Brexit...

[rubecula]

I think most pf us in here would agree that the poloticians we have in the uk are pretty crap  almost as bad as my typing  in fact I am sure many if not all of them  would stand up and say that they remember the path they took when they first became MPs.  I took a smilar oath once and I still  support it when ever it is required of me.  However  I am worried I may perhaps be expecting too much from them.  es[ecially the parties who refuse to accept the will of the people as you no doubt have known for some time I voted to leave the eu (I am not going to go into why  just  now),  but the politicians who argure to remain are deeplyd deviding  for me  they have deliberately  ignored certain facts that  would otherwise have resultrd in a smooth transition for us all.  Have you ever wondered on :

Why poli's  are reluctant to let the british people  live how the wish?

or why these politicians are apparently shit scared of doing an honest days work to earn the money the get paid?  They are lazy and gravy guzzlers  that they would rather sit back   on  ever so welcoming leather of the house and let someone else do the work for them.   I hate them all  

 

NO offence meant to whoever you are and whichever way you voted

[rubecula]

33 minutes ago, Palfy said:

And I’m sure there are thousands of decent people who voted leave but now want to remain, because of the reality of what they voted for wasn’t what they were led to believe, Piers Morgan is a corrupt journalist who would say anything to get attention, I’m not playing the man you threw that ball into the arena. 

good for you palfy you made your choice and are willing to stabd by it come hell or high water.  but please bear in mind that negotiations will not cease when we do leave,  they will go on for a long time after that.

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, rubecula said:

good for you palfy you made your choice and are willing to stabd by it come hell or high water.  but please bear in mind that negotiations will not cease when we do leave,  they will go on for a long time after that.

Rubes I am a remainer and I make no secret of that,  but I don’t believe the last referendum has delivered for anybody leave or remain, and yes our politicians are to blame for the stalemate, so we do need a 2nd referendum where no one can say they haven’t got a better understanding of what leave or stay would mean, and a new referendum that no matter what the outcome by law it has to be implemented and can’t be opposed, then I believe we will have a fairer result. 

And if any side wants to argue about it let them in the knowledge that they can go on till the cows home, but what ever the result it will be implemented as a decision by the people based more facts than fiction. 

And when leave are going round the country campaigning I bet they won’t be driving there red bus around smeared with the outrageous lies on it like the last time. 

[rubecula]

to be honest I am  heartily sick of the whole sorry episode now  I was huffed to bits when I thought my vote meant something,  but it was all lies  ….

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

to be honest I am  heartily sick of the whole sorry episode now  I was huffed to bits when I thought my vote meant something,  but it was all lies  ….

There’s many with that view mate. 

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49655719

I thought we had no control over our borders and immigration?  

[johnh]

On 08/09/2019 at 11:36, StevO said:

By false advertising on people’s social media to stir up racial hatred and convince vulnerable people of things that would happen if we didn’t leave. On an absolutely massive scale, they spent millions employing Cambridge Analytica to do this for them. There was such a scandal around it that there was government inquiry into the firm and the inquiry stated at the end that we will never be able to have a fair election ever again after what they did, such was the damaging but every effective work they carried out. When a government inquiry states that a fair election can never happen again I’d say that pretty damaging to democracy. 

I’d love to know your thoughts on how fair you think that it. But I suspect you didn’t even know it happened and thus you don’t really care. As a leave voter it makes me feel sick that that is how they won.

Only just spotted this.  Apologies for the delay.  No, you are right, I didn't know it happened and probably along with 17.4 millions people who voted leave and also didn't know it happened. So if our vote wasn't influenced, what's your point?

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, johnh said:

Only just spotted this.  Apologies for the delay.  No, you are right, I didn't know it happened and probably along with 17.4 millions people who voted leave and also didn't know it happened. So if our vote wasn't influenced, what's your point?

The point is it did influence but in a much more subvert manner than sending out flyers 

[StevO]

46 minutes ago, johnh said:

Only just spotted this.  Apologies for the delay.  No, you are right, I didn't know it happened and probably along with 17.4 millions people who voted leave and also didn't know it happened. So if our vote wasn't influenced, what's your point?

I’m not bothered about my own vote. I’m bothered about the massively unethical and intrusive tactics used. It was the result I wanted, but I wanted a fair result and this wasn’t a fair fight. 
 

I strongly suggest typing Brexit and Cambridge Analytica or AggregateIQ into Google. You might be shocked and disgusted by what you find too. 
 

I honestly believe if they didn’t employ these tactics the result would have been very much the other way. But gaining votes by using racial hatred is just not acceptable in my views. It makes me ashamed of the whole mess. 
 

Do yourself a favour John, watch the Brexit film The Uncivil War, also watch The Great Hack, you’ll see exactly what underhanded shit was carried out. I think if you did you would be just as disappointed and disgusted as I am. 

[Chach]

21 hours ago, johnh said:

Google:  'Unearthed video reveals Philip Hammond shock no deal'.

The video shows arch-Remainer, 'Philip Hammond, admitting (in the House of Commons)  that if no deal was agreed on Brexit then Britain would leave the EU 'automatically'. (no mention of the catastrophes he is now implying - my brackets).  The video is from 2016.

He is now against 'no deal' when he previously announced to Parliament that it would be 'automatic'.

What do you think you heard here?

It's not an admission of anything other than someone spelling out the withdrawal process, highlighting the fact a deal may not be agreed within the two years and that all the other member states would need to agree to an extension.

[Chach]

22 hours ago, RPG said:

Try to play the ball

 

22 hours ago, RPG said:

I think it is you who miss the point. Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by initially doing as directed and invoking Article 50 by a massive majority.

Have a look at the submissions made today in the Belfast High Court to see how no deal is declared as the outcome of Article 50 if no agreement is reached.

Take your own advice, you're still just replying to strawmen arguments.

Of course Parliament invoked article 50, that's how you get to the next stage of negotiating the withdrawal agreement, that is the only part with no grey area.

Keep on ignoring the fact that the referendum was not pre-legislative and the Parliament still has an obligation to the other 50 million people who live in the UK and didn't vote for either a deal or no deal Brexit.

 

[johnh]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

I’m not bothered about my own vote. I’m bothered about the massively unethical and intrusive tactics used. It was the result I wanted, but I wanted a fair result and this wasn’t a fair fight. 
 

I strongly suggest typing Brexit and Cambridge Analytica or AggregateIQ into Google. You might be shocked and disgusted by what you find too. 
 

I honestly believe if they didn’t employ these tactics the result would have been very much the other way. But gaining votes by using racial hatred is just not acceptable in my views. It makes me ashamed of the whole mess. 
 

Do yourself a favour John, watch the Brexit film The Uncivil War, also watch The Great Hack, you’ll see exactly what underhanded shit was carried out. I think if you did you would be just as disappointed a nd disgusted as I am. 

Steve0, I am not aware of anything you quote.  I made my decision to vote leave years before the referendum and would vote leave again no matter how many more referendum's we might have.  Switzerland have had five so far and vote 'No' every time. 

[johnh]

2 hours ago, Chach said:

 

Take your own advice, you're still just replying to strawmen arguments.

Of course Parliament invoked article 50, that's how you get to the next stage of negotiating the withdrawal agreement, that is the only part with no grey area.

Keep on ignoring the fact that the referendum was not pre-legislative and the Parliament still has an obligation to the other 50 million people who live in the UK and didn't vote for either a deal or no deal Brexit.

 

Chac, no one voted for a deal or a no deal.  It was Leave or Remain.  Out of your 50 million (which I assume includes those who voted remain?) why do you assume that the balance who didn't vote would have voted remain?   I have already pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced to Parliament, prior to the referendum, that the alternative to not securing  deal was to leave automatically.  Though I guess that was before they thought up project fear.

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, johnh said:

I have already pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced to Parliament, prior to the referendum, that the alternative to not securing  deal was to leave automatically. 

But that's a bit different to your earlier assertion that, "It was discussed in the House of Commons prior to the referendum - and not logged as a major problem..." isn't it? That video clip you've referred to is completely without context so no more than a meaningless soundbite really. It may have been a statement of theoretical fact but it was a situation that nobody seriously thought we'd be stupid enough to allow ourselves to get into.

Also how do you square Gove saying...

“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey.

“Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment."

[johnh]

I have just checked.  The Treasuries 'Project Fear' forecast that Brexit would reduce employment by 820,000..  Today, the Office for National Statistics said that in the 3 months to July we have added another 31,000 jobs to send unemployment back down to a 45 year low of 3.8pc.  Great news eh.

[Chach]

19 minutes ago, johnh said:

1)Chac, no one voted for a deal or a no deal.  It was Leave or Remain.  2) Out of your 50 million (which I assume includes those who voted remain?) why do you assume that the balance who didn't vote would have voted remain?   3)I have already pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced to Parliament, prior to the referendum, that the alternative to not securing  deal was to leave automatically.  Though I guess that was before they thought up project fear.

1) Your argument surely can't be so lacking in nuance that you wont accept that a number of leavers also wanted to stay in the single market and customs union, you don't have to point out something that has already been pointed out specifically by me many times like its a new argument three years and 82 pages down the track

2) Strawman, where did I state that? I said the Parliament still has to represent the interests of the entire population.

3) That video is a statement of the obvious, it's actually very prescient and honest and is not helping you.

[Chach]

2 minutes ago, johnh said:

I have just checked.  The Treasuries 'Project Fear' forecast that Brexit would reduce employment by 820,000..  Today, the Office for National Statistics said that in the 3 months to July we have added another 31,000 jobs to send unemployment back down to a 45 year low of 3.8pc.  Great news eh.

Brexit hasn't happened yet John.

[MikeO]

22 minutes ago, johnh said:

Steve0, I am not aware of anything you quote.  I made my decision to vote leave years before the referendum and would vote leave again no matter how many more referendum's we might have.  Switzerland have had five so far and vote 'No' every time. 

Nobody is questioning or arguing with your motives for voting leave John; you've been clear from the start of this and everyone respects your position. It's just that the evidence that Ste is talking about suggests that a whole lot of other people who voted leave were influenced by their use of social media. I suspect that you (like me) don't spend every waking hour on Faceache and Twitter but many do, and there's a definite smoking gun there.

[johnh]

4 minutes ago, MikeO said:

But that's a bit different to your earlier assertion that, "It was discussed in the House of Commons prior to the referendum - and not logged as a major problem..." isn't it? That video clip you've referred to is completely without context so no more than a meaningless soundbite really. It may have been a statement of theoretical fact but it was a situation that nobody seriously thought we'd be stupid enough to allow ourselves to get into.

Also how do you square Gove saying...

“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey.

“Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment."

Why is it different?  Unless you class 'leaving automatically' as a catastrophe?   I can't believe you think that nobody was aware of the potential of a no deal, apart from the fact that you imply that you know how everyone is thinking.  As Hammond said, if there was no deal to be agreed, leaving would be automatic.

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, johnh said:

Why is it different?  Unless you class 'leaving automatically' as a catastrophe?   I can't believe you think that nobody was aware of the potential of a no deal, apart from the fact that you imply that you know how everyone is thinking.  As Hammond said, if there was no deal to be agreed, leaving would be automatic.

So as I asked afterwards why did Gove say that was not something he campaigned for and that to leave without a deal would not honour [leave's] commitment?

[MikeO]

12 minutes ago, johnh said:

Why is it different? 

Difference is you said it was discussed (suggesting a discussion) in the House of Commons prior to the referendum - and not logged as a major problem (again suggesting a discussion) and you said you'd provide evidence of this.

The "evidence" you provided consisted of a thirty second clip of Hammond mentioning it; that's quite a significant difference. 

[johnh]

24 minutes ago, Chach said:

Brexit hasn't happened yet John.

Chac, the Bank of England said a vote to leave would result in an immediate recession.  Osborne who was Chancellor of the Exchequer said that unemployment would increase by 820,000. This was prior to the referendum.

[johnh]

46 minutes ago, MikeO said:

So as I asked afterwards why did Gove say that was not something he campaigned for and that to leave without a deal would not honour [leave's] commitment?

Mike, you are conflating two separate issues.  The purpose of the Hammond video was to prove that the issue of no deal had been discussed prior to the referendum. The  important issue being 'prior to the referendum'. This was in response to a view on this site that no deal had never been discussed.

What Gove said was fairly recent and anyway, as we know, Gove changes his views almost as much as Corbyn.

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike, you are conflating two separate issues.

I'm actually not, I'm putting two separate points in the same post.

1) A remain MP mentioned the default position pre-referendum, there was no discussion or analysis of the potential problem (which you assured us you would provide proof of).

2) Leading leave MP says (more recently) that the threatened result of the current situation was not what was campaigned on/people voted for. You say he changes his views; when was he a remainer exactly?

[StevO]

3 hours ago, johnh said:

Steve0, I am not aware of anything you quote.  I made my decision to vote leave years before the referendum and would vote leave again no matter how many more referendum's we might have.  Switzerland have had five so far and vote 'No' every time. 

I fully get that John, I voted leave for my own reasons too. But many many people voted because of the underhanded race and fear related tactics employed by leave.eu. 
Do you not think that the referendum on something so major should have a transparent result with as much honesty as possible?
I wanted to leave, but I wanted it to be the honest will of the people. What was done by leave.eu took away that honesty, and it’s a very very tainted result because of those actions for me. 
The minute the government inquiry was ordered this referendum result should have been put on hold while the investigation was carried out. 
 

As a man clearly of integrity John, I’ve always found you to be an honest and fair man during our time on TT, I’m sure you would want any election or referendum to be run fairly. I’ll post a link to the summary of the government inquiry, take a read. As a leave voter I find it all quite horrible. I really think you will think the same with a bit of clear information to hand. 
 

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/news/fake-news-report-published-17-19/

[StevO]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

Nobody is questioning or arguing with your motives for voting leave John; you've been clear from the start of this and everyone respects your position. It's just that the evidence that Ste is talking about suggests that a whole lot of other people who voted leave were influenced by their use of social media. I suspect that you (like me) don't spend every waking hour on Faceache and Twitter but many do, and there's a definite smoking gun there.

That’s it Mike. I had my reasons, I can live with them. It’s the people who were influenced by these things that worry me. 
I’m not on Facebook so I couldn’t have been targeted, but millions were. 
 

The same tactics were employed in the Trump election by the same company. 

[johnh]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I'm actually not, I'm putting two separate points in the same post.

1) A remain MP mentioned the default position pre-referendum, there was no discussion or analysis of the potential problem (which you assured us you would provide proof of).

2) Leading leave MP says (more recently) that the threatened result of the current situation was not what was campaigned on/voted for. You say he changes his views; when was he a remainer exactly?

I'm getting confused here Mike.  The Chancellor of the Exchequer announces in the House of Commons (pre referendum) that failure to negotiate a deal with the EU would result in Britain leaving the EU automatically.  If no deal was negotiated, 'automatically' means no deal.  This responds to a post that said that no deal was ever mentioned prior to the referendum.

Where did I say that Gove was a remainer?  He keeps changing his mind on which of the Tory strategies are the most popular this week.  Don't rate him, think he's a weasel.

[MikeO]

18 minutes ago, johnh said:

I'm getting confused here Mike.  The Chancellor of the Exchequer announces in the House of Commons (pre referendum) that failure to negotiate a deal with the EU would result in Britain leaving the EU automatically.  If no deal was negotiated, 'automatically' means no deal.  This responds to a post that said that no deal was ever mentioned prior to the referendum.

Where did I say that Gove was a remainer?  He keeps changing his mind on which of the Tory strategies are the most popular this week.  Don't rate him, think he's a weasel.

OK so we'll skip the second bit, leave wants to pick and choose who and when to believe or ignore so forget that.

You still fail to provide (despite multiple requests to offer up the promised evidence) your proof that no deal was "discussed" and analysed at any point pre-referendum.

It just wasn't, and no amount of internet searching will come up with a link supporting that argument. I say again; a few seconds mention doesn't equate to a discussion, a discussion takes more than one person laying out a position.

I could say, "stones are sentient" and rightly get no reply. That's not a discussion.

[Matt]

5 hours ago, johnh said:

Steve0, I am not aware of anything you quote.  I made my decision to vote leave years before the referendum and would vote leave again no matter how many more referendum's we might have.  Switzerland have had five so far and vote 'No' every time. 

Switzerland has been neutral for 500 years (although only recognised as neutral 100 years ago). They chose to not join and remain neutral, it’s not close to comparable situation. 

Also, not being personally aware is largely irrelevant. The majority of people have a social network link, that’s the point. 

[Matt]

Here’s my analogy, since the car one was forgotten or misunderstood, and seemingly more fitting:

Doctor: you can live with the infection which we can manage, even treat given the right course of action (no guarantees though),  or we can do something about it

Patient: do something about it! Just do what it takes!

Doctor amputates all four limbs.

Patient asked for something to be done but had no idea of the treatment and thus no idea of the impact of his decision. You think the patient would’ve wished for more clarity and/or a second opinion if he knew?

Thats what no deal is. Not to say you can’t live a good live being quadriplegic, but there are a fair few advantages to being able bodied even if you’ve got an infection

I in no way think the EU is an infection by the way.