holystove Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 This is unbelievable. The first clip shows him lying for something he prepared for, the second one lying answering something unexpected. How could anyone vote for this person? MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Matt said: Yes, I think it is a representative democracy in the sense that the people elect an MP who do right for the country and by them, and sometimes that the people won’t like the decisions. The latter part being tough shit, it’s how the system works. If they are simply to be a public servant as you mentioned, then their role is pointless and might as well scrap parliament and go to a direct democracy completely. I don’t see any advantage in this unofficial middle ground The basis of our democracy is that MP's are servants of the people, not the people servants of MP's. I didn't agree with Tony Benn on most things but found his five questions concerning MP's. apposite. 1. What power have you got? 2. Where did you get it from? 3. In whose interests do you exercise it? 4. To whom are you accountable? 5. How can we get rid of you? The fact is, Leave won the democratic referendum vote. At the next election, the manifesto's of both the Tory and Labour parties stated that they would honour the referendum result. That accounted for approximately 80% of the votes cast. Parliament then voted to invoke Article 50 with an overwhelming majority. Anything which tries to usurp that is undemocratic, there is no logical argument against it. And just to remind you, the referendum question was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Chach said: Yeah that would be one interpretation I've asked you 8 times to name the jobs created, you not embarrassed commenting on one of my posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 51 minutes ago, johnh said: The basis of our democracy is that MP's are servants of the people, not the people servants of MP's. I didn't agree with Tony Benn on most things but found his five questions concerning MP's. apposite. 1. What power have you got? 2. Where did you get it from? 3. In whose interests do you exercise it? 4. To whom are you accountable? 5. How can we get rid of you? The fact is, Leave won the democratic referendum vote. At the next election, the manifesto's of both the Tory and Labour parties stated that they would honour the referendum result. That accounted for approximately 80% of the votes cast. Parliament then voted to invoke Article 50 with an overwhelming majority. Anything which tries to usurp that is undemocratic, there is no logical argument against it. And just to remind you, the referendum question was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. OK John but just to throw a hypothetical out there, one that's extremely unlikely to happen I know but I'd be interested to hear what you think... General Election happens in the near future and the Liberal Democrats win an overall majority or are the largest party and form a government with the SNP, Change (or whatever they're now called), Plaid Cymru and Green, all of those parties having remain in their manifesto. Are they then still democratically bound to abide by the referendum result because it was the will of the people in 2016 or are they democratically bound to carry out their manifesto and revoke Article 50 because it might be that the electorate have changed their mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, johnh said: The basis of our democracy is that MP's are servants of the people, not the people servants of MP's. I didn't agree with Tony Benn on most things but found his five questions concerning MP's. apposite. 1. What power have you got? 2. Where did you get it from? 3. In whose interests do you exercise it? 4. To whom are you accountable? 5. How can we get rid of you? The fact is, Leave won the democratic referendum vote. At the next election, the manifesto's of both the Tory and Labour parties stated that they would honour the referendum result. That accounted for approximately 80% of the votes cast. Parliament then voted to invoke Article 50 with an overwhelming majority. Anything which tries to usurp that is undemocratic, there is no logical argument against it. And just to remind you, the referendum question was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. Fair enough John, I’m not going to argue because we’ll go round and round. Just remember that no one “won” regardless of how many times you and others insist, and when an estimated 3 million expats were refused a vote (like myself) forgive me if I fail to see the democracy, especially as it’s against the basic grounds of British democracy. As for the stupidity of the government making it a yes no question, that in itself is reason enough to make it void, regardless of the illegality of it. Edit: supposed legality if I’m to be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 30 minutes ago, MikeO said: OK John but just to throw a hypothetical out there, one that's extremely unlikely to happen I know but I'd be interested to hear what you think... General Election happens in the near future and the Liberal Democrats win an overall majority or are the largest party and form a government with the SNP, Change (or whatever they're now called), Plaid Cymru and Green, all of those parties having remain in their manifesto. Are they then still democratically bound to abide by the referendum result because it was the will of the people in 2016 or are they democratically bound to carry out their manifesto and revoke Article 50 because it might be that the electorate have changed their mind? And that is why it needs to go back to the people for a once and for all referendum, to see how people feel with more facts and truths at there disposal. After all why should it only be MPs who are allowed to switch their beliefs and vote accordingly, it uis abundantly clear that this will not be agreed on by parliament who continually turn it into a party issue and not a country issue. Give it back to the people to decide with a bill attached to it stating that what ever the outcome it cannot be challenge and must be ratified no ifs no buts. What other way forward is there, I speak as someone who wishes to remain but expect leave to prevail after another vote, and great I would go along with that and happily leave in the knowledge that the leavers had 90% of the answers and still chose to leave, and with a bill attached to it no party or person could fight it, now wouldn’t that be blissful. StevO, Chach and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 46 minutes ago, Palfy said: And that is why it needs to go back to the people for a once and for all referendum, to see how people feel with more facts and truths at there disposal. After all why should it only be MPs who are allowed to switch their beliefs and vote accordingly, it uis abundantly clear that this will not be agreed on by parliament who continually turn it into a party issue and not a country issue. Give it back to the people to decide with a bill attached to it stating that what ever the outcome it cannot be challenge and must be ratified no ifs no buts. What other way forward is there, I speak as someone who wishes to remain but expect leave to prevail after another vote, and great I would go along with that and happily leave in the knowledge that the leavers had 90% of the answers and still chose to leave, and with a bill attached to it no party or person could fight it, now wouldn’t that be blissful. Exactly. This is why I primarily want a second referendum; not just because it gives a chance to undo something stupid (in my opinion) but people are so much better informed of the consequences now, either way. Trouble is, you’d have to make it a yes no question again, in the interests of being consistent. To add several options will just create more confusion, even if I think itd give a better representation of people’s opinions. I know I’m being hypocritical in saying this, but if this is the route British democracy is going, evolving from what I believe it is from letter of the law to what it’s become, then so be it. Let’s just not have a yes no opinion poll driven by lies and deceit but then managed by politicians who cannot be trusted have such a negative effect on the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 https://twitter.com/Dempster2000/status/1169977168333590530/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 3 hours ago, MikeO said: OK John but just to throw a hypothetical out there, one that's extremely unlikely to happen I know but I'd be interested to hear what you think... General Election happens in the near future and the Liberal Democrats win an overall majority or are the largest party and form a government with the SNP, Change (or whatever they're now called), Plaid Cymru and Green, all of those parties having remain in their manifesto. Are they then still democratically bound to abide by the referendum result because it was the will of the people in 2016 or are they democratically bound to carry out their manifesto Mike and revoke Article 50 because it might be that the electorate have changed their mind? Mike In the unlikely event of the hypothetical happening, they would have to propose a second referendum. I am not fussed with this as Leave would walk it. Remain are backing off a second referendum in the same way Corbyn is backing off an election. I see he is following Blair's advice! I wonder who will be pulling his strings next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt said: Exactly. This is why I primarily want a second referendum; not just because it gives a chance to undo something stupid (in my opinion) but people are so much better informed of the consequences now, either way. Trouble is, you’d have to make it a yes no question again, in the interests of being consistent. To add several options will just create more confusion, even if I think itd give a better representation of people’s opinions. I know I’m being hypocritical in saying this, but if this is the route British democracy is going, evolving from what I believe it is from letter of the law to what it’s become, then so be it. Let’s just not have a yes no opinion poll driven by lies and deceit but then managed by politicians who cannot be trusted have such a negative effect on the country. Yes, I agree. A second referendum - bring it on. Same choice as last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt said: Exactly. This is why I primarily want a second referendum; not just because it gives a chance to undo something stupid (in my opinion) but people are so much better informed of the consequences now, either way. Trouble is, you’d have to make it a yes no question again, in the interests of being consistent. To add several options will just create more confusion, even if I think itd give a better representation of people’s opinions. I know I’m being hypocritical in saying this, but if this is the route British democracy is going, evolving from what I believe it is from letter of the law to what it’s become, then so be it. Let’s just not have a yes no opinion poll driven by lies and deceit but then managed by politicians who cannot be trusted have such a negative effect on the country. Exactly how I see it a simple vote two options leave or remain with nothing in the middle to complicate matters. But definitely some bill to say final say and no going back, because the last vote created no winners just losers and if leavers think they won I’d love to know what they believe they won, because if what’s happening now is what they voted for then they are truly losers. So let’s go again and put this bollocks to bed once and for all. Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, johnh said: Mike In the unlikely event of the hypothetical happening, they would have to propose a second referendum. I am not fussed with this as Leave would walk it. Remain are backing off a second referendum in the same way Corbyn is backing off an election. I see he is following Blair's advice! I wonder who will be pulling his strings next week. Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense. Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him. StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, johnh said: Yes, I agree. A second referendum - bring it on. Same choice as last time. Obviously polls have been wrong in recent times but appears a bit close to call at the mo. Chach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, MikeO said: Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense. Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him. Well the key is how the electorate will see it. Corbyn has been pushing hard for an election for some time. He's now backing off, frightened of losing as he's 10 points behind in the polls. That's how the electorate will see it - he's a loser. He also changes is mind like his underwear depending upon whose pulling his strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 5 hours ago, johnh said: The basis of our democracy is that MP's are servants of the people, not the people servants of MP's. I didn't agree with Tony Benn on most things but found his five questions concerning MP's. apposite. 1. What power have you got? 2. Where did you get it from? 3. In whose interests do you exercise it? 4. To whom are you accountable? 5. How can we get rid of you? The fact is, Leave won the democratic referendum vote. At the next election, the manifesto's of both the Tory and Labour parties stated that they would honour the referendum result. That accounted for approximately 80% of the votes cast. Parliament then voted to invoke Article 50 with an overwhelming majority. Anything which tries to usurp that is undemocratic, there is no logical argument against it. And just to remind you, the referendum question was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. Just to be sure, you’ve still not answered my question about leave.eu John, after calling my comment stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 25 minutes ago, MikeO said: Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense. Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him. I completely understand where your coming from but if we remained on the basis of politicians being elected we would have the same arguments, parliament wouldn’t agree the electorate wouldn’t agree and as now a stalemate would pursue, let’s just go back to the people with a simple in or out no deals before we leave, that way it’s done and the people have decided not the politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, MikeO said: Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense. Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him. Interesting that you say that. I've noticed that the Trump coverage has dropped over here as well, and I've seen a lot more of Johnson these last couple of weeks than I seen of any other foreign politician before in such a time span... well besides Putin and Jong-un. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 13 hours ago, johnh said: Yes, I agree. A second referendum - bring it on. Same choice as last time. Thought you were dead against it? Can’t believe we actually agree on something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt said: Thought you were dead against it? Can’t believe we actually agree on something! No, what I was against was the options the Remainers wanted on the vote, always carefully thought out to give them an advantage. I want the same choice as before, Leave or Stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 On 05/09/2019 at 13:17, StevO said: Leave.eu destroyed democracy The reason I didn't respond was your comment wasn't worthy of a response. Explain how Leave.eu destroyed domocracy? Your post indicates that they have already done so. How? They have no legislative or Parliamentary power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 4 hours ago, johnh said: No, what I was against was the options the Remainers wanted on the vote, always carefully thought out to give them an advantage. I want the same choice as before, Leave or Stay. Fair enough sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt said: Fair enough sir Matt, One of the reasons I think Leave would walk a second referendum (regardless of what the polls say) is that the two worst PM's in living memory (even worse than May), - Blair and Major - are backing Remain. This will cost Remain a couple of million votes, particularly in the midlands and north. A Leave campaign slogan such as 'A vote for Remain is a vote for the London Liberal Elite' should garner another million or so. Remain should make sure that these guys and their ilk stay well away, but, of course, they are all buddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 Another Conservative with a conscience, who'd have thought it? They're dropping like flies. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 7, 2019 Report Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeO said: Another Conservative with a conscience, who'd have thought it? They're dropping like flies. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737 Amber Rudd leaving the party is a massive blow to the Conservative party, she was a well respected politician who was held in great esteem by all sides. Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU stands a greater chance of taking what remains of the Conservative party out of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 13 hours ago, johnh said: Matt, One of the reasons I think Leave would walk a second referendum (regardless of what the polls say) is that the two worst PM's in living memory (even worse than May), - Blair and Major - are backing Remain. This will cost Remain a couple of million votes, particularly in the midlands and north. A Leave campaign slogan such as 'A vote for Remain is a vote for the London Liberal Elite' should garner another million or so. Remain should make sure that these guys and their ilk stay well away, but, of course, they are all buddies. See, I don’t see either side walking it anymore. I think Remain will pip it because people have short memories. The older demographic may remember Blair and Major but the majority of people will only remember as far back as or concentrate on Cameron’s era (such is society today). Then there’s also the age demographic which, in 3 years has millions more youth becoming legible to vote (no guarantees they will though) with around 1.5 million natural deaths since 2016 (sorry, it’s a very morbid way of looking at it). guess we’ll never know unless we get a second though. Oh, and all citizens getting a say this time please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 12 hours ago, Palfy said: Amber Rudd leaving the party is a massive blow to the Conservative party, she was a well respected politician who was held in great esteem by all sides. Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU stands a greater chance of taking what remains of the Conservative party out of power. Palfy, that was an odd choice of phrase. 'Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU'? He is just doing what people voted for in the democratic referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 22 hours ago, johnh said: The reason I didn't respond was your comment wasn't worthy of a response. Explain how Leave.eu destroyed domocracy? Your post indicates that they have already done so. How? They have no legislative or Parliamentary power. By false advertising on people’s social media to stir up racial hatred and convince vulnerable people of things that would happen if we didn’t leave. On an absolutely massive scale, they spent millions employing Cambridge Analytica to do this for them. There was such a scandal around it that there was government inquiry into the firm and the inquiry stated at the end that we will never be able to have a fair election ever again after what they did, such was the damaging but every effective work they carried out. When a government inquiry states that a fair election can never happen again I’d say that pretty damaging to democracy. I’d love to know your thoughts on how fair you think that it. But I suspect you didn’t even know it happened and thus you don’t really care. As a leave voter it makes me feel sick that that is how they won. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, johnh said: Palfy, that was an odd choice of phrase. 'Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU'? He is just doing what people voted for in the democratic referendum. Yes he might be but not in away I would want any part of, let’s remember he voted against May in her attempts to get a deal across the table, yet any one who did it to him he’s thrown out the party. John I know you’re a Tory but surly you are middle of the road Tory, who is more in tune with the 21 sacked and Rudd, even if you may not have agreed with their stance on the EU surly you wouldn’t have did what the far right did. We both agree that the last referendum is now dead so to say he is only doing what the people voted for doesn’t mean a jot that vote has been diluted by politicians of all parties, so we all need to stop flogging a dead horse and have the second referendum, with 2 options stay or leave and tied by law that it cannot be apposed. I feel Johnstone has a better chance at this moment in time of destroying the Conservative party than leaving the EU, we saw the Johnstone faithful out side of Parliament the other day batting the remainers in a aggressive manner, definitely far right racist thugs on the march given a legitimacy from the likes of Johnstone and Rees-Mogg, if that’s your brand of Tory Party you’re welcome to it but not for me mate, that would be the nearest thing in my opinion to voting for Trump Hitler or Stalin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Palfy said: Yes he might be but not in away I would want any part of, let’s remember he voted against May in her attempts to get a deal across the table, yet any one who did it to him he’s thrown out the party. John I know you’re a Tory but surly you are middle of the road Tory, who is more in tune with the 21 sacked and Rudd, even if you may not have agreed with their stance on the EU surly you wouldn’t have did what the far right did. We both agree that the last referendum is now dead so to say he is only doing what the people voted for doesn’t mean a jot that vote has been diluted by politicians of all parties, so we all need to stop flogging a dead horse and have the second referendum, with 2 options stay or leave and tied by law that it cannot be apposed. I feel Johnstone has a better chance at this moment in time of destroying the Conservative party than leaving the EU, we saw the Johnstone faithful out side of Parliament the other day batting the remainers in a aggressive manner, definitely far right racist thugs on the march given a legitimacy from the likes of Johnstone and Rees-Mogg, if that’s your brand of Tory Party you’re welcome to it but not for me mate, that would be the nearest thing in my opinion to voting for Trump Hitler or Stalin. Palfy, I don't agree that the last referendum is dead, not sure where you got that from? Regarding the votes against May's deal, there were probably more Remainers voted against than Leavers. I wonder why? Regarding you comparison of the Tory Party with Trump, Hitler or Stalin. I think you need to delete Stalin from that if you don't wish to upset Corbyn and his henchmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 6 hours ago, johnh said: Palfy, I don't agree that the last referendum is dead, not sure where you got that from? Regarding the votes against May's deal, there were probably more Remainers voted against than Leavers. I wonder why? Regarding you comparison of the Tory Party with Trump, Hitler or Stalin. I think you need to delete Stalin from that if you don't wish to upset Corbyn and his henchmen. possibly, to be honest I’m not happy with Corbyn so much so that I feel like that for the first time in my life I cannot see me voting for Labour, trust me John when that day comes it will be one of the saddest days of my life, more because I feel rightly or wrongly I would have in some way let the memory of my parents down. It’s been over 3 years and we are no further forward than day one, trust me John it’s done we cannot go any further with the original referendum, the politicians are playing party politics and won’t come together to make any movement possible in any direction, so therefore I think it’s fair to say it’s dead. StevO and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.