Brexit...

[pete0]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

 

*Butts wall*

What jobs? What industry? What companies? How much they paying in these new jobs? 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

The UK Tech Industry has received record foreign investment (mainly from USA and Asia) of £5.5 billion in the first 8 months of this year. Many jobs created as a consequence.

Is this not a case of posters politics trying to shape a non existent economic pitch?

We get investment in part to being in the EU. There'll be a lot more strings attached from the US if we leave. 

1 hour ago, johnh said:

What is the youth unemployment in some EU member states?  Greece,  Italy, Spain.  Take your time.  (In modern times it is a scandal).

 

 

Don't see your point? 

We exploit the youth passing them as little as £4 an hour. Most lucky to get £9, very lucky if that's full time as well. 

Comp up the average wages of an under 30 and you'll find they are on the breadline. 

[pete0]

7 hours ago, RPG said:

For every £ we get from EU we contribute almost £2 in membership fees. There is no such thing as EU money. It is recycled members money once the fat cats in Brussels (or is it Strasbourg this week) have had their cut. In short, there will be more money available to invest in UK industry post brexit than pre brexit.

We will also benefit from investment as a result of bilateral deals that, at the moment, are either impossible or nigh on impossible.

You do realise that half them deals are EU related and if we try to undercut the EU we might get better deals elsewhere but at the cost of half our business with the EU. Plus the deals won't be as good as the other county will know we're desperate. 

[Palfy]

Let’s be honest about deals and trade with the EU, the reality is on that subject the EU is Germany. 

Merkel will decide what happens on deals and trade, because they are the country who will be propping the EU up and will stand to lose the most if they can’t freely trade with us, we import a hell of a lot more from the EU than we export to them and the biggest percentage of the imports are from Germany. 

This will severely hurt the German economy which is teetering now, does anyone really think that German citizens will give a shit about more than 50% of the other members who’s net value to the EU is 0%, if they are losing their jobs or their standard of living is going down and yet there still pumping billions more than anyone else in the coffers of the EU , 

I would say the least of our worries will be trade deals whether we leave with a deal or no deal, because they need to sell to us. 

And if people don’t believe Merkel or Germany make the final decisions then ask Macron, he’s been told to shut up and do as your told on many occasions in the last couple of years, if gives the big speech on what he’s going to do and not do when it comes to us, and then votes in the complete opposite way when Merkel reins him in. 

[holystove]

Brexit really is Syriza for slow learners 

[pete0]

4 hours ago, RPG said:

Once again, I think you do UK a disservice and should have more faith. Many, many countries that we are currently unable to do business with are lining up to sign post brexit trade deals with us.

But ask yourself this. If EU really is so strong and UK really is so weak, why is EU so desperate to prevent us leaving?

UK will thrive and prosper outside EU. EU will struggle without our substantial net contributions. And the EU knows it. It is doing a good job of not showing it. But it knows.

Most economists say otherwise and a lot of funding reliant places are fearful for their future, especially the researchers. 

We're both stronger together. Eu is weaker without us, but just look at the pound to see we're the ones who'll come out worse. 

[MikeO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49543430

Conservative MPs have been warned not to rebel against the government over Brexit, as opposition MPs plan legislation to stop no deal.

A senior source from the whips office - which ensures MPs vote in line with the party - said MPs who voted to block no deal would "destroy" the government's Brexit negotiating position.

Rebels will have the whip withdrawn and be deselected, the source said.

Former Tory MP Nick Boles said the move meant the "hard right has taken over".

Brought to you by the Tories who defied the whip themselves to block the government's exit agreement. Not a whiff of hypocrisy there at all then.

[Chach]

17 hours ago, pete0 said:

*Butts wall*

What jobs? What industry? What companies? How much they paying in these new jobs? 

https://www.ft.com/content/36baacce-ddd0-11e8-9f04-38d397e6661c

Now stop trying to deflect and respond to the fact that you posted a fake news site where a loony twitter activist is attributing bogus job losses to something that hasn't happened.

[Chach]

6 hours ago, RPG said:

UK will thrive and prosper outside EU. 

What time frame are you putting on this, what will be the extent of the initial contraction assuming no deal and what mechanisms/actions do you think will lead to the eventual thriving?

[johnh]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

Most economists say otherwise and a lot of funding reliant places are fearful for their future, especially the researchers. 

We're both stronger together. Eu is weaker without us, but just look at the pound to see we're the ones who'll come out worse. 

pete0,  Have a Google and check what the pound was (to the US dollar) when we joined the EU.

[Chach]

Professor Michael Dougan, Jean Monnet Chair in EU Law, University of Liverpool, outlines the challenges faced by the UK and then the options available. 

Been up since January and has less than 7k views, Gove was right about one thing, "people have had had enough of experts"

 

 

 

[MikeO]

53 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think this could be a master stroke by Johnson. Expel the rebels, replace them with brexiteers, have a General Election and get the working and reliable majority that he wants and needs. And, he has some convenient scapegoats to blame for the election being necessary.

And, if handled correctly, we still leave EU 31/10/19.

You can call it a "masterstroke" all you like, and it may work, but it's unquestionably hypocrisy of the highest order (again) and undemocratic (again). Reprehensible for me.

[Chach]

2 minutes ago, RPG said:

I don't doubt his expertise but the problem with most experts is that they invariably either have their own agenda or are the victims of various lobby groups.

I think that over 3 years of debate and negotiations is enough. It's time!

You didn't watch it though did you, there's been no debate. Just people shouting at each other about things they haven't got a clue about.

 

[Chach]

15 minutes ago, MikeO said:

You can call it a "masterstroke" all you like, and it may work, but it's unquestionably hypocrisy of the highest order (again) and undemocratic (again). Reprehensible for me.

Plot twist:

Corbyn blocks a GE before Brexit and the UK crashes out with no deal. In the ensuing clusterfuck Labour win a GE and free of the capitalist shackles of the EU socialises everything. 

[johnh]

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

We get investment in part to being in the EU. There'll be a lot more strings attached from the US if we leave. 

Don't see your point? 

We exploit the youth passing them as little as £4 an hour. Most lucky to get £9, very lucky if that's full time as well. 

Comp up the average wages of an under 30 and you'll find they are on the breadline. 

Not sure if you ever looked up the youth unemployment figures for EU southern member states. Here are the 2019 figures,

Greece  40.4%

Spain     31.7%

Italy        30.5%

I'm sure they'd give their eye teeth to have the opportunities our lads have.  As I said, it is scandalous, in modern times, that this situation prevails.  Of course, it is partly self-inflicted via joining the euro.  The currency that favours Germany and not many others.  Being stuck in the euro means that they cannot resolve their financial problems and those youth unemployment figures a likely to be cast in stone.

[Tonsta]

Can anyone tell me or was it more false news, 75% of MPs represent seats that voted to leave?

[johnh]

8 hours ago, pete0 said:

Most economists say otherwise and a lot of funding reliant places are fearful for their future, especially the researchers. 

We're both stronger together. Eu is weaker without us, but just look at the pound to see we're the ones who'll come out worse. 

Pete0, just checked, in 1973 when we joined the EU (in the structure it then was) the average conversion rate  for sterling against the US dollar was 2.40.  Didn't half dive while we were members of the EU.

[pete0]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Not sure if you ever looked up the youth unemployment figures for EU southern member states. Here are the 2019 figures,

Greece  40.4%

Spain     31.7%

Italy        30.5%

I'm sure they'd give their eye teeth to have the opportunities our lads have.  As I said, it is scandalous, in modern times, that this situation prevails.  Of course, it is partly self-inflicted via joining the euro.  The currency that favours Germany and not many others.  Being stuck in the euro means that they cannot resolve their financial problems and those youth unemployment figures a likely to be cast in stone.

Opportunities to earn less than their parents whilst working for more years. Opportunities to line the pockets of the UK landlords. I don't see how comparing us to these other countries is relevant. We're a rich nation exploiting our work force. Compare us to the baltics. 

5 hours ago, RPG said:

And the far extreme left of Corbyn is far more dangerous to the country than a right of centre tory party imho.

What is dangerous about an extreme left? Social happiness, fair wages and less crime. Scary! 

7 hours ago, Chach said:

https://www.ft.com/content/36baacce-ddd0-11e8-9f04-38d397e6661c

Now stop trying to deflect and respond to the fact that you posted a fake news site where a loony twitter activist is attributing bogus job losses to something that hasn't happened.

Deflect? I've asked you 6 times, you're making me sound like a Liverpool fan now ffs. 

Can't read the article but the headline doesn't make me feel like it answers what the boom is. Acute labour shortages 

5 hours ago, RPG said:

Again, I disagree. A slightly weaker (than in very recent years) £ is fantastic for exports. The EU has been slowly bleeding UK dry by using our substantial net contributions, inter alia, to subsidise 'poorer' countries, who, in turn have been able to persuade industry to relocate from UK. It is like paying vast amounts of money to be in a club that does nothing but make you weaker.

It's time to get out before we are taken past the point of no return.

Bleed us dry? The EU has put more money into Liverpool than the UK government has. How's that compared to a tory managed decline cutting all the budgets. 

5 hours ago, johnh said:

pete0,  Have a Google and check what the pound was (to the US dollar) when we joined the EU.

Already answered you on that one John. Said the world is a much smaller place now. We have no where near the power we once had either and it'll diminish further if we leave. 

 

[MikeO]

4 hours ago, RPG said:

The biggest hypocrisy was perpetrated by Parliament itself which is trying to reverse a democratic decision which it outsourced to the people yet Parliament doesn't even have the decency to admit to its own agenda.

If Johnson has to suffer calls of hypocrisy from a few people to achieve the outcome that we democratically voted for then that is a price well worth paying. The latest polls indicate that the electorate agree and are actually in favour of his course of action.

So the end justifies the means in your book, fair enough; but personally I don't want a morally bankrupt compulsive liar in number 10 (with Dominic Cummings pulling his strings) at any cost.

Been on the road most of the day but heard a sensible (in my view anyway) take on the situation from one of the Tory "rebels" Alistair Burt. Made a lot of sense to me, here's one he did on Channel 4 last night.

 

[pete0]

23 minutes ago, RPG said:

What is dangerous about the extreme left is that it drives businesses, entrepreneurs and money out of the country. It causes high inflation, high interest rates, high taxation, high unemployment, strikes and riots. The last left wing government we had in the 1970's  (nowhere near as extreme left wing as Corbyn) had to go cap in hand to the IMF for a loan. I call that very dangerous.

You choose to look at Liverpool not the entire country. The fact of the matter is that we put almost £2 into EU for every £1 we get back. I can agree that more government spending, post brexit, in Liverpool is a good idea but the absolute fact of the matter is that UK will have far more £ to spend on UK post brexit than it does at the moment.

We've not had a left in my lifetime. I see the left as Sweden, Denmark etc. And it's hard to see a reason not to follow them. 

As for unemployment is skewed by exploiting workers in this country. I don't see why a fair wage is too much to ask for. 

History shows the tory party is financially worse than Labour. Surely them plus brexit is more terrifying than a man who wants to privatise and stop bleeding money out of the UK. Privatisation also means cheaper prices so more disposable income to get the economy booming. 

Having more money wouldn't make a difference with this government, doesn't care about the rest of the UK. If not for the EU London would be pathed with gold whilst the rest of the UK struggled even more. 

[johnh]

31 minutes ago, MikeO said:

So the end justifies the means in your book, fair enough; but personally I don't want a morally bankrupt compulsive liar in number 10 (with Dominic Cummings pulling his strings) at any cost.

Been on the road most of the day but heard a sensible (in my view anyway) take on the situation from one of the Tory "rebels" Alistair Burt. Made a lot of sense to me, here's one he did on Channel 4 last night.

 

No deal is  a mealy mouthed excuse for 'no Brexit'.  They haven't got the guts to admit that is their objective.

[pete0]

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10220252550012273&id=1483630780&set=a.4693422821890&source=48

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, johnh said:

No deal is  a mealy mouthed excuse for 'no Brexit'.  They haven't got the guts to admit that is their objective.

He's voted for Brexit at every opportunity (unlike Johnson et al) despite campaigning for remain, how does that square with 'no Brexit' being his objective?

[MikeO]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

I certainly agree that a post brexit tory government needs to look at the geographical distribution of government funding in UK and I think Johnson has already acknowledged that much work needs to be done in that area.

....and of course experience tells us that he's a thoroughly trustworthy chap who'll doubtless follow through on that throwaway remark. Even if it were a 'pledge' or a 'promise' I'd not believe it for a minute.

[pete0]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think there is some merit in what you say but I would not in any way describe Sweden or Denmark as far left. Left of centre to left maybe, but not extreme far left like Corbyn. And, though the msm are reluctant to report it, Sweden has massive problems as a result of its high welfare payments attracting immigrants. Finances are at breaking point, law and order has broken down in some towns and even the most placid indigenous population are saying 'enough!'

A fair wage is entirely desirable. The problem is that the term 'fair' is subjective and means different things to different people. There is no point in a government imposing a high minimum wage if all it does is force businesses to shut down and/or relocate outside UK.

I certainly agree that a post brexit tory government needs to look at the geographical distribution of government funding in UK and I think Johnson has already acknowledged that much work needs to be done in that area.

Sweden had a vote on their welfare system and chose to keep paying the high taxes. Think it's a bit skeptical to say the benefits are attracting migrants. The majority of migrants go for opportunities. 

I don't see what is fearful about Corbyn. Many of the baltic's have said they find it strange as he'd be a normal candidate for them. 

I'm not one for minimum wage, it has the opposite effect. Businesses used to be more inclined to pay a fair wage, more so if there was a union. But now you have places like Sainsbury's making billions yet paying minimum wage. 

Would you trust them to though? Especially Johnson who labelled Liverpool as wallowing in its own victimisation or something on the lines of that even though he had full knowledge that his party purposely under funded us.

[holystove]

4 hours ago, RPG said:

What is dangerous about the extreme left is that it drives businesses, entrepreneurs and money out of the country. It causes high inflation, high interest rates, high taxation, high unemployment, strikes and riots. The last left wing government we had in the 1970's  (nowhere near as extreme left wing as Corbyn) had to go cap in hand to the IMF for a loan after they had spent all the taxpayers money and more. I call that very dangerous.

You choose to look at Liverpool not the entire country. The fact of the matter is that we put almost £2 into EU for every £1 we get back. I can agree (and would enthusiastically advocate) that more government spending, post brexit, in Liverpool is a good idea but the absolute fact of the matter is that UK will have far more £ to spend on UK post brexit than it does at the moment.

That's a bit tough on Corbyn as a lot of people would call that an accurate description of Brexit.   Today your PM tried to make a speech in front of 10 Downing Street but was drowned out by chants of "stop the coup", while yesterday one of his Cabinet said government wouldn't automatically respect laws passed by Parliament, which the PM himself suspended to push through his policies.  I'd say Corbyn can't be much more disruptive to the economic and social cohesion in the UK.

I'm all for being upbeat about Brexit (I hope it all works out for the UK and EU), but at some point its time to face reality.  The UK is a services based economy (80%); there has never been an FTA between two countries (or blocs) that covered services in any meaningful way. Countries are not waiting in line to do a trade deal with the UK; to the contrary numerous countries are refusing to roll over their EU deal for the UK (until they see what the EU-UK relationship will be) or offering worse terms. Only Trump seems interested as it is his policy to support anything that weakens the EU (which Brexit definitely does). Even the most ambitions FTA with the US will only add 2% to GDP (as opposed to the massive drop from leaving your primary market).  The UK is fifth in per capita contributions to the EU, but the anual beneftis from EU membership (increased tax take, membership numerous agencies, horizon programmes, etc) far outweigh the cost. etc. etc. etc.

Brexit might be a good idea in the long run, who knows.  But you can only get there if people aren't deluded but rather up front and honest about the consequences of a crash out Brexit and realistic about the (short to middle term) future. 

[Chach]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

Deflect? I've asked you 6 times, you're making me sound like a Liverpool fan now ffs. 

Can't read the article but the headline doesn't make me feel like it answers what the boom is. Acute labour shortages

 

Do you think it's helping your cause that you posted fake news you hadn't read that confirms your bias then fail to acknowledge it when it's shown to be fake?

 

[Chach]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'm not one for minimum wage, it has the opposite effect. Businesses used to be more inclined to pay a fair wage, more so if there was a union. But now you have places like Sainsbury's making billions yet paying minimum wage. 

You sound like a left winger who hasn't heard the left wing argument for Brexit, how do you think you create wage growth Pete? With unlimited amounts of labour?

Why do you think Corbyn has been a eurosceptic his whole life, you can't even have unions if you've got unlimited cheap labour sources, they just don't work.

[pete0]

41 minutes ago, Chach said:

Do you think it's helping your cause that you posted fake news you hadn't read that confirms your bias then fail to acknowledge it when it's shown to be fake?

 

 

22 minutes ago, Chach said:

You sound like a left winger who hasn't heard the left wing argument for Brexit, how do you think you create wage growth Pete? With unlimited amounts of labour?

Why do you think Corbyn has been a eurosceptic his whole life, you can't even have unions if you've got unlimited cheap labour sources, they just don't work.

You keep deflecting. I asked you first and now for the 7th time.... 

Acknowledged, it's not 100% correct. However it still had proof jobs were lost. Something you seem to deny or claim it's just a big cowinkydink. 

Our rich are getting richer. They can afford to pay more wages. More wages creates more spending, which creates more jobs. 

[Chach]

3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

You keep deflecting. I asked you first and now for the 7th time.... 

Acknowledged, it's not 100% correct. However it still had proof jobs were lost. Something you seem to deny or claim it's just a big cowinkydink. 

Zero deflection from me, I made no claims other than employment had risen to your claim it had fallen, the jobs market is constantly in a state of change, most companies go broke over time jobs are constantly being lost and replaced that doesn't mean it's a result of the referendum.