Palfy Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Matt said: Deserve?! Steve's point is completely accurate in assessment. Not a chance no country in a Europe or the world should be lead by a dictator or fear for their life’s if they try to exercise freedom of speech and call for democracy in their country, you tell me how he’s right? tell why Russians shouldn’t have democracy? tell my why Russians struggle with democracy? tell me why they should be governed by a strong man approach and not by freedom’s of democracy? Deserve is exactly how it sounds when he accuses the people of Russia of having some sort of culture that means they can’t be trusted with democracy, so you get the other option which is his strong man rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 So Biden isn't sure if Russian tanks steamrolling into Ukraine constitutes an invasion? Has Putin invaded Ukraine? The White House isn’t sure (telegraph.co.uk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Matt said: Deserve?! Steve's point is completely accurate in assessment. I would contest it. Russia went from authoritarian monarchy to brutal dictatorship after brutal dictatorship, ravaged by revolutions and war. Democracy has had no chance to flower there. It took the 'West' as he terms it centuries to get to grips with democracy - in a sense, we stil are. To say the Russians have a different culture that lends itself to tryanny is pretty offensive to Russians. Would he say it about an African country? There are, indeed, other forms of government and rule. Steve and you may have ideas about what this is but to imagine a whole people are locked into one way of thinking in perpetuity is fanciful, and to imagine that there aren't millions of Russians who would welcome freedom and democracy (if indeed you equate the two), more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 And the most read story on the BBC is.... ...good to see the great British public have their priorities sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Not a chance no country in a Europe or the world should be lead by a dictator or fear for their life’s if they try to exercise freedom of speech and call for democracy in their country, you tell me how he’s right? tell why Russians shouldn’t have democracy? tell my why Russians struggle with democracy? tell me why they should be governed by a strong man approach and not by freedom’s of democracy? Deserve is exactly how it sounds when he accuses the people of Russia of having some sort of culture that means they can’t be trusted with democracy, so you get the other option which is his strong man rule. Because historically he is correct. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true, and he has in no way said they deserve a dictator or don't deserve democracy in any shape or form. Its an accurate observation based on history. Anything else you see there is you reading into things that aren't there. 2 hours ago, Formby said: I would contest it. Russia went from authoritarian monarchy to brutal dictatorship after brutal dictatorship, ravaged by revolutions and war. Democracy has had no chance to flower there. It took the 'West' as he terms it centuries to get to grips with democracy - in a sence, we stil are. To say the Russians have a different culture that lends itself to tryanny is pretty offensive to Russians. Would he say it about an African country? There are, indeed, other forms of government and rule. Steve and you may have ideas about what this is but to imagine a whole people are locked into one way of thinking in perpetuity is fanciful, and to imagine that there aren't millions of Russians who would welcome freedom and democracy (if indeed you equate the two), more so. No idea why Russia has been this way but it has been. Lenin, Stalin, Putin... there's a trend. Not saying its a conscious decision but it's certainly a trend. Knowing Steve, and to just hammer the point home, he's just observing and I agree with his observations. The Tsars were cunts, those in charge that followed didn't exactly change anything but they did have followings that kept them in power (whether that be the population believing in the leader like Lenin initially or by those who help beat the population into submission like with Stalin/Putin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 Palfy, go watch these. I think you enjoyed the other one I shared about Napoleon, this is Russian history in a nutshell. Obviously it's very high level but the fundamental developments are accurate to history: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 27 minutes ago, Matt said: No idea why Russia has been this way but it has been. Lenin, Stalin, Putin... there's a trend. Not saying its a conscious decision but it's certainly a trend. Knowing Steve, and to just hammer the point home, he's just observing and I agree with his observations. That's absolutely fine. I won't park my tanks on the borders of Matt land and Steve land and demand you change your mind! I do think Steve's point is very questionable, though. As he is a very intelligent poster, I am sure he can point out why this is not the case. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, Formby said: That's absolutely fine. I won't park my tanks on the borders of Matt land and Steve land and demand you change your mind! I do think Steve's point is very questionable, though. As he is a very intelligent poster, I am sure he can point out why this is not the case. Maybe he's coming across as generalising a nation but a little context is important here. Historically Russia as a country has had 1 oppressing leader after another. That's all he's meant, and how that leader gets into power, whether the Tsars or following a movement backed by "the people", its still true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Matt said: Palfy, go watch these. I think you enjoyed the other one I shared about Napoleon, this is Russian history in a nutshell. Obviously it's very high level but the fundamental developments are accurate to history: Just because Russia had a revolution doesn’t mean that the people have a culture where democracy doesn’t work, if we are going to use that as a yard stick then history will say many countries have a culture why democracy doesn’t work and they only understand the big stick approach, but we have seen that not to be true when the people have had the opportunity live in a democracy. Spain, Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years but that doesn’t mean they are culturally incapable of living in a democracy so there for the man with the big stick is the best way forward for Russians. Personally I think that sort of believe is why we still have dictators like Putin in power you are in someways condoning how they run there countries and whilst people hold them beliefs people like Putin will always exist, and it’s nothing to do with culture the people are the culture of any country. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 15 hours ago, Palfy said: The truth is that different cultures lend themselves to different forms, and Russia seems to struggle with democracy. Their culture demands a strong man approach Honestly what have I miss understood from what was written there Formby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 More light hearted but historically accurate history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Honestly what have I miss understood from what was written there He says Russia, not Russians for a start and you started off being appalled at how he generalised a people when he was referring to the historical facts of a country. I'll let Steve try to explain his post better, I don't know how else to simplify my understanding of it any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Just because Russia had a revolution doesn’t mean that the people have a culture where democracy doesn’t work, if we are going to use that as a yard stick then history will say many countries have a culture why democracy doesn’t work and they only understand the big stick approach, but we have seen that not to be true when the people have had the opportunity live in a democracy. Spain, Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years but that doesn’t mean they are culturally incapable of living in a democracy so there for the man with the big stick is the best way forward for Russians. Personally I think that sort of believe is why we still have dictators like Putin in power you are in someways condoning how they run there countries and whilst people hold them beliefs people like Putin will always exist, and it’s nothing to do with culture the people are the culture of any country. My argument?! Honestly don't have the energy to continually correct you. Edit: the down vote is for suggesting I condone anything like that. For the most part I agree with the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Spain, Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years.... Russians have never had that opportunity in their history....ever, not just in the last hundred years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 24 minutes ago, Matt said: He says Russia, not Russians for a start and you started off being appalled at how he generalised a people when he was referring to the historical facts of a country. I'll let Steve try to explain his post better, I don't know how else to simplify my understanding of it any better. Steve actually says 'their culture' so this does seem to suggest he was referring to the Russian people. I accept this may have been a mistake, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2022 Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, Formby said: Steve actually says 'their culture' so this does seem to suggest he was referring to the Russian people. I accept this may have been a mistake, though. I put that down to poor choice of words too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 And so it begins. Putin has gone full on Hitler and lied through his teeth to the world. It started at Crimea and I remember posting at the time that was the start of WW3, just took a little longer than expected. Also, anyone seen how resource rich Ukraine is? Surprised me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 32 minutes ago, Matt said: And so it begins. Putin has gone full on Hitler and lied through his teeth to the world. It started at Crimea and I remember posting at the time that was the start of WW3, just took a little longer than expected. Also, anyone seen how resource rich Ukraine is? Surprised me. Yes, it was the reason Germany invaded Russia in WWII. If they'd taken the Caucusus for the oil fields, and left it at that, they would have won the war. The Baltic states will be worried now, maybe even Poland. Sanctions aren't going to do anything. China will still be trading with Russia, and secretly applauding. European military response - utterly ineffectual. US military response - they've said they're not going to put boots on the ground so also utterly ineffectual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 unreal..... they have a strong history for this. When Maradona died there were red noses trying to claim him....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted February 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Palfy said: Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. Yup, Joe's on it. Ukraine can rest easy. Sigh.... BRIEFING ROOM Statement by President Biden on Russia’s Unprovoked and Unjustified Attack on Ukraine FEBRUARY 23, 2022•STATEMENTS AND RELEASES The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces. President Putin has chosen a premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering. Russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the United States and its Allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way. The world will hold Russia accountable. I will be monitoring the situation from the White House this evening and will continue to get regular updates from my national security team. Tomorrow, I will meet with my G7 counterparts in the morning and then speak to the American people to announce the further consequences the United States and our Allies and partners will impose on Russia for this needless act of aggression against Ukraine and global peace and security. We will also coordinate with our NATO Allies to ensure a strong, united response that deters any aggression against the Alliance. Tonight, Jill and I are praying for the brave and proud people of Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Palfy said: Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. So is Boris. But, a face to face fight was never going to happen. The plan will be to bankrupt Russia again. This is the only real course of short term action without WW3 starting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Hafnia said: unreal..... they have a strong history for this. When Maradona died there were red noses trying to claim him....... Don't think it's the time to criticise any form of solidarity to be honest. The fact his opinion reaches and potentially influences millions is exactly the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 24 minutes ago, Matt said: So is Boris. But, a face to face fight was never going to happen. The plan will be to bankrupt Russia again. This is the only real course of short term action without WW3 starting Don’t disagree but where are the sanctions to end all sanctions they’ve been saying since November that this attack was going to happen, so every sanction should have been known and implemented at 04:00 not still being talked about 10 hours later, it’s weakness and Putin is feeding off it he has threatened the west that if anyone interferes with Russia they will In not so many words they will face a nuclear threat, and if we backdown he will go through one country to the next, WW3 will start if he is allowed to carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, Palfy said: Don’t disagree but where are the sanctions to end all sanctions they’ve been saying since November that this attack was going to happen, so every sanction should have been known and implemented at 04:00 not still being talked about 10 hours later, it’s weakness and Putin is feeding off it he has threatened the west that if anyone interferes with Russia they will In not so many words they will face a nuclear threat, and if we backdown he will go through one country to the next, WW3 will start if he is allowed to carry on. I agree. Thing is if you prepare to sanction a lunatic well in advance and they find out, it will encourage them to act even more irrationally or overreact. I do not like or agree with the approach, but I understand why it is moving so slow. Personally, I would've played my big card immediately and cut them off from SWIFT, freeze all imports etc. Trouble is, if you attack an economy it's the people will suffer from such actions rather than those fighting / organising the fights. Those organising the fights have more than enough for themselves and don't start fights without thinking they've got a surplus that will last them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 On 20/02/2022 at 14:59, Cornish Steve said: Four years ago, Putin saw an opportunity to split NATO by encouraging President Trump to threaten funding, question NATO's value, and adopt a caustic attitude toward the leaders of NATO countries. If this situation with Ukraine had happened back then, NATO might have disintegrated as an effective force. In less than 18 months, President Biden has reversed that trend. I suspect that Putin thought the cracks still existed, but instead he's facing a united NATO. In fact, his actions has led to the complete opposite result than he anticipated: America and others are calling his bluff. What is he going to do now? This is very opposite of appeasement. The West has learned its lesson. I'm yet to be convinced that America has learned its lesson about the folly of isolationism, but all credit to a president that's not waiting to find out but is taking the lead. I only hope that most Americans will follow - despite the predictable harping we're already hearing from Trumpists. Yesterday, Donald Trump called Vladimir Putin a genius and suggested America should send a "peace-keeping" force to its southern border with Mexico. Thank God this idiot is no longer US president. He would have split NATO asunder and Russian troops would be marching into Ukraine, Moldova, and the Baltic states. Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 Boris has set out Britain’s sanctions they don’t go far enough, so I will assume the rest of the G7 will be the same we should be taking away there use of the SWIFT banking system now not threatening to do so in the future, hit him and his Russian mafia where it will hurt the most immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, Palfy said: Boris has set out Britain’s sanctions they don’t go far enough, so I will assume the rest of the G7 will be the same we should be taking away there use of the SWIFT banking system now not threatening to do so in the future, hit him and his Russian mafia where it will hurt the most immediately. They do seem laughable really. but it's still ramping up. I think he's doing this so he can say "UK helped first" knowing that the EU and US are going to bring in their own. Plus sanctions hit our economy too, so by ramping up he's protecting the UK. SWIFT is a big deal. Personally I wish they'd just play that card but there's global implications of it so needs global support. That they've said it's not impossible is a good sign at least. Cornish Steve and Sibdane 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 This is not a time for appeasement/acceptance. Ukraine is not a NATO member, so it's inappropriate to respond militarily; however, in my opinion, we should use every non-military option available and now. Matt, MikeO and Sibdane 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 5 hours ago, Matt said: Don't think it's the time to criticise any form of solidarity to be honest. The fact his opinion reaches and potentially influences millions is exactly the right thing to do. Yeah probably right on reflection- certainly on this matter. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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