Brexit...

[Palfy]

Quality 

[MikeO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728

[johnh]

10 hours ago, MikeO said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728

Just a thought.  If all the products supplied by the EU are delayed then their payments will be delayed.   If the delay causes perishable products to go past their sell-by date, then they wont get paid at all.  Probably wont bother Brussels but I think it will bother member states.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

Just a thought.  If all the products supplied by the EU are delayed then their payments will be delayed.   If the delay causes perishable products to go past their sell-by date, then they wont get paid at all.  Probably wont bother Brussels but I think it will bother member states.

That'll be a comfort to the schoolkids.

[johnh]

4 hours ago, MikeO said:

That'll be a comfort to the schoolkids.

Just an example as to why it wont last very long.  Also, we know that the kid's will take priority.  I don't mind going on a diet for a couple of months.

[holystove]

7 hours ago, johnh said:

Just a thought.  If all the products supplied by the EU are delayed then their payments will be delayed.   If the delay causes perishable products to go past their sell-by date, then they wont get paid at all.  Probably wont bother Brussels but I think it will bother member states.

UK needs EU goods, so can't afford to stop them at border. EU products will pass unchecked so delays should be minimal.  Goods coming the other way, into the EU, however will be stopped at the border. 

On services it's the other way around.  EU needs the UK services industry (banking).  Even in the event of no-deal, UK service providers can keep servicing the EU until Frankfurt/Paris/Dublin/.. are ready to take over the London-role of being the financial centre of the EU.

 

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Just an example as to why it wont last very long.  Also, we know that the kid's will take priority.  I don't mind going on a diet for a couple of months.

We've come a long way from 'we hold all the cards' , 'sunlit uplands', ...   Is this what you voted for?  Is this what anybody voted for?

 

[holystove]

This is great 

[johnh]

18 hours ago, holystove said:

UK needs EU goods, so can't afford to stop them at border. EU products will pass unchecked so delays should be minimal.  Goods coming the other way, into the EU, however will be stopped at the border. 

On services it's the other way around.  EU needs the UK services industry (banking).  Even in the event of no-deal, UK service providers can keep servicing the EU until Frankfurt/Paris/Dublin/.. are ready to take over the London-role of being the financial centre of the EU.

 

We've come a long way from 'we hold all the cards' , 'sunlit uplands', ...   Is this what you voted for?  Is this what anybody voted for?

 

Well we only need EU goods until we source them from new trade deals. With some EU countries on the verge of recession, eg Germany, Italy.  any disruption to their trade will concentrate minds -  in member states if not in Brussels.  I don't think the EU's financial centre is going to make many waves, particularly when several EU banks are in danger of folding, particularly Deutche (sp) Bank, which is already on life-support.

On your second point, you obviously don't understand 'irony'. 

[Palfy]

On 20/08/2019 at 19:08, holystove said:

UK needs EU goods, so can't afford to stop them at border. EU products will pass unchecked so delays should be minimal.  Goods coming the other way, into the EU, however will be stopped at the border. 

All though I voted remain and still wish too please do not under estimate the British resolve, if we have to dig in and face a period of hardship we will, so please don’t think for one moment we will allow your goods to come flooding in whilst you hold ours up. 

Through history we have proven to be a nation with a will to fight and defend our liberties, being an island as made us more stronger, these are the qualities that a lot of main land Europeans don’t possess, so in my view if you implement what you have said the EU citizens would not be prepared  to put up with a trade war with us if it meant their financial position deteriorated, where as you will find we would if it wasn’t an even playing field. 

So please don’t harbour the view that we need you more than you need us because you would be highly mistaken, and personally I’m ready for the stand off if it happens and we will suffer, but the Germans will suffer the most and if they suffer you all suffer. 

And one good thing for me is that French will struggle and we all know that if French citizens face any form of hardship they take to the streets, but on a positive note we will hopefully see a huge decline in terrible French cars on our roads

[holystove]

On 21/08/2019 at 14:37, johnh said:

Well we only need EU goods until we source them from new trade deals. With some EU countries on the verge of recession, eg Germany, Italy.  any disruption to their trade will concentrate minds -  in member states if not in Brussels.  I don't think the EU's financial centre is going to make many waves, particularly when several EU banks are in danger of folding, particularly Deutche (sp) Bank, which is already on life-support.

On your second point, you obviously don't understand 'irony'. 

I think when, over your all-Marmite Christmas dinner, you finally understand the difference between the disruption of leaving a unified market and the marginal benefit of an FTA, you'll find that, in fact, irony is dead. 

 

19 hours ago, Palfy said:

All though I voted remain and still wish too please do not under estimate the British resolve, if we have to dig in and face a period of hardship we will, so please don’t think for one moment we will allow your goods to come flooding in whilst you hold ours up. 

Through history we have proven to be a nation with a will to fight and defend our liberties, being an island as made us more stronger, these are the qualities that a lot of main land Europeans don’t possess, so in my view if you implement what you have said the EU citizens would not be prepared  to put up with a trade war with us if it meant their financial position deteriorated, where as you will find we would if it wasn’t an even playing field. 

So please don’t harbour the view that we need you more than you need us because you would be highly mistaken, and personally I’m ready for the stand off if it happens and we will suffer, but the Germans will suffer the most and if they suffer you all suffer. 

And one good thing for me is that French will struggle and we all know that if French citizens face any form of hardship they take to the streets, but on a positive note we will hopefully see a huge decline in terrible French cars on our roads

What the hell are you talking about Palfy?  I point out that it is in the economic intrest of the UK to keep its borders open to goods which it doesn't produce (as Johnson has said), in the same way the EU will keep its market accessible to UK services that the EU can't provide itself, and you set off on this rant about UK Blitzkrieg spirit stating 'facts' that don't make any sense whatsover.   It's a true mark of British exceptionalism that being treated as any other third country by the EU is interpreted as an act of war. 

 

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, holystove said:

I think when, over your all-Marmite Christmas dinner, you finally understand the difference between the disruption of leaving a unified market and the marginal benefit of an FTA, you'll find that, in fact, irony is dead. 

 

What the hell are you talking about Palfy?  I point out that it is in the economic intrest of the UK to keep its borders open to goods which it doesn't produce (as Johnson has said), in the same way the EU will keep its market accessible to UK services that the EU can't provide itself, and you set off on this rant about UK Blitzkrieg spirit stating 'facts' that don't make any sense whatsover.   It's a true mark of British exceptionalism that being treated as any other third country by the EU is interpreted as an act of war. 

 

If you stop our goods at the border as a show of power we will stop your goods at the border, it will not be all one way traffic, call it war if you like but you can be sure of one thing we will enjoy our marmite dinner  in the safe knowledge that you are suffering as well. 

So put your big stick attitude away and don’t believe that you hold all the power because you don’t, the biggest power in the EU is on the brink of a recession the French are rioting the Italians are close to recession and could likely be the next to leave. 

We will survive as an independent nation and if we can’t do free trade with you we will find other partners to trade with, this would have huge implications for the rest of Europe, but your problem is because you fear that we might flourish and do well as a country, you are trying to put as many obstacles in the way as possible to try and make sure that doesn’t happen, because if it did it could spell disaster for the direction the EU is taking. 

Your argument of we will do this to you but you can’t do this to us has certainly got my back up, and is making me consider whether I really want to be part of something that has that small minded way of attitude, I could go a lot stronger but in the interest of harmony for the moment I won’t. 

[johnh]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

If you stop our goods at the border as a show of power we will stop your goods at the border, it will not be all one way traffic, call it war if you like but you can be sure of one thing we will enjoy our marmite dinner  in the safe knowledge that you are suffering as well. 

So put your big stick attitude away and don’t believe that you hold all the power because you don’t, the biggest power in the EU is on the brink of a recession the French are rioting the Italians are close to recession and could likely be the next to leave. 

We will survive as an independent nation and if we can’t do free trade with you we will find other partners to trade with, this would have huge implications for the rest of Europe, but your problem is because you fear that we might flourish and do well as a country, you are trying to put as many obstacles in the way as possible to try and make sure that doesn’t happen, because if it did it could spell disaster for the direction the EU is taking. 

Your argument of we will do this to you but you can’t do this to us has certainly got my back up, and is making me consider whether I really want to be part of something that has that small minded way of attitude, I could go a lot stronger but in the interest of harmony for the moment I won’t. 

Well said Palfy.   The problem with the EU is that there are two completely separate elements. The unelected elite in Brussels and member states. Recessions don't half concentrate minds. Brussels will not be affected and will continue with their ideology.  Member states are in the real world and recession will hit hard, not only on trade but on banking systems and the euro. There is strong opinion in the financial world that the euro will not survive another recession.  There will inevitably be conflict between Brussels and member states.  We just need to be well clear of it when it all kicks off.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, johnh said:

Well said Palfy.   The problem with the EU is that there are two completely separate elements. The unelected elite in Brussels and member states. Recessions don't half concentrate minds. Brussels will not be affected and will continue with their ideology.  Member states are in the real world and recession will hit hard, not only on trade but on banking systems and the euro. There is strong opinion in the financial world that the euro will not survive another recession.  There will inevitably be conflict between Brussels and member states.  We just need to be well clear of it when it all kicks off.

And also to add to that you have people in the rest of Europe like holystove who genuinely believes that, we will allow their goods to come in with no hold ups whilst ours are stopped. 

 Do they really think we are a bunch of spineless desperate no hopers who will take that on the chin, if so they have a shock coming. 

[MikeO]

On 23/08/2019 at 14:59, Palfy said:

And also to add to that you have people in the rest of Europe like holystove who genuinely believes that, we will allow their goods to come in with no hold ups whilst ours are stopped. 

 Do they really think we are a bunch of spineless desperate no hopers who will take that on the chin, if so they have a shock coming. 

Is that Vera Lynn I can hear in the background?

Anyway hope those Brexiteers are happy jumping into deals with the most dim-witted global leader ever, unless you count ours as a global leader in which case they come joint last.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49462613

[Palfy]

14 hours ago, MikeO said:

Is that Vera Lynn I can hear in the background?

Anyway hope those Brexiteers are happy jumping into deals with the most dim-witted global leader ever, unless you count ours as a global leader in which case they come joint last.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49462613

It’s got zero to do with who the leader is, what I’m saying is that they can fuck off with the attitude that they will stop our goods at their  borders in the knowledge that their goods will be freely flooding in. 

And if anyone whether a remainer or a Brexiteer thinks that’s acceptable then they are spineless, and there’s fuck all wrong with being patriotic and believing in your country and the spirit of it’s people and not just it’s leaders, so if that makes you think of Vera Lynn and the values people held then then good tell me what’s wrong with that. 

[Chach]

22 minutes ago, Palfy said:

It’s got zero to do with who the leader is, what I’m saying is that they can fuck off with the attitude that they will stop our goods at their  borders in the knowledge that their goods will be freely flooding in. 

And if anyone whether a remainer or a Brexiteer thinks that’s acceptable then they are spineless, and there’s fuck all wrong with being patriotic and believing in your country and the spirit of it’s people and not just it’s leaders, so if that makes you think of Vera Lynn and the values people held then then good tell me what’s wrong with that. 

The point he's making is you will have no regulations so you will be able to allow in goods that you need, the EU will still have all the same regulations it had before Brexit so will have to stop goods at the border just as they do with any country that doesn't have a deal with them.

Holystove has been been pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1, as everyone else has become more and more extreme in their position. Untwist your knickers mate

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

The point he's making is you will have no regulations so you will be able to allow in goods that you need, the EU will still have all the same regulations it had before Brexit so will have to stop goods at the border just as they do with any country that doesn't have a deal with them.

Holystove has been been pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1, as everyone else has become more and more extreme in their position. Untwist your knickers mate

Chach  you are completely wrong mate about what he said. 

Dispassionate information since page 1 do your homework mate he’s made clear since day 1 what side of the fence he’s on and he’s given his own personal opinions on the matter. 

I’ll untwist my knickers and you stop spouting rubbish

[MikeO]

37 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Chach  you are completely wrong mate about what he said. 

Dispassionate information since page 1 do your homework mate he’s made clear since day 1 what side of the fence he’s on and he’s given his own personal opinions on the matter. 

I’ll untwist my knickers and you stop spouting rubbish

Which side of the fence do you think he's on?

[Palfy]

19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Which side of the fence do you think he's on?

The one that doesn’t want us to be successful if we leave with no deal, the one that wants to but obstacles in our way to try and make sure we don’t succeed without a deal. 

But I'm sure he can speak for himself Mike. I remember in the past when I had a disagreement with Holystove you jumped into defend his character on the basis he couldn’t be possibly wrong because you wrongly thought he was an EU lawyer, so there for he couldn’t possibly be wrong and he was and I know you won’t like it but I was right. 

So what words of wisdom are you going to tell me now.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

The one that doesn’t want us to be successful if we leave with no deal, the one that wants to but obstacles in our way to try and make sure we don’t succeed without a deal. 

But I'm sure he can speak for himself Mike. I remember in the past when I had a disagreement with Holystove you jumped into defend his character on the basis he couldn’t be possibly wrong because you wrongly thought he was an EU lawyer, so there for he couldn’t possibly be wrong and he was and I know you won’t like it but I was right. 

So what words of wisdom are you going to tell me now.

See that's the fundamental difference here Palf; I've never once seen him wish us ill or want to put obstacles in our way (as if he could?) or to make sure we don't succeed, be really interested if you could find evidence suggesting otherwise because I can remember none.

The EU lawyer thing the mistake I made was that while he's a lawyer who used to work in/have an interest in/study EU law he'd moved on from that (that's my memory of it anyway, he'll correct me if I'm wrong).

Far from what you're suggesting his viewpoint from the start was that while Brexit would be bad for Britain, it would be good for the remaining 27 because of the privileged  status we held in the group so he, as a Belgian, was pleased we were off.

I agree with @Chach that he's been, "pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1".

I'd never suggest my opinion amounted to "words of wisdom" though, they are simply my opinion.

Actually having a glance back at page one confirms my memory of @holystove.

"Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out."

The post does pre-date you joining the site by four months so maybe that's how you missed it.

[johnh]

32 minutes ago, MikeO said:

See that's the fundamental difference here Palf; I've never once seen him wish us ill or want to put obstacles in our way (as if he could?) or to make sure we don't succeed, be really interested if you could find evidence suggesting otherwise because I can remember none.

The EU lawyer thing the mistake I made was that while he's a lawyer who used to work in/have an interest in/study EU law he'd moved on from that (that's my memory of it anyway, he'll correct me if I'm wrong).

Far from what you're suggesting his viewpoint from the start was that while Brexit would be bad for Britain, it would be good for the remaining 27 because of the privileged  status we held in the group so he, as a Belgian, was pleased we were off.

I agree with @Chach that he's been, "pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1".

I'd never suggest my opinion amounted to "words of wisdom" though, they are simply my opinion.

Actually having a glance back at page one confirms my memory of @holystove.

"Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out."

The post does pre-date you joining the site by four months so maybe that's how you missed it.

I agree on the Holystove issue.  Even though I don't agree with all he says, his posts are always well thought out and valuable, because he does have an insight into how everything works in the EU.  If  UK goods exported to the EU are delayed because of technical issues, then those issues will have to be resolved.  Which they will be in time.  However, if UK goods are delayed due to the EU playing silly beggars, then there will be a massive boycott of EU goods into the UK. (at least 52%).  I don't think this will ever happen with so many EU economies on the brink of recession.

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, johnh said:

I agree on the Holystove issue.  Even though I don't agree with all he says, his posts are always well thought out and valuable, because he does have an insight into how everything works in the EU.  If  UK goods exported to the EU are delayed because of technical issues, then those issues will have to be resolved.  Which they will be in time.  However, if UK goods are delayed due to the EU playing silly beggars, then there will be a massive boycott of EU goods into the UK. (at least 52%).  I don't think this will ever happen with so many EU economies on the brink of recession.

Exactly. 

[pete0]

14 minutes ago, johnh said:

I agree on the Holystove issue.  Even though I don't agree with all he says, his posts are always well thought out and valuable, because he does have an insight into how everything works in the EU.  If  UK goods exported to the EU are delayed because of technical issues, then those issues will have to be resolved.  Which they will be in time.  However, if UK goods are delayed due to the EU playing silly beggars, then there will be a massive boycott of EU goods into the UK. (at least 52%).  I don't think this will ever happen with so many EU economies on the brink of recession.

You phrase this our the EU will blink first. So far they've been more than fair whilst our politicians have acted like entitled brats. It's embarrassing to me a British citizen atm. 

[Palfy]

48 minutes ago, MikeO said:

See that's the fundamental difference here Palf; I've never once seen him wish us ill or want to put obstacles in our way (as if he could?) or to make sure we don't succeed, be really interested if you could find evidence suggesting otherwise because I can remember none.

The EU lawyer thing the mistake I made was that while he's a lawyer who used to work in/have an interest in/study EU law he'd moved on from that (that's my memory of it anyway, he'll correct me if I'm wrong).

Far from what you're suggesting his viewpoint from the start was that while Brexit would be bad for Britain, it would be good for the remaining 27 because of the privileged  status we held in the group so he, as a Belgian, was pleased we were off.

I agree with @Chach that he's been, "pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1".

I'd never suggest my opinion amounted to "words of wisdom" though, they are simply my opinion.

Actually having a glance back at page one confirms my memory of @holystove.

"Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out."

The post does pre-date you joining the site by four months so maybe that's how you missed it.

Mike as you no I am an ardent remainer for a multitude of reasons not just wealth and prosperity, but lately Holystove’s posts have become more like Cameron’s full of doom and gloom with I feel innuendos and threats. 

He has changed his stance dramatically since his first post, and since Johnstone has become leader with his no messing we are leaving deal or no deal, he is becoming more entrenched in the European stance that we won’t and can’t succeed on our own. 

And your right as an individual he can’t put  obstacles in our way, but he can back the actions and words of those who want to and some of the things he’s been posting lately for me echo the thoughts of those people.

 I think it’s now the realisation that it’s going to happen and not as they hoped with us given into all their demands, they now feel financially threatened, you can gleam that from the border post and our Christmas dinner jibe, or do you believe they wish us well and that we go on to greater and bigger things. 

[MikeO]

6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Mike as you no I am an ardent remainer for a multitude of reasons not just wealth and prosperity, but lately Holystove’s posts have become more like Cameron’s full of doom and gloom with I feel innuendos and threats. 

He has changed his stance dramatically since his first post, and since Johnstone has become leader with his no messing we are leaving deal or no deal, he is becoming more entrenched in the European stance that we won’t and can’t succeed on our own. 

And your right as an individual he can’t put  obstacles in our way, but he can back the actions and words of those who want to and some of the things he’s been posting lately for me echo the thoughts of those people.

 I think it’s now the realisation that it’s going to happen and not as they hoped with us given into all their demands, they now feel financially threatened, you can gleam that from the border post and our Christmas dinner jibe, or do you believe they wish us well and that we go on to greater and bigger things. 

I'll leave the man himself to answer that.

John (Brexiteer in chief) agreed with me, "I agree on the Holystove issue.." a short while back and you answered him succinctly "exactly"? 

One post you're dismissing the guys neutral position and in the next you come out in full support of someone vouching for it. I'm confused.

[johnh]

50 minutes ago, pete0 said:

You phrase this our the EU will blink first. So far they've been more than fair whilst our politicians have acted like entitled brats. It's embarrassing to me a British citizen atm. 

Pete, your post is the wrong way round.  The EU have been intransigent (don't know where 'fair' comes into it). Our politicians were only guilty of being useless negotiators. May was only interested in coming up with a deal which satisfied both Leavers and Remainers, an impossible objective.  Don't know how to post a 'link', but if you go on the internet and Google 'Sir Peter Marshal  Briefings for Brexit.'    He is a Remain voter who has changed his mind based on the EU's approach to the UK (A bit like Palfy's).  He says it far better than I can. Its worth a read.

 

 

 

 

[johnh]

21 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I'll leave the man himself to answer that.

John (Brexiteer in chief) agreed with me, "I agree on the Holystove issue.." a short while back and you answered him succinctly "exactly"? 

One post you're dismissing the guys neutral position and in the next you come out in full support of someone vouching for it. I'm confused.

I also said (re Holystove) 'I don't agree with all he says'.

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, johnh said:

I also said (re Holystove) 'I don't agree with all he says'.

I appreciate that John but you are agreeing that he's coming from a position different from an entrenched British one are you not? And a pretty educated one at that.

[pete0]

36 minutes ago, johnh said:

Pete, your post is the wrong way round.  The EU have been intransigent (don't know where 'fair' comes into it). Our politicians were only guilty of being useless negotiators. May was only interested in coming up with a deal which satisfied both Leavers and Remainers, an impossible objective.  Don't know how to post a 'link', but if you go on the internet and Google 'Sir Peter Marshal  Briefings for Brexit.'    He is a Remain voter who has changed his mind based on the EU's approach to the UK (A bit like Palfy's).  He says it far better than I can. Its worth a read.

 

 

 

 

Given us extensions rather than leave us to fend for ourselves with a weak pound and no food or medical supplies. 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Given us extensions rather than leave us to fend for ourselves with a weak pound and no food or medical supplies. 

They’ve given us extensions in the hope we don’t leave or at a minimum except completely there proposals, not because they are trying to do us any favours. 

Holystove was of the same opinion as Macron that we wouldn’t and shouldn’t get an extension how wrong they were. 

If we leave with a weak pound that we work in our favour boosting our production and keeping unemployment low which in turn increases tax revenue great for us devastating for the EU. 

Also a weak pound hurts the EU more because we will not buy there goods at inflated prices and deal with country’s who are prepared to trade sensibly. 

I would rather be in than out but if we can’t be in with the same privileges then I’d rather be out than accept there demands and let them make us the poor relation.