefully you'll find something soon. 

[pete0]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-economy-brexit-boris-johnson-institute-fiscal-studies-growth-exports-a9146386.html?fbclid=IwAR0sp-HT5w1-Yoa1K0YiZkOVJWGxbcGJc8waRVWwg0AoKBl8QCupNPQ-c2Y

[MikeO]

58 minutes ago, RPG said:

The only people claiming they or others were misled are the losers Palfy.

And StevO.

But he's just one person and I'm sure he's the only one of the 17m+ leave voters to have noticed the deception, so let's ignore him eh?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

No Palfy,

You need the reality check.

I am not an incidental bystander by any means. I may not live in UK but I have many interests (financial and personal) within UK which I am backing in post brexit UK.

The only people claiming they or others were misled are the losers Palfy. It's any underhand excuse to try to subvert democracy isn't it! It's been a common remainer failing since leave won the referendum.

Trying to tar me with the same questionnable brush as someone whom I have never met is a new low, even for you Palfy. I won't respond as your comment is not worthy of one.

I don't think you are intellectually superior. I think you think you are intellectually superior. Big difference pal.

I came back because I reminded myself how polite most people were and the issue was really only with an insignificant minority. Sadly, you are not most people.

I do not think of myself as superior or inferior to anyone else. But I do have zero respect for bullies, especially the keyboard warrior type such as yourself.

Your last para is good for a laugh but not really worthy of a response either.

You really don't like it when people question your self righteousness do you Palfy?

I would far rather debate the issues politely, as I have with other posters so if you could remind yourself what good manners look like perhaps you could refrain in future from wasting bandwidth with the adolescent comments?

Thanks.

You keep using the phrase losers when you refer to people who voted remain, that’s playground talk to push yourself forward as a winner which your not , your ego and estimation of yourself is so big it’s embarrassing to read.

Of course I don’t mind people questioning my stance or beliefs, if I worried about that the last place I would be is on a forum putting myself in that position, it’s not that I don’t like people it’s I don’t like you simple as that really, you have come back as the same pompous bigot as you were the last time you were here  

And if you think you can call me a hypocrite and then expect me to show you any respect you are highly mistaken, I will treat you with the contempt you deserve and take great pleasure in doing so.

So bring it on winner.

 

[Palfy]

20 minutes ago, RPG said:

Palfy, the Remain camp has been trying to ignore reality and change the narrative, unsuccessfully I miight add, for over 3 years.

It is quite proper and accurate and fair to state that Remain lost the referendum. I appreciate that the truth hurts the die hard Remain camp but it is still a democratic fact that Remain lost. Perhaps we wouldn't need to remind you so much if Remain could accept the outcome of the largest democratic exercise in the electoral history of our country. One of the basic concepts of democracy is consent of the losers to the majority decision. Today's pc left wing values of everyone being a winner and nobody really loses do not work in the real world and, very soon I think, the Remain camp are going to have to face up to that.

I would far rather work amicably with the Remain camp to help play our small part in shaping post brexit UK. But, before that can happen, the die hard Remainers have to first accept that there WILL be a post brexit UK and must stop their anti democratic manouvreing. The Remain strategy so far seems to have been to deliberately create as big a mess as possible and then try to blame it on brexit. The current mess has nothing to do with brexit or democracy and everything to do with sore losers.

Most (not all) things about the Remain argument smack of rank hypocrisy Palfy so if you think the cap fits please feel free to wear it, Loser!

Democracy shouldn’t be contaminated by outrageous blatant lies, that are being told to mislead people.

We have more acts in statuary law to protect people from mis selling of house hold products vehicles insurances, just look at PPIs, yet if someone feels that they wish to change their mind because they believe they have been misled to making a decision on Brexit you believe they shouldn’t be afforded that right , even if they could highlight the false claim that led them to vote in the way they did, no matter what side of the divide they are on in a democracy that would seem a basic right in my opinion. 
And if you believe that for every one leaver who now wants to remain there are ten who wanted to remain but now want to leave, put it to the test have the 2nd referendum. 

[pete0]

What were the main brexit points? 

NHS - proven to be a lie

We'd get a deal that was in our favour straight away - lie - to the point the pm broke the law to try and force a no deal. 

We'd be better off - lie - left egg on faces of the ministers. People are worse off, the pound is falling and there's job uncertainty. Of the big 4 only one accountancy firms said the UK will be okay, but reading into it they basically say because we'll have a flexible work force i.e. we'll give employees shitter terms and shitter wages. 

Oh there was the billboards that were blatantly racist propaganda too. Also lies. 

Winning without an ounce of integrity and zero chance of fulfilling your promise is hardly enough to then hide behind the will of the people. There should be another vote and a large majority of the Brexit party should be in prison for misleading the public and the racist propaganda. 

[MikeO]

5 hours ago, RPG said:

Not at all. But for every SteveO,  I suggest there are at least 10 Piers Morgans.

Democracy has to be respected Mike and democracy has spoken.

I've acknowledged on many occasions that people on both sides have changed their opinion, though if you think it's 10/1 you need to wake up; just pointing out your assertion that, "The only people claiming they or others were misled are the losers.." was/is completely false.

[StevO]

18 hours ago, RPG said:

The only people claiming they or others were misled are the losers Palfy. It's any underhand excuse to try to subvert democracy isn't it! It's been a common remainer failing since leave won the referendum

I claim others were mislead by leave.eu more than anyone else on here I think, there is a government inquiry if you don’t believe it to be fact, I’m a leave voter. So I, for one, can confirm that your post above is not accurate. 
 

Thanks. 

[StevO]

17 hours ago, MikeO said:

And StevO.

But he's just one person and I'm sure he's the only one of the 17m+ leave voters to have noticed the deception, so let's ignore him eh?

Maybe I’m the only leave voter to do the research Mike. Never been a fan of burying my head in the ground, even if it was the result I wanted back then. 

[StevO]

8 hours ago, RPG said:

Not at all. But for every SteveO,  I suggest there are at least 10 Piers Morgans.

Democracy has to be respected Mike and democracy has spoken.

Democracy wasn’t respected. If you really think it was can you tell me what it is that leave.eu did? Do you actually know what acts they carried out? I assume you must because you think democracy was carried out. 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, pete0 said:

What were the main brexit points? 

NHS - proven to be a lie

We'd get a deal that was in our favour straight away - lie - to the point the pm broke the law to try and force a no deal. 

We'd be better off - lie - left egg on faces of the ministers. People are worse off, the pound is falling and there's job uncertainty. Of the big 4 only one accountancy firms said the UK will be okay, but reading into it they basically say because we'll have a flexible work force i.e. we'll give employees shitter terms and shitter wages. 

Oh there was the billboards that were blatantly racist propaganda too. Also lies. 

Winning without an ounce of integrity and zero chance of fulfilling your promise is hardly enough to then hide behind the will of the people. There should be another vote and a large majority of the Brexit party should be in prison for misleading the public and the racist propaganda. 

For me the NHS thing wasn’t even a lie, people who weren’t a government saying how money could be spent. The winner of the vote couldn’t have carried this through regardless. 
 

I agree with the rest though Pete. 
 

But the biggest lies were told online, if you weren’t targeted you wouldn’t even know. It’s scandalous. 

[StevO]

49 minutes ago, RPG said:

To quote Churchill. 'Democracy is a terrible way to run a country - until you consider the alternatives!'

In this case, yes, there was undoubted misinformation from both sides but I trust the UK electorate to have seen through it and make a fair decision - just as they do in every General Election. To not respect the democratic outcome leads us straight to one of the 'alternatives' that Churchill referred to.

I’m asking if you know specifically what Leave.eu did?

[Sibdane]

I've been reading this thread for awhile now without making any comment, but the one thing I can add is that just because something was "democratically" elected doesn't mean that it should be an absolute. That's why we have term limits, because things change. Look at the USA and Trump. He won an election, but there is a reason why he'll have to go up for re-election; people change their minds when they can see the true effect of a particular outcome.

Just my thoughts.  

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

I've been reading this thread for awhile now without making any comment, but the one thing I can add is that just because something was "democratically" elected doesn't mean that it should be an absolute. That's why we have term limits, because things change. Look at the USA and Trump. He won an election, but there is a reason why he'll have to go up for re-election; people change their minds when they can see the true effect of a particular outcome.

Just my thoughts.  

 

Exactly. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

If you mean chapter and verse into the most detailed minutae, then no, of course not. I am, of course, aware of the social media issues, the bus, etc but lets also look at Remain and Project Fear. Recession immediately if we dared to vote leave, 800,000 job losses almost immediately if we dared to vote leave. An immediate austerity budget if we voted leave. It was all misinformation but does not justify a rerun of the referendum. We should have more faith in ourselves and the rest of the British people to sort the wheat from the chaff and to have made a decision which fairly represents their wishes.

I honestly believe that happened, notwithstanding the misinformation from both sides.

And both leavers and remainers have more of clearer understanding now after nearly 3.5 years, and if they wish to change their minds they must be given the opportunity to do so, because they won’t get to in 5,10,15 or 20 years. 
Why would you deny anyone that right. 
And for the record you never dared to vote leave you never had a vote so you cannot be inclusive of the we. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

If you mean chapter and verse into the most detailed minutae, then no, of course not. I am, of course, aware of the social media issues, the bus, etc but lets also look at Remain and Project Fear. Recession immediately if we dared to vote leave, 800,000 job losses almost immediately if we dared to vote leave. An immediate austerity budget if we voted leave. It was all misinformation but does not justify a rerun of the referendum. We should have more faith in ourselves and the rest of the British people to sort the wheat from the chaff and to have made a decision which fairly represents their wishes.

I honestly believe that happened, notwithstanding the misinformation from both sides.

So do you know what they did on social media specifically? Rather than changing the subject. Also, do you know they broke the law on more than one occasion?