Israel

[Cornish Steve]

How anyone in Britain can be supporting Hamas at a time like this is beyond me, yet I'm reading reports of it. So many of my friends in Israel are sharing horrific reports and pictures of friends or family who were callously murdered in cold blood, innocents and not military targets, as cruel and barbaric as it gets. How can anyone look in someone's eyes and shoot them in cold blood? Not being physically present, there's no way we can truly understand the sheer inhumanity and terror of recent events, but this news reporter, for one, will never be the same.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/09/tl-nic-robertson-jake-tapper-live.cnn

[Matt]

Don't think either side has clean hands. Israel is currently murdering civilians and their razing their infrastructure too. As if Hamas are stupid enough to be in the strip... 

Its a clusterfuck thousands of years in the making. 

Edit: that's not condoning anything by the way. Im disgusted by all of it and I've not even researched yet. 

[Cornish Steve]

It's been years in the making, maybe, but it's always Israelis who face extreme barbarity. There's simply no equating sides here.

Take a look at the BBC news page right now. The main headline is that power is lost in Gaza. There's not a single news headline about the utter barbarity that took place in Israel. How can that be? It's disgusting, and I'm appalled at the bias.

I have many friends in Israel, and the constant stream of messages about this friend or that family member having been killed - and we're talking about women, children, the elderly, etc., not the military - is overwhelming. This atrocity is, in many ways, worse than 9/11 in the US, and the BBC doesn't even mention it among their headlines? Really?

[Matt]

Just now, Cornish Steve said:

It's been years in the making, maybe, but it's always Israelis who face extreme barbarity. There's simply no equating sides here.

Take a look at the BBC news page right now. The main headline is that power is lost in Gaza. There's not a single news items that tells us the utter barbarity that took place in Israel. How can that be? It's disgusting, and I'm appalled at the bias.

I have many friends in Israel, and the constant stream of messages about this friend or that family member having been killed - and we're talking about women, children, the elderly, etc., not the military - is overwhelming. This atrocity is, in many ways, worse than 9/11 in the US, and the BBC doesn't even mention it among their headlines? Really?

From their headline summary:

1. The death toll in Israel from the Hamas attacks has reached 1,200 - while more than 1,100 people have been killed by Israeli air strikes on Gaza

[Cornish Steve]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

From their headline summary:

1. The death toll in Israel from the Hamas attacks has reached 1,200 - while more than 1,100 people have been killed by Israeli air strikes on Gaza

What do you expect? Israel must and will defend itself. This is not on Israel, not one bit.

Compare the BBC's lack of news with CNN, for example:

- Children found butchered in Israeli kibbutz in an ISIS style of killing

- 'They cut heads off': IDF leader describes aftermath of attack.

And so on.

You know I have every sympathy with oppressed and overlooked groups; it's in my nature. But to blame Israel, as many in Britain seem to be doing, is simply disgraceful. What would we do in the face of sheer barbarity? Say that a response is wrong?

[Matt]

10 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

What do you expect? Israel must and will defend itself. This is not on Israel, not one bit.

Compare the BBC's lack of news with CNN, for example:

- Children found butchered in Israeli kibbutz in an ISIS style of killing

- 'They cut heads off': IDF leader describes aftermath of attack.

And so on.

You know I have every sympathy with oppressed and overlooked groups; it's in my nature. But to blame Israel, as many in Britain seem to be doing, is simply disgraceful. What would we do in the face of sheer barbarity? Say that a response is wrong?

The correct response is correct. When Ukraine got hit, it didn't retaliate by bombing Russian civilians. But they had also do terrible things prior to the invasion. 

Its front and centre of the BBC News website so not sure where you're looking. US news is going to be more anyways because of the culture and also the relationship.

Blame isn't relevant anyway, especially in such a turbulent conflict that's lasted centuries. Both sides are murdering kids, both sides are killing adults. Meanwhile, the powers responsible won't be in the strip which is now getting destroyed, starved and burned. 

I'm not trying to belittle this at all. It's just important to look at both sides of the coin. 

[Hafnia]

My simplistic way of looking at it is look at the map that compares the size of Palestine over the years….. they have quite clearly been moved from their land. 
 

I struggle to believe that the only barbaric element is from Palestinians.   I also struggle to believe that the western narrative isn’t heavily influenced by the likes of the USA whose senate is made up of 10% Jewish staff.

the fact is we are being told one side of the story, neither story is very nice at all

 

i can barely look at the tv screen to see babies being pulled from rubble. The world is a seriously fucked up place. 

[Cornish Steve]

I find it hard not to fume right now. "heavily influenced by the likes of the USA whose senate is made up of 10% Jewish staff"? Apologies, but this is outrageous, suggesting that Jews are to blame? Where have I heard that narrative before?

Was Britain wrong for bombing Germany into unconditional surrender? It was an existential threat. I've been to Israel many times, seen the conference rooms that double as safe rooms, heard rockets and bombs exploding in the distance, sat in a cafe, where locals were murdered by terrorists, understand how the nation's very existence is always under threat. Too many still would prefer them to disappear from the map, rewriting history as if they displaced previous inhabitants, ignoring how other nations around them have kept refugees in camps for decades. They face an existential threat, and it would be folly to just ignore it.

Yes, the innocent always get hurt, but there's a huge difference between innocents being killed as you attempt to disable rocket launchers placed in their buildings versus deliberately targeting children for death, raping women after killing their families, and attempting to wipe out entire communities. We need to face the fact that what happened in Israel was extreme barbarity, inhuman barbarity, cruelty of the worst kind, arguably worse than what happened on 9/11. I'd be outraged if Israel didn't respond. The deaths in Gaza are not on them; they are on those who authorized the attacks on Israel.

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

From their headline summary:

1. The death toll in Israel from the Hamas attacks has reached 1,200 - while more than 1,100 people have been killed by Israeli air strikes on Gaza

Yes, but also a litany of reports about what happened in Israel. Not a peep at the BBC site.

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The correct response is correct. When Ukraine got hit, it didn't retaliate by bombing Russian civilians. 

And how's that going? How many are dead in that conflict? And how long before the public gets bored and Russia wins?

There are times when it's wise to turn the other cheek, and there's wisdom in keeping emotion out of military responses, but there are also times to recognize extreme evil and stand up to it. Thank heaven our ancestors, while a little late, stood up to Germany - even though my mother was orphaned because of it.

[Matt]

27 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

And how's that going? How many are dead in that conflict? And how long before the public gets bored and Russia wins?

There are times when it's wise to turn the other cheek, and there's wisdom in keeping emotion out of military responses, but there are also times to recognize extreme evil and stand up to it. Thank heaven our ancestors, while a little late, stood up to Germany - even though my mother was orphaned because of it.

Who's turning the other cheek? I'm looking at both sides here, Steve, and both sides are committing awful crimes. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67073970?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6526bd5e8ae7803bb6842dc0%26Satellite images show scale of destruction%262023-10-11T17%3A47%3A01.779Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:b38e36ba-2d78-4210-9b94-156e5462587d&pinned_post_asset_id=6526bd5e8ae7803bb6842dc0&pinned_post_type=share

Doesn't look like a military area to me based on that before and after. 

[Matt]

18 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Yes, but also a litany of reports about what happened in Israel. Not a peep at the BBC site.

I copied that from their live feed, so no idea what you're talking about

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67073970

 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Yes, but also a litany of reports about what happened in Israel. Not a peep at the BBC site.

Sorry Steve you obviously feel strongly about this, but that's just not true. BBC has covered it totally impartially and without shock tactics like quoting the single journalist who reported (with no corroboration) "they cut heads off" which some news organisations parroted unchecked.

From Sky...

Stuart Ramsay interviewed two IDF majors - one of whom was a spokesman.

Ramsay said: "At no point did either he, or the other major I spoke to, ever mention that Hamas had beheaded or killed 40 babies or children. I believe that if it were the case, they would have told me and others there.

"There is no doubt that a horrific attack took place at Kfar Aza, and it needed to be reported, and we did see the bodies of the dead from the community in their houses, in the back of a truck, and on the basketball court.

"But it's important to separate the facts from speculation in a situation like this."

 

[MikeO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67083432

[Palfy]

What happened was a crime against humanity and holds no place in any fight or war, but sadly this isn’t the only crime perpetrated against humanity by both sides since Israel was formed 75 years ago. Unfortunately this is a new low in a conflict that will never end Israel will not be able in the not so distant future be able to defend itself in the way it has in the past, unless we condone that they should be allowed to eradicate every Hamas member and every Palestinian, but that cannot happen we can’t stand by and watch the Israeli's inflict a tit for tat on innocent women children and others who had nothing to do with what Hamas did, but we have to support the right of Israel to be able to enter Gaza in the pursuit of Hamas fighters a ground war will be better than indiscriminate bombing of Gaza where the innocent people bare the brunt.

 The most chilling thing is that most of the Middle East will never accept Israel as sovereign state so how will this ever end god knows or are we heading into a new norm in this conflict where humanity isn’t considered because of extreme hatred. 

[MikeO]

 

[Matt]

19 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What happened was a crime against humanity and holds no place in any fight or war, but sadly this isn’t the only crime perpetrated against humanity by both sides since Israel was formed 75 years ago. Unfortunately this is a new low in a conflict that will never end Israel will not be able in the not so distant future be able to defend itself in the way it has in the past, unless we condone that they should be allowed to eradicate every Hamas member and every Palestinian, but that cannot happen we can’t stand by and watch the Israeli's inflict a tit for tat on innocent women children and others who had nothing to do with what Hamas did, but we have to support the right of Israel to be able to enter Gaza in the pursuit of Hamas fighters a ground war will be better than indiscriminate bombing of Gaza where the innocent people bare the brunt.

 The most chilling thing is that most of the Middle East will never accept Israel as sovereign state so how will this ever end god knows or are we heading into a new norm in this conflict where humanity isn’t considered because of extreme hatred. 

quite a bit longer than 75 years mate. 

 

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

I copied that from their live feed, so no idea what you're talking about

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67073970

 

I took a picture of it. Reading this page, what would you conclude?

[Cornish Steve]

37 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What happened was a crime against humanity and holds no place in any fight or war, but sadly this isn’t the only crime perpetrated against humanity by both sides since Israel was formed 75 years ago. Unfortunately this is a new low in a conflict that will never end Israel will not be able in the not so distant future be able to defend itself in the way it has in the past, unless we condone that they should be allowed to eradicate every Hamas member and every Palestinian, but that cannot happen we can’t stand by and watch the Israeli's inflict a tit for tat on innocent women children and others who had nothing to do with what Hamas did, but we have to support the right of Israel to be able to enter Gaza in the pursuit of Hamas fighters a ground war will be better than indiscriminate bombing of Gaza where the innocent people bare the brunt.

 The most chilling thing is that most of the Middle East will never accept Israel as sovereign state so how will this ever end god knows or are we heading into a new norm in this conflict where humanity isn’t considered because of extreme hatred. 

Israel NEVER targets innocent women and children. It's a modus operandi of Hamas and Hezbollah that they position their weapons in schools, hospitals, and the like. What are Israel supposed to do then? And who's to blame when innocents are hurt in that scenario?

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Israel NEVER targets innocent women and children. It's a modus operandi of Hamas and Hezbollah that they position their weapons in schools, hospitals, and the like. What are Israel supposed to do then? And who's to blame when innocents are hurt in that scenario?

Two wrongs don't make a right. That simple. Targeting crowded residential areas is just as bad. 

My BBC News screen is dominated by this. Maybe your local version isn't but the UKs media is all over it.

 

 

[Matt]

Steve, I'm not sure what you wanted out of this thread but I'm guessing it's not an argument. I'm numb to the world at the moment, maybe that's why I may be coming across quite cold. 

Got a song playing that just sums it all up for me:

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Israel NEVER targets innocent women and children. It's a modus operandi of Hamas and Hezbollah that they position their weapons in schools, hospitals, and the like. What are Israel supposed to do then? And who's to blame when innocents are hurt in that scenario?

The pictures I’ve seen on the news of street after street completely turned to ruins would show a different story, there surely wasn’t Hamas fighters and weapons in every of those hundreds of buildings turned to rubble. Most of the world are in agreement that Israel have the right of reprisal but that has to be metered out in accordance with international law, and if it isn’t then Israel won’t get the backing of other nations. For every innocent mother or father they kill or son or daughter, they create further terrorists or fighters who want to kill Israelis for what’s happened to their families. Let’s not forget Gaza is home to 2 million people mostly innocent civilians who are being indiscriminately boomed and denied food and water and other humanitarian aid, which I believe breaks international law. Now I understand at this moment in time Israelis and Jews around the world couldn’t give a fuck about international law and what happens to anyone living in Gaza after the massacre in Israel, yet some form of restraint needs to be exercised or they  risk becoming the same as their enemies and that isn’t going to solve anything in the long term. I understand your anger Steve but believe me when I say Brits aren’t on the side of Hamas we are squarely on the side of Israel and it’s citizens and are repulsed by what as happened to the people of Israel. 

[StevO]

I honestly can’t say I’m on the side of Israel. Neither could I say I’m on the side of Palestine. 
I’ve met Israeli’s who think they are right, I’ve met Palestinians who live in Israel who have been persecuted all of their lives. 
 

There isn’t a chance I could pick a side in this. It’s a bloody mess, and I don’t see it being resolved in my life time. 

I just wish the world was a less divided place. War all over the place, politics putting neighbours in opposition with each other, hatred being part of daily life. It’s just a mess. 

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Steve, I'm not sure what you wanted out of this thread but I'm guessing it's not an argument. I'm numb to the world at the moment, maybe that's why I may be coming across quite cold. 

I'm not looking for an argument, for sure. I'm just amazed that the British press can't tell the difference between the callous targeting and slaughter of innocents from a nation striving to defend itself. There's a headline currently on the BBC site that says it all: "Why BBC doesn't say Hamas militants are terrorists". Of course they are terrorists! What else can you call them based on their actions? There's no moral equivalence here, not even close.

Are the BBC now going to refer to Hitler using the same terms as for Churchill? They were both simply wartime leaders doing the best for their people? We weren't at war against enemies; instead, we were as justified and as guilty as Nazis. Come on!! My mother lost her parents, war does that to people, but I live in a free country because Britain stood against evil.

[Matt]

6 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I'm not looking for an argument, for sure. I'm just amazed that the British press can't tell the difference between the callous targeting and slaughter of innocents from a nation striving to defend itself.There's a headline currently on the BBC site that says it all: "Why BBC doesn't say Hamas militants are terrorists". Of course they are terrorists! What else can you call them based on their actions? There's no moral equivalence here, not even close.

Are the BBC now going to refer to Hitler using the same terms as for Churchill? They were both simply wartime leaders doing the best for their people? We weren't at war against enemies; instead, we were as justified and as guilty as Nazis. Come on!! My mother lost her parents, war does that to people, but I live in a free country because Britain stood against evil.

"difference between the callous targeting and slaughter of innocents from a nation striving to defend itself". Which side are you talking about? Because Israel is currently mowing down the residents in Gaza, has cut off all their food and power. 

The Israeli military said more than 1,200 people, including 155 soldiers, have died in Israel since then it began (again). In Gaza, 1,055 people have been killed, including 260 children and 230 women, according to authorities there. Israel says hundreds of Hamas fighters are among them so they think its justified to kill thousands to target potential targets (not confirmed). Israel also was given warning about the attack and ignored it according to Egypt. So which part of all this is defence? 

As for the 9/11 comparison and it being "worse". It's not a competition, it's still horrific. Media sensationlising death and destruction for more clicks and views. But let's compare the response to 9/11 whereby the US and its bitch went and razed their way through 2 countries to "eradicate the threat and get revenge". We're the good guys obviously, we got Saddam killed. It only cost around 300,000 civilians but was fine because they attacked "us" first? Bullshit, evil begets evil and this is purely revenge, not defence. 

That same BBC article also explains very clearly why "The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts, and let them make up their own minds.".  

This is all another good example as to why I don't believe in borders or national pride. Brings nothing but death and destruction. 

[Formby]

The only way out of this terrible mess is through a viable two-state solution (the UN supported the idea of a return to 1967 borders, Hamas have accepted this, but the US has always vetoed it, saying the borders need to be negotiated on Israel's terms.)

While the House and Senate is beholden to AIPAC and others (check how many House representatives are pro-Palestinian So, just how powerful is the Israel lobby in the US? | The Independent | The Independent 2013) and Biden needs votes for an election next year, that is never going to happen.

America supplies Israel with 3.3 billion's worth of arms every year (Five things you should know about U.S. weapons transfers to Israel | American Friends Service Committee (afsc.org) so the military struggle is hopelessly one-sided.

Filthy, disgusting things have been done on both sides, like they were in Northern Ireland.

The game was up for the IRA when 9/11 happened. The US, now a victim of terrorism, pronounced war on it. They clamped down on the money the IRA was sourcing from America and the IRA had to negotiate.

When governments are beholden to any vested interest / powerful lobbying groups, this shit happens.

  

[Matt]

13 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I took a picture of it. Reading this page, what would you conclude?

Just realised thats the home page, bbc.com right? I never use that, I only go to BBC.com/news. The home page is basically just an entry portal with their main news story getting the largest icon. 

[Palfy]

17 hours ago, Matt said:

quite a bit longer than 75 years mate. 

 

As a conflict between people of different religions definitely, it’s not some where I would want to raise a family and try to keep them from harm, yet Jews from around the world still emigrate with their families to Israel on a regular basis to help protect, defend and develop their spiritual homeland, that says a lot about their faith and resolve in my book.  

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

As a conflict between people of different religions definitely, it’s not some where I would want to raise a family and try to keep them from harm, yet Jews from around the world still emigrate with their families to Israel on a regular basis to help protect, defend and develop their spiritual homeland, that says a lot about their faith and resolve in my book.  

Because they see it as their home and who can blame them. Judaism is millenia old, that is their home. Faith is a powerful thing and drives people of faith to do great good as well as great evil. 99% of the time its good. 

[Cornish Steve]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Because they see it as their home and who can blame them. Judaism is millenia old, that is their home. Faith is a powerful thing and drives people of faith to do great good as well as great evil. 99% of the time its good. 

The only country in the world with the same name, the same land, and the same faith as 3,000 years ago.