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Marcel Brands (DoF)

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Ziyech would be a good buy I think. We'll probably never see Dav, and Rooney sits back deeper now. Glyfi feels like our only true ACM and he needs solid competition. Lozano looks like he's only going to get better too.

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1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

So a bit like Countinho and Mahrez then?

Well they play wide and he is central and whenever I have seen him he has played like a true CM, not an AM. 

Coutinho is different as he isn' that weak but you wouldn' want Mahrez playing central midfield would you?

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51 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Praise the Lord, first step in removing the toxic management of our club.

Hopefully the fans will make  their views clear during the match tomorrow.

For the first time in months I can see some light and a way out of the  Allardyce / Walsh darkness.

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I'm not totally on board with a DoF, but one thing is for sure - if we're going down this road then that man has to be the total overseer of the whole thing. None of this shit about more than one person having a say in who comes and goes. Even the new manager. They must arrive knowing they're working under a DoF and it's their job to get the best out the squad that's provided to them.

We're far too muddled in our thinking, and that was highlighted in the summer where it's clear for all to see that both Walsh and Koeman were deciding things.

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Probably just re hashed as said but I'm hopeful.....well desperate

I think in regards to a DOF it's not something I've ever been to keen on tbh we've seen countless sides be very successful without them in previous years but it's a new age I guess and many if not all of the top sides use the model 

The one thing if he or someone similar comes in and we do go for the likes of Fonseca is it's a format that nigh on all these up and coming younger managers are used to working in and around unlike the managerial dinosaurs of this world that we currently have so in theory it should work far better 

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I think the latest news from Holland is from April 17, when a local Eindhoven newspaper (Eindhovens Dagblad) quoted Brands as saying that he "won't take much longer and will be making a decision soon". He said that "He hasn't made a decision yet", "that it is difficult to leave all this behind", "that at PSV he works with people he can trust and that he has relationships with them that he has cherished for years". PSV's CEO said in a TV show a couple of days earlier that Everton had come in for him, but that "if you know Brands, you know the race isn't over yet'. 'He has to be 100% sure, he implements a clear structure, he did at AZ and he did at PSV. If he moves then he'll need to be 100% sure about the move and if he feels something isn't quite right, then he'll simply say no". 

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4 minutes ago, Steve_E said:

I think the latest news from Holland is from April 17, when a local Eindhoven newspaper (Eindhovens Dagblad) quoted Brands as saying that he "won't take much longer and will be making a decision soon". He said that "He hasn't made a decision yet", "that it is difficult to leave all this behind", "that at PSV he works with people he can trust and that he has relationships with them that he has cherished for years". PSV's CEO said in a TV show a couple of days earlier that Everton had come in for him, but that "if you know Brands, you know the race isn't over yet'. 'He has to be 100% sure, he implements a clear structure, he did at AZ and he did at PSV. If he moves then he'll need to be 100% sure about the move and if he feels something isn't quite right, then he'll simply say no". 

Sounds like he won't come if fat Sam is still there.🙄

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20 minutes ago, johnh said:

Sounds like he won't come if fat Sam is still there.🙄

It made me think of the report that Walsh might stay on as well, doesn't sound like an ideal situation to come into. 

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Why? You rather have a model where the manager is changed to a completely different type every two years so the squad is always full of deadweight who don't fit into the current manager's style?

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One man can’t run a club in he modern game. We need mor expositions... doesn’t matter what you call him, head coach, DOF, head scout, head chef.... but we do need someone to help.

Remember Moyes being tuck at a match on the final day of deadline day and saying he didn’t get chance to concentrate on transfers as he had a match to look after.

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If someone thinks two years sounds pessimistic, nine of the current PL managers have been at their job for less than a year. Further three for less than two. So only 8 managers have been at their club for more than two years. Further three for less than three years. Only Wenger, Howe, Dyche, Pocchettino and Hughton have been at their club for more than three years. That's exactly one quarter. 

Without a DoF picking the manager would also be left to amateurs, like the CEO and board. They pick the next manager who is then given a transfer fund to buy players that happen to fit his philosophy (+ some old players he gets along with).

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13 hours ago, Shukes said:

One man can’t run a club in he modern game. We need mor expositions... doesn’t matter what you call him, head coach, DOF, head scout, head chef.... but we do need someone to help.

Remember Moyes being tuck at a match on the final day of deadline day and saying he didn’t get chance to concentrate on transfers as he had a match to look after.

 

12 hours ago, Makis said:

If someone thinks two years sounds pessimistic, nine of the current PL managers have been at their job for less than a year. Further three for less than two. So only 8 managers have been at their club for more than two years. Further three for less than three years. Only Wenger, Howe, Dyche, Pocchettino and Hughton have been at their club for more than three years. That's exactly one quarter. 

Without a DoF picking the manager would also be left to amateurs, like the CEO and board. They pick the next manager who is then given a transfer fund to buy players that happen to fit his philosophy (+ some old players he gets along with).

I'm still not sure what I think is best moving forward and I can see positives and negatives of both and I think there are lots of examples from both sides where it works and doesnt work. Makis you mentioned all of these clubs that change their manager less than every 2 years but the names you mention are all teams without DoF (as far as I know) and whilst Wenger is on the decline and they have just appointed a DoF, the others are well run clubs that punch above their weight. I think that your comments would also suggest that DoF are equally as poor at picking managers, and a bit like Everton, you can end up with the DoF's mate becoming your manager!

I get the point of a DoF but I don't like the idea of the manager just being responsible for the first team. How can that be beneficial to the club, especially not one that has our academy and our tradition of bringing young lads through the ranks and giving them a chance. As we have heard in comments from Allardyce, why should they give a shit about bringing kids through when its likely they wont be there a couple of years down the line. They feel like they need to win now, not develop talent and act in the long term future of the club. Just look at Dowell and Vlasic. Just for the sake of this example, lets say they are both good enough to be a top performing PL attacking midfielders in 2 seasons time but need that first team PL games to get there. Their path is now blocked by what feels like half a dozen attacking midfielders who will always start ahead of him due to the price tag. Then on top of that they have each other to beat to the same spot. Martinez could have gone out and bought a much more mature attacking midfielder rather than use Barkley, but he wanted to see the long term benefit of trusting Barkley to be his #1 in that position.

Then you have the issue that if the manager is only involved in running the first team then you get the same problems with signings he isnt fully on board with or ones that take longer to adapt like Allardyce has said about Klaassen. Do they have time to gradually get them up to speed or do they have to play someone who can get them results now?

In the same breath, you are both right in that the manager needs help to cover all these roles because they spend so much time on media duties now compared to the amount they used to 5 or 10 years ago. But who appoints these staff? The manager with people he trusts? The DoF who he might trust but the manager doesnt? The game is so high pressured now that I dont think you can have people around you that you dont trust.

I think I am coming full circle and that the DoF leads to too many conflicts. It creates a short term view and that isn'tt something that we as club should embrace. I don't want to see managers coming in basically saying they will be here for 3 years and then move on to a better job like Koeman kind of did. I want one vision for the future of the club and that for me means the Directors picking a candidate they believe in and be prepared to see it through if things dont start well. We want a manager to look through the age ranks and plan for the future of the club not just the following season.

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Those guys have been at their clubs exactly because they have been punching above their weight. We had Moyes who did the same. But it's really hard to find a manager who does better than average on the long run and still stays at the club instead of moving to bigger and better things.

DoF thing is prevalent in other big leagues as well as US sports. The thing to realise is that a good DoF is more important and more influential than a good manager. 

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5 minutes ago, Makis said:

Those guys have been at their clubs exactly because they have been punching above their weight. We had Moyes who did the same. But it's really hard to find a manager who does better than average on the long run and still stays at the club instead of moving to bigger and better things.

DoF thing is prevalent in other big leagues as well as US sports. The thing to realise is that a good DoF is more important and more influential than a good manager. 

Great point Makis and this is why i'm slowing coming around to the DOF model.  Examples of a good DOF club that would be applicable to us (ie i won't include Juve, Man City, Barca, etc)

 

Sevilla - Monchi 

Dortmund - Zorc

RB Salzburg/RB Leipzig - Rangnick

Atletico Madrid - Berta 

Mainz/Schalke - Heidel

 

most if not all had managers coming and going (monchi had 9) and still won trophies, kept the academy kids coming through and were astute in the transfer market.  One could make an argument like Makis that the DOF model actual ensures stability if chosen correctly.

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with a director of football we also need a director of kit care a director of looking after the players families and so on because there is not a manager in the would that can actually manage a team now.  bollox.  we need no Sodding DoF ( do any of you remember how the busses used to be clean enough to look out of the windows?  that was down to the driver until we had a water shortage and they stopped doing the job back then to save water,... we seem to need to  get back to where people did the job they are meant to do, even the dirty bits,  I want to see out of the bus windows again.  Lets get a manager drive the club forward and fuck this idea of employing any one you can think of to order the manager around,  we have an owner and a chairman, that was always enough when we were good and if they fuck up we have a board of directors to hold them up to the public scrutiny. 

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1 hour ago, Makis said:

Those guys have been at their clubs exactly because they have been punching above their weight. We had Moyes who did the same. But it's really hard to find a manager who does better than average on the long run and still stays at the club instead of moving to bigger and better things.

DoF thing is prevalent in other big leagues as well as US sports. The thing to realise is that a good DoF is more important and more influential than a good manager. 

Thats a good point, but it's a chicken and egg type scenario. Some sides work really well with a DoF and some work really well with just a manager. For every Sevilla (Monchi / Emery) and there is a Southampton where it has gone tits up. For every Fergie that leaves there is a Moyes / Van Gaal that follows. 

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The difference here is that if you do find a good DoF then that good manager leaving is not such a big deal. And a good manager can somewhat offset a not-so-good DoF. Will Burnley find as good a manager when Dyche leaves? Probabilities are against that. Especially as the squad is now all his doing.

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13 minutes ago, Makis said:

The difference here is that if you do find a good DoF then that good manager leaving is not such a big deal. And a good manager can somewhat offset a not-so-good DoF. Will Burnley find as good a manager when Dyche leaves? Probabilities are against that. Especially as the squad is now all his doing.

Thats just as true as a good Chairman appointing a good next manager. Les Reed was being hailed as genius at Soton until it started to falter in the last couple of years. West Brom have a DoF and they have gone through God knows how many unsuccessful managers and styles of play since he has been there. Any success a DoF model can have a manager can too and any pitfall a manager can have a DoF can too. The Chairman or board can set the tone of the club the same was a DoF can. Whichever model you choose it' probably more about doing it well than one being better than the other. Personally I don't think this club suits the DoF model.

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I actually think Reed has done a great job except the mass migration of players.  Had he held onto a couple of the top players for another year (still let them leave just drag feet) he could have a better squad now.  Potch and koeman and puel were all good appointments who kept them up and got Europe and a cup final (some did).  For a small club like them that’s massive!  They’ve botched it once they got rid of puel and the fiasco this year, but on the whole he’s been the only reason they have stayed up. 

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11 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

I actually think Reed has done a great job except the mass migration of players.  Had he held onto a couple of the top players for another year (still let them leave just drag feet) he could have a better squad now.  Potch and koeman and puel were all good appointments who kept them up and got Europe and a cup final (some did).  For a small club like them that’s massive!  They’ve botched it once they got rid of puel and the fiasco this year, but on the whole he’s been the only reason they have stayed up. 

Pochettino and Koeman were very good appointments but in my opinion they masked what was an increasing problem. The quality of the players was decreasing, the youth werent being brought through and then they went to a manager in Puel that set them up not to lose. I'm not a fan of Puel myself and it doesnt look like he will be at Leicester much longer either. He did well to get them into the League Cup final though but they were starting to slide under him. I was surprised when they sacked him, but then they gambled with Pellegrino which didnt work and was a completely different style of play and then held onto him for far too long before going to Hughes which is different again. All the problems that people have highlighted with the 'manager' model have all come to fruition under a DoF at Southampton.

They aren't that small as a club, they had a long history of being in the top flight prior to their financial issues, but they are now a very rich club and shouldn't be involved in a relegation scrap.

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4 hours ago, Makis said:

And let me guess, then he wants to go on holiday and decide after that?

Fuck, Koeman did the same. He's trying to squeeze more money from us. Fucking greedy Dutch.

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I actually respect the fact that he is respecting his current position. He should be waiting until the end of the season to make any decisions. His current focus should be his current team, or he isn’t worst a penny.

We should be looking past mercenaries now and start looking at proper staff.

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7 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I actually respect the fact that he is respecting his current position. He should be waiting until the end of the season to make any decisions. His current focus should be his current team, or he isn’t worst a penny.

We should be looking past mercenaries now and start looking at proper staff.

Exactly.

Let the guy finish his contract off and then do whatever he wants to do.

He's probably just trying to give as diplomatic an answer as he can from this constant question being fired at him by the press.

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Sounds positive. I have high hopes for him as he seems to have a very good track record of turning teams around. 

Like Romey said, it would give me hope that Allardyce will go and brands will then play a part in getting a new manager in.

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1 hour ago, tonkaroost said:

Likewise, but I won't believe it's confirmed until it's on the official site.

Joyce is good enough for me he is 9/10 spot on. Or maybe that's desperation clouding my feelings!

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18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I wonder if Walsh is getting completely fucked off or just shuffled off into a new position. 

Can see him becoming a head scout, at least for 1 year to try and redeem himself, if he doesn't produce then he'll be booted.

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8 minutes ago, aaron said:

Can see him becoming a head scout, at least for 1 year to try and redeem himself, if he doesn't produce then he'll be booted.

if so he needs to be put under brands, i don't want him sticking around just cause he's kissed up to moshiri and causing friction.

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14 minutes ago, aaron said:

Can see him becoming a head scout, at least for 1 year to try and redeem himself, if he doesn't produce then he'll be booted.

I can't imagine he'll accept a demotion. Hasn't been with us long enough to have any loyalty to the club.

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