Path to Top 6

[pete0]

13 minutes ago, StevO said:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/everton-fc_leeds-united/index/spielbericht/1021714

That one?

That starting line up, what a nightmare. Was there a single footballer in there?

Simonsen

Weir Stubbs Unsworth Pistone

Linderoth Gemmill Carsley Blomqvist

Campbell Radzinski 

Gravesen and Ginola came off the bench.

Not a bad result against a side with Alan Smith, Harry Kewell, Mark Viduka and Robbie Fowler. They had ten men from 39 minutes onwards after Matteo got sent off.

Leeds had one hell of a team back then, before they fucked it all up. 

That's the one. Didn't realise the side we put out was so poor on paper. That game they gave their all for shirt. One were when you're watching you feel every tackle and are willing every pass forward. 

Good induction to referring standards for any Evertonian too. Last minute Radzinski was through on goal and got brought down for what should have been a penalty but the ref blew the whistle for full time! 

[StevO]

1 minute ago, pete0 said:

That's the one. Didn't realise the side we put out was so poor on paper. That game they gave their all for shirt. One were when you're watching you feel every tackle and are willing every pass forward. 

Good induction to referring standards for any Evertonian too. Last minute Radzinski was through on goal and got brought down for what should have been a penalty but the ref blew the whistle for full time! 

The feeling you get at the game can’t be argued against, we all feel it different. 

My favourite was beating Arsenal where AJ scored from a corner a few minutes before the end in really shit weather. 

[Finn balor]

Always liked radzinski me 

[StevO]

6 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

Always liked radzinski me 

Decent player, but I never forgave him for advising (apparently) Rooney to leave. To be honest, I never forgave the club for getting in that situation in the first place. 

[pete0]

7 minutes ago, StevO said:

The feeling you get at the game can’t be argued against, we all feel it different. 

My favourite was beating Arsenal where AJ scored from a corner a few minutes before the end in really shit weather. 

Very true, can't beat it and must be the reason so many managers stick around. It's an additiction.

My favourite was the Big Dunc 1 nil v Man United. You could feel a crackle in the atmosphere walking up to the stadium and everyone was absolutely buzzing after the game. 

[pete0]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

Decent player, but I never forgave him for advising (apparently) Rooney to leave. To be honest, I never forgave the club for getting in that situation in the first place. 

Didn't know about the Rooney advice but this helped me like him again. Was annoyed he left the club, especially to someone like Fulham. I liked him tiring the defence and then Rooney coming on and being the boy wonder!

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/regrets-burned-bridges-tomasz-radzinski-14623926

[Finn balor]

Always remember his last minute winner against Southampton we were one nil down but turned it around. I was in the park end and fell over the chairs in front of me 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

dont think anyone on here believes we’ll be pushing third place or even expecting us to break into the top six Palfy. 

I disagree go back 20 or so posts and start reading. 

I want us to do really well in fact I want us to win the league next season I wanted us to win the league last season, I didn’t post that not because I’m negative but because I’m realistic, spouting shit about how well we are going to be doesn’t make you a better supporter in my book.  

[Finn balor]

Leicester city

[pete0]

I think second is open to anyone with a good season. Back when it was the Sky 4 it was an almost impossible task yet we managed it once. The last few years the quality has dipped or should I say more thinly spread with Spurs and City (PSG, and Atletico) hovering up players too. 

City are uncatchable though they're the only team with proper quality in nearly every position x2. They have Silva, Bernardo, De Bruyne, and Gudogan who all find space to exploit. 

[MikeO]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

My favourite was beating Arsenal where AJ scored from a corner a few minutes before the end in really shit weather. 

 

5 hours ago, pete0 said:

My favourite was the Big Dunc 1 nil v Man United. You could feel a crackle in the atmosphere walking up to the stadium and everyone was absolutely buzzing after the game. 

Beating Charlton 2-1 with the McFadden wonder goal in injury time after Darren Bent had equalised for them on 89 mins; less "crackling atmosphere" as thousands had walked out after Bent's goal and missed it.

(also relevant to the thread as it put us fifth in mid April)

[Finn balor]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

I think second is open to anyone with a good season. Back when it was the Sky 4 it was an almost impossible task yet we managed it once. The last few years the quality has dipped or should I say more thinly spread with Spurs and City (PSG, and Atletico) hovering up players too. 

City are uncatchable though they're the only team with proper quality in nearly every position x2. They have Silva, Bernardo, De Bruyne, and Gudogan who all find space to exploit. 

The shite can’t be like this next season. City just play from the back. The goalie is unreal what the difference is the city midfield 

[Romey 1878]

17 hours ago, StevO said:

The feeling you get at the game can’t be argued against, we all feel it different. 

My favourite was beating Arsenal where AJ scored from a corner a few minutes before the end in really shit weather. 

I loved that game. I remember walking out buzzing my tits off while hailstones the size of golf balls were smacking me on the head and every couple of seconds shouting "ow, fuck"  

17 hours ago, pete0 said:

Very true, can't beat it and must be the reason so many managers stick around. It's an additiction.

My favourite was the Big Dunc 1 nil v Man United. You could feel a crackle in the atmosphere walking up to the stadium and everyone was absolutely buzzing after the game. 

Best atmosphere I have ever been a part of.

[nogs]

On 18/05/2019 at 15:25, pete0 said:

We turned up to Fulham just as we did the other games. Just they fought back. United were awful, they didn't close down and were all over the shop with a centre half at the back and players who just don't want to be there any more and won't dig deep. Even Cardiff beat them ffs. 

If the expectation is 8th there's the difference. I'm not happy with 8th, and unless it comes down to the wire 7th isn'ttt good enough either. Martinez got us 5th, Koeman got us 7th, and last season Alladyce got the worst Everton side since Walter Smith to 8th. Silva hasn't done his job, the gap is massive from us to 6th. He's had Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Richarlison, Bernard and only closed the gap by two points. Compare them to the players they come in for Williams/Jags both legs gone and were playing next to an injured Keane making him even more cumbersome, add Baines and Coleman both coming back from injuries and we must have had the most immobile back four in the league, and then it wasn't much better in midfield with a leggy Rooney. We lacked pace that much DCL an inexperienced striker was playing on the wing. The team was completely unbalanced and slow yet we've only managed to close the gap by two points. The manager has a lot to answer for. 

I'm no happy clapper. If we perform well and get beat or draw I'll say so just as much as I'll say we weren't great or the opposition handed it to us on a plate. One of the best matches I went was a nil nil draw against Leeds in 2002, had everything but goals. Even though we never scored I was happy with the performance and that game sticks in memory. I can't say as much for any game this season, or last for that matter. I'm happy with the three points but other than the Man United score the matches are pretty forgettable. 

Our of interest Pete how old were you in 2002? Am I right in guessing pretty young? Might it not be the case that the reason why you were able to enjoy a shite Everton team draw 0-0 with ten-man Leeds, but don't get the same buzz watching us beat Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea now, is because you've changed, not because this current team lacks passion? 

I have loads of great memories of Goodison from the 90s when I lived close enough to go to matches regularly. I loved it, still do when I can get over. But fuck me I saw some rubbish Everton teams. The biggest criticism I could throw at us last season was that at times we played like one of them relegation near-miss seasons, or how it was under Smith again. Just dour, hapless, clueless football. Say what you like, but we would never have got the results we've had this last three months last season, under Koeman or Allardyce. We've turned a corner and we will see progress again next season. 

[pete0]

19 minutes ago, nogs said:

Our of interest Pete how old were you in 2002? Am I right in guessing pretty young? Might it not be the case that the reason why you were able to enjoy a shite Everton team draw 0-0 with ten-man Leeds, but don't get the same buzz watching us beat Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea now, is because you've changed, not because this current team lacks passion? 

I have loads of great memories of Goodison from the 90s when I lived close enough to go to matches regularly. I loved it, still do when I can get over. But fuck me I saw some rubbish Everton teams. The biggest criticism I could throw at us last season was that at times we played like one of them relegation near-miss seasons, or how it was under Smith again. Just dour, hapless, clueless football. Say what you like, but we would never have got the results we've had this last three months last season, under Koeman or Allardyce. We've turned a corner and we will see progress again next season. 

14, so young but old enough to tell the difference. 

We had blips under Moyes towards the end but the noticeable decline came under Martinez in his second season. Most including myself put it down to fitness as Martinez got rid of a lot of the fitness coaches and the team looked a yard off the pace, made to look even worse by the poor tactics were we kept possession but didn't know what to do with it. Slow, lethargic would be two words that come to mind for the second and third season. 

Koeman come along and the fitness was addressed and we looked like a team again, I only went a four games but I enjoyed three of them (City, Arsenal, Hull) more than I have any game the past two seasons. (The other being the FA cup defeat to Leicester). Second season Koeman and Walsh then put their stamp on the team and we looked an absolute mess. Mercenaries would be the word I'd use for the team since then. The passion has gone, there's even players smiling walking off the pitch after a defeat, a lot just don't care enough. 

Koeman had wins against the big six with us. Alladyce has a fair amount in his career too. I really don't know why people grasp to those three wins this season. Any other season it wouldn't get this much attention. Plus they weren't at their best, I do think Alladyce would have got more points with this team than Silva as, and given last years squad I'm glad Silva didn't get the job first time round as we would have been closer to relegation. We've got Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Richarlison, Bernard yet the manager has only managed to get 5 more points in total or to look at it another way only closed the gap to top 6 by 2 points. Given what Alladyce managed with the shambles we had last year I see no reason why he wouldn't have done a better job than Silva. 

[StevO]

34 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Koeman had wins against the big six with us. Alladyce has a fair amount in his career too. I really don't know why people grasp to those three wins this season. Any other season it wouldn't get this much attention. 

In our life time Pete (or at least since we were teenagers) we have been lucky to get one win against these sides a season. The odd 1-0 win over United, or Arsenal, or the occasional derby win. But they always seemed to be scrappy wins, where the players had to put everything into them to win them, they were good but we beat them by hard work rather than talent. 

The attention on these wins was because they were back to back home victories, not just one offs dotted around a couple of years. It was every other week. But there wasn’t just hard work and grit like in the Moyes days, we beat these teams while showing quality at the same time. I know you think the other teams were poor, so what if they were, we were good too. We worked harder and showed more quality, and didn’t concede a goal. 

The reason the wins against these sides in the past were so good was because we always hoped they would be the glimmer of hope that the side would push on and progress, but more often that not we didn’t. This time we went out at Goodison and won again, if you can’t see the glimmer of hope from this I don’t think you have a positive bone in your body.

The rest of the Evertonians on the planet loved these games, they made us relevant again and gave us hope. For you, they seemed to just give you reasons to blame the other teams for being shit rather than to enjoy watching your own team win. 

You couldn’t enjoy the victories against Chelsea, Arsenal or United, you were too upset about Fulham and Palace. As poor as those results were, you need to enjoy the good times. 

[Matt]

45 minutes ago, pete0 said:

14, so young but old enough to tell the difference. 

We had blips under Moyes towards the end but the noticeable decline came under Martinez in his second season. Most including myself put it down to fitness as Martinez got rid of a lot of the fitness coaches and the team looked a yard off the pace, made to look even worse by the poor tactics were we kept possession but didn't know what to do with it. Slow, lethargic would be two words that come to mind for the second and third season. 

Koeman come along and the fitness was addressed and we looked like a team again, I only went a four games but I enjoyed three of them (City, Arsenal, Hull) more than I have any game the past two seasons. (The other being the FA cup defeat to Leicester). Second season Koeman and Walsh then put their stamp on the team and we looked an absolute mess. Mercenaries would be the word I'd use for the team since then. The passion has gone, there's even players smiling walking off the pitch after a defeat, a lot just don't care enough. 

Koeman had wins against the big six with us. Alladyce has a fair amount in his career too. I really don't know why people grasp to those three wins this season. Any other season it wouldn't get this much attention. Plus they weren't at their best, I do think Alladyce would have got more points with this team than Silva as, and given last years squad I'm glad Silva didn't get the job first time round as we would have been closer to relegation. We've got Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Richarlison, Bernard yet the manager has only managed to get 5 more points in total or to look at it another way only closed the gap to top 6 by 2 points. Given what Alladyce managed with the shambles we had last year I see no reason why he wouldn't have done a better job than Silva. 

First and second paragraphs are spot on. Last is bafflingly stupid. 

[pete0]

35 minutes ago, StevO said:

In our life time Pete (or at least since we were teenagers) we have been lucky to get one win against these sides a season. The odd 1-0 win over United, or Arsenal, or the occasional derby win. But they always seemed to be scrappy wins, where the players had to put everything into them to win them, they were good but we beat them by hard work rather than talent. 

The attention on these wins was because they were back to back home victories, not just one offs dotted around a couple of years. It was every other week. But there wasn’t just hard work and grit like in the Moyes days, we beat these teams while showing quality at the same time. I know you think the other teams were poor, so what if they were, we were good too. We worked harder and showed more quality, and didn’t concede a goal. 

The reason the wins against these sides in the past were so good was because we always hoped they would be the glimmer of hope that the side would push on and progress, but more often that not we didn’t. This time we went out at Goodison and won again, if you can’t see the glimmer of hope from this I don’t think you have a positive bone in your body.

The rest of the Evertonians on the planet loved these games, they made us relevant again and gave us hope. For you, they seemed to just give you reasons to blame the other teams for being shit rather than to enjoy watching your own team win. 

You couldn’t enjoy the victories against Chelsea, Arsenal or United, you were too upset about Fulham and Palace. As poor as those results were, you need to enjoy the good times. 

We done it three years in the bounce 11/12 - 13/14 and didn't make a song and a dance about it. 

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2017/3/22/14975404/everton-record-against-top-six-arsenal-chelsea-liverpool-manchester-city-united-tottenham

Exactly we beat them with hard work. We didn't need to work hard for any of the wins against them this year and that was not to do with talent just the opposition was poor. We walloped West ham last year in similar fashion, sometimes you win simply because the other team is poor. We played the same way against Fulham, why didn't we beat them? All I can see different is Fulham tried whereas the others never. We done very little different in the matches yet got polar opposite results. 

I enjoyed the results. I just wouldn't get carried away with them due to the performances. We're still yet to beat a top 6 away in a good few seasons and even Cardiff managed that, but that was more to do with timing than their quality I'm sure most would agree, and if they do it'd be fickle to think otherwise of our result against them. The result was great, we scored a couple of bangs and it was a good feeling leaving the ground and celebrating after it but that's were it ended for me, there was nothing in those performances to show we will be top 6 next year other than you could argue the opposition is that poor they won't be. We didn't go toe-to-toe and come out victorious in any game against the top 6, and no game comes to mind this season that we did, or last for that matter. 

[pete0]

45 minutes ago, Matt said:

First and second paragraphs are spot on. Last is bafflingly stupid. 

How's it stupid to expect a team that goes from Martina, Williams, Rooney (in midfield), and DCL (on the wing) to Zouma, Digne, Gomes, Bernard, and Richarlison. The pace alone should have closed the gap between the top 6 and ffs by more than 2 points, nevermind that every single player is of better quality. Half the first eleven upgraded and only 2 points closer is a major failure. 

[StevO]

12 minutes ago, pete0 said:

We played the same way against Fulham, why didn't we beat them? All I can see different is Fulham tried whereas the others never. We done very little different in the matches yet got polar opposite results. 

Because the same tactics don’t always work against different opposition. 

Ever heard boxers say styles make fights? It’s the same with football. One style of play will beat one team but leave you exposed to others. Surely you get that Pete?

[pete0]

36 minutes ago, StevO said:

Because the same tactics don’t always work against different opposition. 

Ever heard boxers say styles make fights? It’s the same with football. One style of play will beat one team but leave you exposed to others. Surely you get that Pete?

I do understand, but I wouldn't say Fulham or Newcastle beat us with style. Just as I wouldn't say we beat Man U with style. Fulham wanted it more than us, and against Newcastle we imploded. Conversely Chelsea imploded against us and united never wanted it when they came to us. 

Palace kept us to a stalemate thanks to their tactics and their desire to follow them through. But at the same time we failed to address their tactics and our desire to win wasn't as strong as their effort for the draw. We have major issues over our mentality to win, as well as our tactics. There's no one taking charge and forcing luck in our favour and the manager doesn't address the problems when we're struggling to break a team down. 

[Palfy]

People are reading far to much into those 3 wins against the top 6, we never hit them when they were at their best Arsenal and Utd were playing with the form of teams that were at the bottom of the league.

Also I'm a great believer that changing your tactics or formation is the world of the lower teams, the teams that don't believe they are good enough to force their style on the opposition and win a game.

Again I reiterate we have a long long way to go and a shed load of points to catch up on the top six and yes we are improving but if the improvement only results in increments of a couple of points a season it's not going to get us there anytime soon.

So without wishing to sound negative or half class empty the euphoria shown by some on what they think and believe we should achieve next season for me is mind boggling unrealistic, and only going to lead to more misery and disappointment when not achieved.

[nogs]

10 hours ago, StevO said:

In our life time Pete (or at least since we were teenagers) we have been lucky to get one win against these sides a season. The odd 1-0 win over United, or Arsenal, or the occasional derby win. But they always seemed to be scrappy wins, where the players had to put everything into them to win them, they were good but we beat them by hard work rather than talent. 

The attention on these wins was because they were back to back home victories, not just one offs dotted around a couple of years. It was every other week. But there wasn’t just hard work and grit like in the Moyes days, we beat these teams while showing quality at the same time. I know you think the other teams were poor, so what if they were, we were good too. We worked harder and showed more quality, and didn’t concede a goal. 

The reason the wins against these sides in the past were so good was because we always hoped they would be the glimmer of hope that the side would push on and progress, but more often that not we didn’t. This time we went out at Goodison and won again, if you can’t see the glimmer of hope from this I don’t think you have a positive bone in your body.

The rest of the Evertonians on the planet loved these games, they made us relevant again and gave us hope. For you, they seemed to just give you reasons to blame the other teams for being shit rather than to enjoy watching your own team win. 

You couldn’t enjoy the victories against Chelsea, Arsenal or United, you were too upset about Fulham and Palace. As poor as those results were, you need to enjoy the good times. 

This, all day long. It wasn't just those three results, it was our home form for the last five matches after losing to City. Two points dropped, no goals conceded, playing Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd, playing good, progressive football. 

I dont get how see how anyone can't see genuine promise in that. I don't get how anyone can accuse players/manager of not caring after putting a run together like that, especially on the back of a terrible run of form. Imo that takes real guts and determination. 

[StevO]

11 hours ago, pete0 said:

I do understand, but I wouldn't say Fulham or Newcastle beat us with style. Just as I wouldn't say we beat Man U with style. Fulham wanted it more than us, and against Newcastle we imploded. Conversely Chelsea imploded against us and united never wanted it when they came to us. 

Palace kept us to a stalemate thanks to their tactics and their desire to follow them through. But at the same time we failed to address their tactics and our desire to win wasn't as strong as their effort for the draw. We have major issues over our mentality to win, as well as our tactics. There's no one taking charge and forcing luck in our favour and the manager doesn't address the problems when we're struggling to break a team down. 

I don’t think you got what I meant by style. Not as in stylish, as in the type of football. 

[Shukes]

Name and shame.... name one person Palfy. You’ve said the same over and again mate, and it’s been explained to you, over and again that no one is getting overly over the top excited about it, we just recognise that the team did well against them and have us hope for next season. 

I get why it’s being downplayed, it doesn’t suit a certain couple of agendas. 

Do people realise how Liverpool have came so close? Their own fans get it. They will tell you straight, they have learnt to win ugly. Change tactics when things aren’t going well, and grind a result. Same as Utd used to do, to win titles, and Arsenal the 1-0 team.

How we can class going on a run where we finish the form table in the top four, as a failure, is I’m afraid, ridiculous. I know I’m a bit of a fanatic when it comes to Everton, and I can see some light of positivity in a 6-0 defeat haha, but this is going the exact opposite.

[Palfy]

On 17/05/2019 at 14:59, Deacs said:

That’s the difference from Koeman and Martinez who were unable to turn things around. Makes me optimistic.

Rubbish Koeman turned his first season around and we finished seventh when at one point we looked possible relegation candidates.

[Deacs]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Rubbish Koeman turned his first season around and we finished seventh when at one point we looked possible relegation candidates.

Thats not how I remember it at all. He started ok until the rot set in and then it was down hill all the way. 

[Deacs]

Just checked and in Koeman’s first season we were never lower than 9th in the table. We finished 7th which is where we were after 18 games. (And never moved from 7th after the 18th game). I’ll give you we had run after the great start (4 wins out of 5) where we lost some games against teams we would want to beat, but we were still winning games and against some good sides too. If you compare that against season two where it was all downhill.

[Keith B]

To answer the original question, yes, Everton might be able to crack the top six:

1.) The main issue is about us, Everton. As some have stated above, we were collectively optimistic going into Koeman's second season. That didn't turn out so well. The big question: Does the finish to this season suggest Silva's system is beginning to click or a run of luckier than usual results? Secondly, on this point, can Everton find a right back, striker, and cover for Gylfi at the 10? Does Brands decide to roll the dice on DCL at striker? Can Brands find the Digne and Benards again this summer? If we can't sign Zouma, can Mina stay healthy for 30 minutes? And if Mina can stay healthy, can he be as good as Zouma?

2.) United are an absolute mess. They'll splash a lot of cash this summer, but I don't think their management has any idea what they are doing so those dollars may not be well spent. I think they can be passed in the table, assuming their transfer policy is as incompetent as it has been over recent years.

3.) Chelsea might get hit with a transfer ban. Hazard is likely going out and he has been one of the best, if not the best, player in the EPL over the past several seasons. That's not easily replaceable. I don't know exactly how they replace that and even though I love Christian Pulisic (I'm American), he ain't it.

4.) Spurs, who I hope play the best game of their collective lives on June 1st, are due for a dip. Their main guys play a lot of minutes and managers are a genius until they aren't. As someone stated above, Klopp left Dortmund in the middle of a season when Dortmund were in the relegation zone. Could we see a similar drop-off from Spurs? I seriously doubt it, but crazier stuff has happened.

5.) Arsenal: Still can't defend but I'd expect they do something in the transfer market to address it. Auba turns 30 next month and pacey strikers don't typically age well. Oh and he wore out his welcome at Dortmund by missing practice and generally being a dipshit. Also, are we sure Emery is a decent manager? (He probably is)

6.) Maybe Liverpool slips a bit. I can't see how Real Madrid doesn't come after Salah, but what do I know. They seemed to get every lucky break this year save the Stones goal line clearance. Don't see City slipping at all and in fact, they might even strengthen their side in an attempt to win a quad. 

Wolves, Watford, and Leicester will all be thinking the same thing though.

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, Deacs said:

Just checked and in Koeman’s first season we were never lower than 9th in the table. We finished 7th which is where we were after 18 games. (And never moved from 7th after the 18th game). I’ll give you we had run after the great start (4 wins out of 5) where we lost some games against teams we would want to beat, but we were still winning games and against some good sides too. If you compare that against season two where it was all downhill.

Exactly he had really good start and a very poor mid it was only his good start that kept it from looking as bad as it was, then he turned the corner and finished 7th refer to Koeman thread for that season and it may jog your memory. 

So please concede you were wrong because he did turn his 1st season round, and yes he couldn’t sustain that in his 2nd season as Martinez couldn’t, but let’s not forget Silva hasn’t had his 2nd yet, so a little bit like counting your chickens when it comes to Silva next season could potentially go either way.