Moyes: We May Lose Fellaini

[Romey 1878]

just don't accept the 1 offer then if you know more clubs are in for him

 

 

But you won't know other clubs are in for him until it's too late.

[FanchesterCity]

 

nah, thats not price fixing.

price fixing is if ford, vauxhall, toyota and mazda decide they will sell the same catagory car for the same price.

 

a price can change from minute to minute, i can sell you something with a discount fo 20%, it doesnt mean i have to sell it to everyone at that price.

if you are a seller you dictate the price as you see fit.

 

also the not selling to a rival thing, you do not have to sell anything to anyone if you so wish. each offer and acceptance is its very own contract.

 

seriously, go and study some business legislation. i've had way too many days/meetings/confrences where our legal dept arm us with this info, it comes in handy when idiot who think they know the sales of goods and services act come in mouthing off with "im gunna sue you" "go ahead" becomes an easy reply.

 

 

That's not actually accurate...

 

Price fixing is two fold

 

a) Any collusion to set a minimum price between two or more business entities (usually large firm, but can actually be your local shop) - aka horizontal price fixing.

Failure to offer that price across the market in an impartial manner <---- this is the aspect that matters in this case

 

The latter is a much more tricky issue, since a player is a one off item and can only be sold 'once', and price isn't just "10 million quid", it's obfuscated with 1001 different caveats, stages payments, commissions etc all designed to make one 'deal' incomparable with another.

 

It's a bit like you getting a job with a the local authority and your mate hires you. They really need to be interviewing others too even though it's a stitch up and the job is yours!

[FanchesterCity]

 

 

That's not actually accurate...

 

Price fixing is two fold

 

a) Any collusion to set a minimum price between two or more business entities (usually large firm, but can actually be your local shop) - aka horizontal price fixing.

Failure to offer that price across the market in an impartial manner <---- this is the aspect that matters in this case

 

The latter is a much more tricky issue, since a player is a one off item and can only be sold 'once', and price isn't just "10 million quid", it's obfuscated with 1001 different caveats, stages payments, commissions etc all designed to make one 'deal' incomparable with another.

 

It's a bit like you getting a job with a the local authority and your mate hires you. They really need to be interviewing others too even though it's a stitch up and the job is yours!

 

It's simply 'tricky' ground when you say "we have a player for sale and it's only available for sale to competitors a,b & c, but not x,y,z' that then CAN be construed as collusion / anti competitive. - but it's much harder to equate a player with a 'product'

[FanchesterCity]

Chapter I of the CA98 and Article 81 prohibit agreements between businesses that prevent, restrict or distort competition or are intended to do so and which affect trade in the UK and/or EU.

Agreements likely to be prohibited include those which:

• fix the prices to be charged for goods or services
  
• limit production
  
• carve up markets
  
• discriminate, e.g. between customers (e.g. charge different prices or impose different terms where there is no difference in what is being supplied).
  

it's the 4th element that CAN be open to interpretation. It doesn't mean you CANT 'negotiate' different deals for each customer, but you can't have anything in place to inhibit a certain price or sale.

 

So, if two clubs come in for the same player... (Liverpool and Udinese) and you see to Udinese, it's usually fine. But if you did that repeatedly and Liverpool kept offering all the same terms etc, you'd be in a bit of bother justifying how you hadn't disciminated

[pete0]

Man U sold Heinze for a lower price than Liverpool offered. Liverpool kicked up a fuss but Heinze still ended up else where.

clubs agreeing to stick at the same offer is colluding, like us and villa for Beattie which is illegal.

 

I think players should be auctioned off to get the best price. If it was live would certainly make for great viewing. However it would make it harder to find less known gems, but stop dodgy deals like Standard Lieges players going on the cheap this season.

Edited September 29, 2011 by pete0

[Louis]

Sky would love that, 'players under the hammer'.

[FanchesterCity]

Brilliant!

 

And actually, there's some sense to it... makes it all transparent!

 

 

Wouldn't Karen Brady's husband (ex footballer) be a player under a hammer? ;-)

[FanchesterCity]

I think there's a lot of stuff in football is potentially illegal - it's just it doesn't get challenged.

 

I know the RFU in New Zealand actually gave a 'preliminary ruling' that a bunch of rules on wage caps and fees was price fixing! they asked the NZ Commercial Authority to rule on it and they judged against imposing the rules on price fixing grounds!

 

There's stuff like 'only x foreigners' in the team which is also questionable (for Europeans)... it just takes another Bosnan to take it to court.

 

Similar with bloody TV rights - a TOTAL stitch up - but I think from memory Sky lost a recent case on that - couldn't stop a woman from getting football from Greece... might be wrong on which way that went.

 

I wish they'd just hammer Blatter - repeatedly.

Then Gordon Taylor with his bloody liberal attitude to that stunt Tevez pulled. Gutless tosser. Don't get me started on HIM though

[Petetn]

Buying players isn't correct legal terminology. Buying humans is illegal under human rights law. What clubs do is in fact paying compensation to the players club for breaking the players contract. So EU trade-law doesn't apply.

 

This is also why players can free themselves from their contract when their club is demanding a transferprice deemed unreasonable. Player will just have to repay the club for any damages suffered (usually considerably lower than any transferprice). It's because off this risk that clubs started using minimum release fee clauses: if a player knows in advance what the minimum release fee is he can't argue that it's unreasonable.

[FanchesterCity]

That's not quite true either.

 

But you're right, you don't actually buy the person.

 

The transfer fee is precisely that, a fee from the buying to the selling party of an amount that's acceptable to the selling party, in return they'll waive / terminate his contract. It's not true compensation, but yes, in 'effect' it is.

 

The reason they can free themselves from a contract is because it's illegal to stop someone breaking it! You can sign a contract to play for a club, then change your mind. The club cannot prevent you quitting your job and seeking employment elsewhere, but you must compensate them accordingly.

 

What can happen in the case of a player wanting to leave, AND the club deliberately asking to much for him is that the club is willfully obstructing his attempt to seek employment elsewhere by way of player registration etc. Technically, he can just resign and pay them compensation, but then he's still got a hurdle regarding his registration and ability to play elsewhere (but he could have course, go and be a fireman!). Most players are not in a position, or are unwilling to ever pay such compensation and so effectively they require a club to come in and fork up the money.

 

This is half the issue with Tevez at the moment. He could be fired, and then he's free to do what he likes, or he can resign and be liable to compensate City (clearly he doesn't love his homeland enough to do that!).

 

FIFA though have some nice little extras too.... IF a player unilaterally breaks a contract:

 

If the player is under 23 they have to pay a 'training compensation' to the club

The first 3 years of a contract are specially protected, so that if a player unilaterally breaks their contract, they get a 4 month ban from the sport, and must compensate the club based on their current salary AND the period left on their contract and/or in accordance with the relevant national law (no notice is taken of their potential transfer value, it's just wages and outstanding years)

 

FIFA negotiated this with the European Commission.

[FanchesterCity]

Read this a few times, it's slightly heavy reading - but relates the the 'after 3 years into your contract' rule:

 

THE WEBSTER, MUTU AND METUZALEM CASES

The new transfer regulations, however have been slow in being applied to football and it was only in 2008 that the Court of Arbitration for Sport finally ruled that the new regulations effectively abolished transfer fees for players who were out of their 'protected period' in the case of Heart of Midlothian v Webster and Wigan Athletic, (2008, CAS Decisions: 2007/A/1298-1300). Andy Webster had been a plauyer at Hearts who effectively handed in his notice to Hearts FC and signed for Wigan Athletic. He had served 3 years of a 4 year contract. The SFA’s attempt to prevent the release of his International Transfer Certificate was blocked by FIFA’s player status committee who ruled the player’s actions followed the new rules (because his protected period had expired). Hearts tried to claim a £5m transfer fee for the player. In January 2008 CAS ruled that Hearts could not demand a transfer fee and the actual amount of compensation was £150,000 – which was the residual amount of the contract remaining when Webster resigned. The case appeared to effectively implement the 2001 regulations in the way they were intended. It was thought that as a result of this case, any player who is 2 or 3 years into their contract can resign and move to a club of their choice without it having a pay a transfer fee.

However the decisions of CAS in the cases of Mutu v Chelsea and Shaktar Donetsk v Matuzalem (both 2008) cast severe doubt as to how compensation for unilateral contract breach will be determined. In both cases, CAS awarded huge amounts of compensation to the club that was the victim of the breach that was akin to a transfer fee. If these cases are followed as a precident, rather than the decision in Webster, then it is likely that we will see another case before the European Court of Justice. The ECJ has in fact recently ruled that compensation for training costs is onlyproportionate and legal under EU law if it genuinely reflects the actual amount lost by the contract breach (in the Olympique Lyonnais v Bernard and Newcastle United [2009] ECJ Case C-325/08 case). At the moment the entire issue is clouded with uncertainty.

 

 

Basically - it's a MESS - they haven't a clue how to properly apply the rulings.

 

This is also one of the 'secret' reasons clubs like to renegotiate contracts - to keep that 3 year ruling topped up. If a player signs for 5 years, and has already done 3 - they are in the potential 'zone' where a player can just walk anyway. Neither the club, nor the player's advisor (if any good) could be certain of which way CAS might rule (if it went to court)

Edited September 29, 2011 by BlueSky

[StevO]

my companies legal dept would love you!

[FanchesterCity]

Sport and Law don't mix well.

 

FIFA and UEFA think they are law makers and keep getting found out. UEFA have already lost a number of cases relating to ticket price monopoly.

 

Man United / Umbro / Allsports / JJB / Sport Soccer / Blacks and The Football Association have all been found guilty of colluding to price fix (on replica kit)

 

You just don't hear about this stuff too much - they like to keep it quiet!

 

(case CA98/06/2003) if you're that way inclined.

[Billsabell]

We may lose fellaini?

 

As a die hard everton fan i dont understand the pure affection given to Fellaini. I have come to a point were i am not going to sit here and rip into the guy but would like some understanding as to what i am missing in this player.

 

Every time i watch this joke. He is the slowest player i have ever seen. No matter how fast the pace of the game is he will cotinue to go at his own pace. I cant you how many games i have watched were it has passed him by.

 

He hasn't got a shot on him, hence the awful attempt in the last 10 minutes against city.

 

He tackles like Robbie Savage. Niggles like a S**t bag at players with two feet but you never see him slide tackle any player.

 

He looks visually awkward all the time and tries to play box to box whilst opposing players go past him without him noticing.

 

The only game i was impressed with was the man city game 2 years ago. He was made to play as a holding midfielder and was world class. Asked to do anything else and he comes up far too short for my liking.

 

As i said, i am not having a deliberate go at the lad but i am shocked at the number of top clubs linked with this lad constantly.

[SimonButtle]

We may lose fellaini?

 

As a die hard everton fan i dont understand the pure affection given to Fellaini. I have come to a point were i am not going to sit here and rip into the guy but would like some understanding as to what i am missing in this player.

 

Every time i watch this joke. He is the slowest player i have ever seen. No matter how fast the pace of the game is he will cotinue to go at his own pace. I cant you how many games i have watched were it has passed him by.

 

He hasn't got a shot on him, hence the awful attempt in the last 10 minutes against city.

 

He tackles like Robbie Savage. Niggles like a S**t bag at players with two feet but you never see him slide tackle any player.

 

He looks visually awkward all the time and tries to play box to box whilst opposing players go past him without him noticing.

 

The only game i was impressed with was the man city game 2 years ago. He was made to play as a holding midfielder and was world class. Asked to do anything else and he comes up far too short for my liking.

 

As i said, i am not having a deliberate go at the lad but i am shocked at the number of top clubs linked with this lad constantly.

answering your own question? it is his best position, anywhere else and yes, he does look like a fish out of water

[Billsabell]

If moyes plays 5 midfielders tomorrow am going to cry myself to sleep. I am sick of him playing a ultra defensive approach to anyone above 6th in the premiership.

 

He states we done well for 70mins against city. If any team in the premiership went there with that mental approach and set up, they too would probably of got the same results for 70 minutes. Swansea went there to get something better out the game. They could still keep city to 0-0 up to half time.

 

It really concerns me that promoted sides play with no experience but no fear either. We, on the other hand, play with fear in every game.

 

We're goin backwards as a club and every evertonian is being brainwashed and settling for mediocracy.

[c1982]

Our 4-5-1 is hopefully evolving into a 4-2-3-1. In Drenthe and Coleman we have pace out wide at last so we should hopefully be playing with a more attacking style.

 

All we really lack is an all round striker... we have a couple who could develop and one who could do it in the past but we all know this is where we lack.

[Avinalaff]

If moyes plays 5 midfielders tomorrow am going to cry myself to sleep. I am sick of him playing a ultra defensive approach to anyone above 6th in the premiership.

 

He states we done well for 70mins against city. If any team in the premiership went there with that mental approach and set up, they too would probably of got the same results for 70 minutes. Swansea went there to get something better out the game. They could still keep city to 0-0 up to half time.

 

It really concerns me that promoted sides play with no experience but no fear either. We, on the other hand, play with fear in every game.

 

We're goin backwards as a club and every evertonian is being brainwashed and settling for mediocracy.

 

There are times when you have to step backwards in order to move forwards. We'll still be in with our usual Europa challenge come the end of the season.

[Hafnia]

We may lose fellaini?

 

As a die hard everton fan i dont understand the pure affection given to Fellaini. I have come to a point were i am not going to sit here and rip into the guy but would like some understanding as to what i am missing in this player.

 

Every time i watch this joke. He is the slowest player i have ever seen. No matter how fast the pace of the game is he will cotinue to go at his own pace. I cant you how many games i have watched were it has passed him by.

 

He hasn't got a shot on him, hence the awful attempt in the last 10 minutes against city.

 

He tackles like Robbie Savage. Niggles like a S**t bag at players with two feet but you never see him slide tackle any player.

 

He looks visually awkward all the time and tries to play box to box whilst opposing players go past him without him noticing.

 

The only game i was impressed with was the man city game 2 years ago. He was made to play as a holding midfielder and was world class. Asked to do anything else and he comes up far too short for my liking.

 

As i said, i am not having a deliberate go at the lad but i am shocked at the number of top clubs linked with this lad constantly.

 

I know where you are coming from, I was there and my brother still is. He needs to be 100% fit and he needs to be playing as a defensive midfielder.

 

Unfortunately our illustrious manager seems to look at his height in times of need and play him in an advanced position where you need more agility, acceleration and killer passes (osman maybe mr moyes?) - he is very Sunday league esque is our canny manager.

 

Anyway, back to fellaini, not perfect or the finished article, however, watch his positioning - flawless. He isn't zippy I'll give you that, and that was my concern, but at holding midfield, you don't need to be. His tackling isn't bad, he seems to have that awful tag that will only go if he plays for a top 4 team. I would like to see him be a little more incisive with his passing as I do think he has a lovely weight to it.

[c1982]

Excellent today.

[Hafnia]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-news/fellaini-open-your-wallet-kenwright/

 

Call me a cynic but surely he knows more than anyone else that we have not got a bean to spend - so that brings me to the point - why is he making this statement if he knows it isn't going to happen?!

 

Unfortunately I think Felli will be gone in the summer, I think this is the start of what will be played out as "Ambitious Fellaini seeks Top 4, champions league team" - then along comes Sir Alex Ferguson with a cheeky £25m bid - that money then goes ande gets swallowed up to appease the banks.

 

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm not wrong to suspect something...

[holystove]

having read the quote at the end of the article, i don't see anything special about what he said. title of the article should be "fellaini: reinforcements would make us more competitive" ... which is just a bland statement.

Edited April 17, 2012 by holystove

[c1982]

Hopefully he has been misquoted or this has been lost in translation...

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/manchester-united-and-chelsea-target-fellaini-says-he-wants-to-le

[pete0]

Hopefully he has been misquoted or this has been lost in translation...

http://sportwitness....-he-wants-to-le

'Fellaini can hardly say he's been misquoted given how clear the quotes are.'

... I'm sure he made his replies in English

[Romey 1878]

I'm having problems viewing the page, can someone paste what he's said please?

[pete0]

Manchester United and Chelsea target Fellaini says he wants to leave Everton

 

In quotes that will rock Everton and get cheque books flexing all around the Premier League, Marouane Fellaini has said that he wants to leave Everton and try new experiences soon.

The midfielder was heavily linked with both Chelsea and Manchester United this summer. The Daily Star said in July that the Old Trafford club had a fight on their hands for the midfielder with Chelsea ready battle for a player they valued at around £20m.

His performance against Sir Alex Ferguson's team at Goodison Park again heightened links and supporters were clamouring for a last ditch effort to sign him. By that stage both United and Chelsea had done the majority of their transfer window business and a move was unlikely.

Today he's quoted by Belgian newspaper Nieuwsblad as saying "I begin now my fifth season at Everton, this will be one of my last.

"I've seen everything. In January or at the end of the season I would look for another club or league."

Those are very strong words from the big midfielder, a cult hero at Everton, and will certainly put him right into the spotlight. International breaks often bring out these things from players, luckily for David Moyes the transfer window is closed. Fellaini can hardly say he's been misquoted given how clear the quotes are.

It's a sudden change from Fellaini and could biazrrely have been sparked by Everton's loan deal for Vadis Odjidja-Ofoe falling through. Fellaini said at the end of his comments regarding leaving "It's a pity incidentally that Vadis did not come to Everton."

Prepare for a huge transfer saga.

Edited September 9, 2012 by pete0

[c1982]

 

'Fellaini can hardly say he's been misquoted given how clear the quotes are.'

... I'm sure he made his replies in English

 

Not if he was interviewed by Belgian media!? Why would they speak to him in English?

Edited September 9, 2012 by c1982

[Zoo]

I can't say I'm surprised to be honest, playing with Belgium he's with players who are competing at Champions League level and we cannot give him that at the moment. I don't think Moyes would let him leave in January but should we fail to get into the Top 4 this season (which is a real possibility) then I woulden't be surprised if he moved to a bigger club.

 

He could however be mis-quoted, you know what the press are like.

[Blue 250]

Same old story, you don't keep an unhappy player, you can try and make him happy ie take a long hard look at his contract and if he's really that important give in a bit, could be worth it in the long run.

 

The thing is if he REALLY wants to go.....let him go for REALLY big money.

 

Fellaini isn't an Everton fan, people need to understand this.He wants as much money and trophies as he can get.He probably has feelings for Everton, but that's as far as it goes.

 

We might finish 5th this year with Fellaini.....we could finish 5th this year if he leaves in January and Moyes spends the £30million wisely.

[Romey 1878]

I feel sick .