Moyes

[Mogsy]

I think bar the arsenal fixture, all the fixtures until we play man city are going to be massively telling, We need 24ish points out of the out of the available 33. Forget arsenal, they'll win, we'll struggle against villa at villa park, point at most, every other game we need points, no reason why on paper we should win all home games and I would be disappointed if we lose any of the away games. Massive few months for us and Moyes!

[FanchesterCity]

I think bar the arsenal fixture, all the fixtures until we play man city are going to be massively telling, We need 24ish points out of the out of the available 33. Forget arsenal, they'll win, we'll struggle against villa at villa park, point at most, every other game we need points, no reason why on paper we should win all home games and I would be disappointed if we lose any of the away games. Massive few months for us and Moyes!

I agree, your fixture list up to xmas is very good. Loads of hope for optimism there. At xmas (having played those games) it will be a far better picture of where you're at.

 

It's just a shame that you're entering those games looking over your shoulder a bit - which just adds to tension, but I reckon you can expect 12 points from the next 6 or 7 games (if you play to your potential)

[pete0]

I'll tell you what I'll do...

 

I'll put 20 quid on Everton finishing below Spurs and Liverpool. And you only need to finish higher than one of them?

 

Deal?

Change it to Everton to finish above Villa, Stoke and Fulham. Then I'd take the bet.

[Mogsy]

 

I agree, your fixture list up to xmas is very good. Loads of hope for optimism there. At xmas (having played those games) it will be a far better picture of where you're at.

 

It's just a shame that you're entering those games looking over your shoulder a bit - which just adds to tension, but I reckon you can expect 12 points from the next 6 or 7 games (if you play to your potential)

 

Yeah as has been said loads before we wouldn't be in this position if we had pick up the points against the top tier teams as we did last season

[FanchesterCity]

Change it to Everton to finish above Villa, Stoke and Fulham. Then I'd take the bet.

 

Aye go on then. It'll add some excitement each week!

 

Deal

[pete0]

 

Aye go on then. It'll add some excitement each week!

 

Deal

Virtual hand shake

[StevO]

 

What makes you think he is doing bad Steve?

 

What is your expectation of him?

 

What is your expectation regarding a finishing position?

 

What obstacles are in his way in order to achieve your expectation?

 

what makes me think hes doing bad is that last season we attacked teams, even those better than us, this season we do not seem to be attacking and we look like we are playing for draws. also the way we have played the same formation for the whole of his time here. ferguson will alwasy be the bench mark. he has gone from 442, to 451, to 433, to 424, back to 433 and now back to 442. where moyes has kept the same 451 constantly. this is part of why teams find us out, they are used to how we play. when teams get used to how fergies teams play, he changes it.

 

my expectation of him. i expect him to set out in a more positive manner. even in his early years with smiths old squad he set out to put pressure on teams. now he is either telling the players to sit back more, or he is telling them to attack and they are ignoring him. i expect him to try to change the way the team attack too. we very rarely have shots from distance, we pretty much always play to the wings then look for a high cross into the box. its very predictable, stop the cross, stop everton. even the odd cross on the floor to mix it up. again its either poor tactics laid out by the manager or the players are not being coached to have more variety in their play.

 

regarding finishing position. this season top half will be more than good. but none of my issues are due to our league positioning. my issues are due to us being the same each week. if us as fans can guess how we are going to play, then surely the opposition can too. i understand the lack of playing staff at the club, which is why we need to coaching staff to step it up.

 

to achieve my expectation, i dont think there are many obstacles as i do not believe my expectations are high. im not asking us to win the league, im not even asking us to win a cup. im asking that we dont just roll over. against a poor united team, they were never troubled, against a newcastle team missing 3 of 4 midfielders we didnt trouble. when we get the ball in their half we can all see the next pass. its going out wide, we are pushing to the side of their box and crossing it in.

 

(this has turned into a great thread by the way)

[StevO]

 

Shay Given

Stilyan Petrov

Charles N'Zogbia

Darren Bent

Kenwyn Jones

Peter Crouch

John Arne Rise

Danny Murphy

 

Petrov would not get in before Rodwell or Fellaini, Risse has no chance ahead of Baines, Murphy, see Petrov.

Given and Howard, not sure there. I'll give you the forwards though, as we have none.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Agree on Riise, that was a total mistake on my part. Baines every day.

 

Not sure on Petrov, long term rodwell's clearly the winner, but I still rate Petrov even if not as good as he once was due to old age!

 

The trouble with things like this is you get into daft arguments about individual players and it's not realistic. On paper most of City are better than United, but come the end of the season, I still fancy United to win the league. There's more to it that just individuals.

 

It's like saying "spurs beat fulham, and we beat spurs, so we should beat fulham" - if only football was that simple!

[c1982]

It's like saying "spurs beat fulham, and we beat spurs, so we should beat fulham" - if only football was that simple!

 

But we beat fulham and haven't played spurs yet!!! - I'm confused!

[FanchesterCity]

Told ya it was complicated!

 

was just an example of football logic doesn't work! or 'player A is better then player B' - sometimes a team just gels better!

[c1982]

Told ya it was complicated!

 

was just an example of football logic doesn't work! or 'player A is better then player B' - sometimes a team just gels better!

 

Oh you were talking about Man.City again - my bad!

[FanchesterCity]

Nah, no City chat on here (other than what would normally come up anyway).

 

Just the comparing teams player by player just doesn't work in my opinion. Sometimes a player isn't quite are good as another on paper, but he fits into your team better - maybe it's his style of play, or attitude, or workrate etc. Might even be his age - that an old head is what's needed for some teams, whilst a spritely young kid is right for another.

 

I was just on about how football doesn't pan out the way we'd think

 

Team A beat Team B

Team B beat Team C

 

Then Team C go and beat Team A <-- shouldn't happen logically, but it does!

[Avinalaff]

Bluesky, as much as it will piss me off, I think City will win the league. I'll gladly discuss it in more depth in another thread.

 

PeteO, I'm not sure how you can put us in the same bracket as Liverpool. Liverpool are amongst the elite in world football as much as I don't like their fans, even if they have done nothing since the Prem began. Spurs have a squad so superior to ours it's untrue, even if I think it's still a close contest on the pitch in recent times.

 

It would be cool though if we can stay on topic with this one, especially with it being about Moyes.

[Avinalaff]

 

what makes me think hes doing bad is that last season we attacked teams, even those better than us, this season we do not seem to be attacking and we look like we are playing for draws. also the way we have played the same formation for the whole of his time here. ferguson will alwasy be the bench mark. he has gone from 442, to 451, to 433, to 424, back to 433 and now back to 442. where moyes has kept the same 451 constantly. this is part of why teams find us out, they are used to how we play. when teams get used to how fergies teams play, he changes it.

 

my expectation of him. i expect him to set out in a more positive manner. even in his early years with smiths old squad he set out to put pressure on teams. now he is either telling the players to sit back more, or he is telling them to attack and they are ignoring him. i expect him to try to change the way the team attack too. we very rarely have shots from distance, we pretty much always play to the wings then look for a high cross into the box. its very predictable, stop the cross, stop everton. even the odd cross on the floor to mix it up. again its either poor tactics laid out by the manager or the players are not being coached to have more variety in their play.

 

regarding finishing position. this season top half will be more than good. but none of my issues are due to our league positioning. my issues are due to us being the same each week. if us as fans can guess how we are going to play, then surely the opposition can too. i understand the lack of playing staff at the club, which is why we need to coaching staff to step it up.

 

to achieve my expectation, i dont think there are many obstacles as i do not believe my expectations are high. im not asking us to win the league, im not even asking us to win a cup. im asking that we dont just roll over. against a poor united team, they were never troubled, against a newcastle team missing 3 of 4 midfielders we didnt trouble. when we get the ball in their half we can all see the next pass. its going out wide, we are pushing to the side of their box and crossing it in.

 

(this has turned into a great thread by the way)

 

Last season we had Pienaar, Arteta, Yakubu, Anichebe (injured) and Beckford as first team options. We had some players out on loan too, and some of those are now gone, or on loan again this year, such as Yobo, Vaughan, Aggard, Silva, Baxter, Wallace, Turner, Duffy, and maybe a few lesser players, so our squad has had quite a face lift.

 

Even though many of those didn't figure too heavily, there is no doubt that losing 2 of the best midfielders in the Premiership will have taken it's toll, and losing Beckford and Yakubu leaves us with one out of form senior striker, in Saha. Vellios is an unknown regarding fans, and one that Moyes certainly knows more about than we do, and let's face it, he's a 2nd team player until proven otherwise, as is Gueye, and Straq. The only other proven striker we have is Mcfadden, and he's hardly likely to play 90 mins every week, even if there must be a reason why he was signed. It could well be that Saha will leave in January, so we got in while we could to make numbers up.

 

Some welcome additions in Barkley and Drenthe, but both are unproven, and both trying to find their feet. Hardly a great swap for Pienaar and Arteta if we are honest, even if potential means the future might be brighter. We would have been better having all four though, as I'm sure we will all agree.

 

Moyes has always tried to bolster our squad as best he can, but when you have no money, sometimes you have to sell one great player, and try to buy 2 decent players in the hope they will become good. Moyes is a master art this. Bilyaletdinov being the only let down, but if you look at Bily's form in Russia, he looked a world beater.

 

So we can't really expect to go out all guns blazing.

 

Moyes needs time to test things out, and see what works again, and I'm sure he already has his eye on the January window, be it loans or cheap deals. It's really not his fault we have no money.

 

Perish the thought had another manager been hired who did not have Moyes' talents. Where would we have gotten players from, and what would our destiny have been?

 

As long as we don't get relegated, as fans, we still get to watch the Premiership while our problems are addressed. If fans want more, then I suggest they take a reality check, and look more closely at our situation and be a bit more patient.

 

Moyes sees what we don't.

 

The players we crave game time for we have no knowledge of, and base our opinions on seeing small cameo appearances where things have worked out well. We don't see the lads like Moyes does.

 

Obstacle wise, there are many.

 

We must firstly give credit to other teams strengths. Many teams are not in our situation, and many are much worse, but every team in the Premiership is trying to survive just like us. Some of these teams are strong, such as Villa, Fulham, Newcastle etc, and some are enjoying heavy investment, such as Sunderland.

 

How is Moyes to compete in the market with these guys? Each time he finds a player he wants, there is a queue of other clubs wanting them too, and players look at our situation, and it must look fairly bleak. Why would they want to come, and why would they want to stay?

 

When we do get a few faces in, like Drenthe, some of our fans are still quick to criticise. We will brag about the potential of Barkley, but ignore the potential of Drenthe. Give the lad a chance for crying out loud.

 

We have a small squad.

 

Injuries and suspensions are hard to take, but they will come. 'Any' spare bodies are a blessing.

 

We all think we can pick a better team than Moyes, yet our jobs, or Premiership status, or Sponsorship deals are not on the line each time we discuss it. When Moyes picks a squad, there are 'real' stakes at play, and he also has the future of the club in his hands at every decision, unlike us, who normally have our dicks in our hands.

 

His job right now will be to keep us in the Prem, while Kenwright tries to find investment.

 

Our expectations, and his job, are miles apart right now.

 

Give the guy a break. He is a terrific manager, and we owe him.

[J.P]

Our finances are the biggest hinderance to the club, not Moyes, ffs.

 

Money is now the biggest, most important factor, in this so-called sport of ours; FACT. There's a seemingly decent City fan who's reguarly here, so I'll try and elicit a response from him, whilst engaging other posters.

 

Do you not think there was a time not so long ago that the majority of City fans thought the Champions league was a closed shop to them? Do you honestly think that 7 or 8 years ago City fans thought they'd be [arguablly] favourites for the league in the 11/12 season? So what's made the difference? Money of course, it's as clear as the fuckin' nose on your face: MONEY BREEDS GOOD FOOTBALL TEAMS. selling your best players and giving the money to financial institutions does not.

 

I hate to old quote wobbly head 'Arry. But there was never a truer word spoken when he was asked about the secret of successful management:

 

"It's all about getting good players in"

[StevO]

avin, i dont think you have read my post too well if that was a response to it.

you talk a lot about the other teams getting stronger and the financial difficulties.

and expectations being far from moyes job.

 

i dont think i have any points which are hindered by this.

 

ok a few players have left, but after pienaar left we still kept playing well, even when arteta was injured and out of form we played well. saha played when fit and beckford was a sub a lot, we still played well and we still looked like we were a tough side when we had lots of injuries.

the mindset and attitude of the players and the manager seem to have dropped, and that is the problem. ok players and finance have dropped, but its moyes job as manager to keep the attitude and mindset as high and positive as possible. you do not need money for a good attitude.

 

i can accept that we have lost quality players and i can accept we are stretched, i cant accept a negative attitude.

you yourself have compained about the negativity of the fans, well i, as a fan, am complaining about the negetivity of the manager and his squad.

[Avinalaff]

avin, i dont think you have read my post too well if that was a response to it.

you talk a lot about the other teams getting stronger and the financial difficulties.

and expectations being far from moyes job.

 

i dont think i have any points which are hindered by this.

 

ok a few players have left, but after pienaar left we still kept playing well, even when arteta was injured and out of form we played well. saha played when fit and beckford was a sub a lot, we still played well and we still looked like we were a tough side when we had lots of injuries.

the mindset and attitude of the players and the manager seem to have dropped, and that is the problem. ok players and finance have dropped, but its moyes job as manager to keep the attitude and mindset as high and positive as possible. you do not need money for a good attitude.

 

i can accept that we have lost quality players and i can accept we are stretched, i cant accept a negative attitude.

you yourself have compained about the negativity of the fans, well i, as a fan, am complaining about the negetivity of the manager and his squad.

 

I'm getting a bit confused between the 2 Moyes threads bud, and losing momentum of thought.

 

Builders at door, hence having to be quick. Will check back in a bit.

[Bailey]

 

 

Whats your point ?

 

None of those players are playing well and all of them have been dropped so what else is he meant to do?

 

What I am saying is that its plain as day that the players mentioned arent good enough when they are playing out of position, yet it continually happens. Not just to cover for injuries, but time and time again over the past few years. He doesnt have an excuse for it and it greatly hinders how well the team as a whole can play.

 

Reg - problem is our shit starts have been against the majority of lesser teams because they play us and park the bus. We can't unlock those teams! then we play the big boys and play well, normally because they play free-flowing football which allows us to intercept and counter. Our problem this year? We've played the teams we usually get points at! And got fuck all from them so from now on we play the lesser teams, who are only goin to do as we expect. And as I've mentioned earlier, we don't have the creativity or the ability to beat them.

 

So we go from weak starts against lesser opposition and have stronger finishes against the bigger teams but this year the fixture set-up is reversed and we've already dropped the points we should have gained to make-up our points tally against the lesser teams.

 

This. Im genuinly worried about these next few games. I was starting to get some confidence back after parts of the Fulham & Utd game, but its all been drained away after this weekend.

 

 

No one's saying Moyes should have us at the top of the league competing with the moneybags of the league now, so I don't know why you're even bringing it up. And no one is saying it's not hard on Moyes that we've lost some players.

 

What the problem many fans have with Moyes is his decision making, his tactics, his use of what players he does have, his unwillingness to change. Money doesn't come into that.

 

When we finished fourth did we really have, on paper, a squad capable of finishing fourth? Did we like shite! We got there on hard work, on getting our tactics spot on etc etc. We may not be able to compete off the field with a lot of the sides in the Premier League but there is no excuse not to compete on the field. Yes, other teams may have better players than us but all I'm asking for the management to send the players out there with a belief that they can win against any one. But it just seems rightnow that Moyes has lost belief in his players, maybe in himself.

 

I love Moyes for everything he's given us, I really do, but that's the past and the present is that we're right in the shit. Him and his players are collectively responsible for our poor position in the league, and our mostly dire football, and they are collectively responsible for fixing that.

 

This completely and much better worded than my attempts!

 

Good times and bad times? Exactly. This is a bad time, so let us moan!

 

Im always always pro-Moyes. So the time i think he has to take responsibility, and moan about his obvious down-falls, im not allowed to because back in the day he won 3 manager of the year awards. Fuck me.

 

I wanted Barton, cracking player. Didn't want Mcfuck wit because he's shit. And? What's your point now?

 

Because we've lost these players your accepting that playing shit and negatively is is ok? Well its not. We've lost those players. Get on with it. As a manager you can only work with what you've got and frankly our first team is better than 12/13 teams in the league, so he's got to make them play like that. Not go to Newcastle and play for a draw. Goin to the top teams and accepting defeat before the games started!

 

The weaker argument sucks, its not about the personnel, rather the way they're playing. Moyes isn't entirely to blame but he's the manager and tactically, he's responsible.

 

Another really well put response.

 

avin, i dont think you have read my post too well if that was a response to it.

you talk a lot about the other teams getting stronger and the financial difficulties.

and expectations being far from moyes job.

 

i dont think i have any points which are hindered by this.

 

ok a few players have left, but after pienaar left we still kept playing well, even when arteta was injured and out of form we played well. saha played when fit and beckford was a sub a lot, we still played well and we still looked like we were a tough side when we had lots of injuries.

the mindset and attitude of the players and the manager seem to have dropped, and that is the problem. ok players and finance have dropped, but its moyes job as manager to keep the attitude and mindset as high and positive as possible. you do not need money for a good attitude.

 

i can accept that we have lost quality players and i can accept we are stretched, i cant accept a negative attitude.

you yourself have compained about the negativity of the fans, well i, as a fan, am complaining about the negetivity of the manager and his squad.

 

That last bit is spot on. I dont think too many people here would be having a pop at the players & Moyes if we could see that they were giving it their all and ultimately werent quite good enough to win/draw. However, when all concerned have pretty much given up hope before kick off then its a real kick in the nutsack.

[nogs]

I can't understand why people seem to be trying to argue that the strength of our squad is no excuse for our current form - compared to the squad we had when we last qualified for Europe and got to the cup final, this bunch is much, much weaker, and it is showing in both our form and our morale. Yes our squad has been 'refreshed' - we've lost some very good players and replaced them with a handful of unknown kids. Right now we look a team devoid of morale, ideas and ability.

 

Going back to Moyes - at some point we have to face facts. Yes he has rightly won praise for what is seen to be over-achieving within the financial constraints he faces at the club, but he is NEVER going to be the world class manager people all too hopefully talk him us as. Evidence? His inability to adapt tactically, his ingrained negativity, and the fact that he cannot for the life of him get a team ready and up to scratch for the start of a league season. How many times now have we gone into November sat in the bottom six? How many times have we only taken an average of a point a game from our first ten games of the season? If we're talking about our club motto, that is just not good enough, and right now I can't ever see Moyes getting over that deficiency while he's Everton manager.

Edited November 8, 2011 by nogs

[Lowensda]

Would you (those who say its down to the weakening of our team (Arteta, Pienaar etc)) say Norwich or Swansea have a better squad than us? If not, then how can you argue that its due to our squad rather than the way that they play? They play some good football, they attack teams and want to score. It doesn't matter if you have a 200 year history or have sepent billions, they want to attack your team, score more goals and consequently win. The squad is there. Capable of beating the majority of squads in the league. Playing lethargic, predictable, weak football is not acceptable. That is why the argument shouldn't stand.

[Avinalaff]

Would you (those who say its down to the weakening of our team (Arteta, Pienaar etc)) say Norwich or Swansea have a better squad than us? If not, then how can you argue that its due to our squad rather than the way that they play? They play some good football, they attack teams and want to score. It doesn't matter if you have a 200 year history or have sepent billions, they want to attack your team, score more goals and consequently win. The squad is there. Capable of beating the majority of squads in the league. Playing lethargic, predictable, weak football is not acceptable. That is why the argument shouldn't stand.

 

Ten, we've been playing the best teams in the country for the last 6 or 7 weeks. It's hardly surprising we've struggled. We'd struggle even with a full strength squad, but we are much weaker now.

 

Cut 2 legs off a greyhound and see if he still competes.

 

Norwich and Swansea are irrelevant. The only relevance is Everton fc, and who we have played so far.

[Lowensda]

 

Ten, we've been playing the best teams in the country for the last 6 or 7 weeks. It's hardly surprising we've struggled. We'd struggle even with a full strength squad, but we are much weaker now.

 

Cut 2 legs off a greyhound and see if he still competes.

 

Norwich and Swansea are irrelevant. The only relevance is Everton fc, and who we have played so far.

 

They are relevant though. Very relevant in fact. If a team like Swansea (newly promoted, little money spent) can play with the attitude that their players are showing, that's how we should be playing with approaching and during a game, do you not think its weird that they're not?? Or the reasons why they're not?

 

If you're using that anology, Swansea are a greyhound with 3 legs missing, but they're still making a bloody good go at trying to win....even if it is flapping around on the floor.

[StevO]

a few so called smaller teams have given the best teams in the league more threat than we have, ok they have still lost. but they went down fighting, they didnt turn up with a white flag.

[FanchesterCity]

I largely agree with the 'went down fighting' spirit... it's great to see, but...

 

It's a marathon and not a sprint, and you could argue that going hell for leather in the first half of the season (as MANY newly promoted teams do) will kill them in the end.

 

They're on an adrenalin surge at the moment, but once they start a losing streak, and get knackered by Feb, it'll be a different story.

 

Just a theory of course, not one I necessarily ascribe to

[Mogsy]

 

 

They are relevant though. Very relevant in fact. If a team like Swansea (newly promoted, little money spent) can play with the attitude that their players are showing, that's how we should be playing with approaching and during a game, do you not think its weird that they're not?? Or the reasons why they're not?

 

If you're using that anology, Swansea are a greyhound with 3 legs missing, but they're still making a bloody good go at trying to win....even if it is flapping around on the floor.

 

Plus Swansea might not have much money to spend, but they've still got more than us

[Bill]

 

Ten, we've been playing the best teams in the country for the last 6 or 7 weeks. It's hardly surprising we've struggled.

Norwich and Swansea are irrelevant. The only relevance is Everton fc, and who we have played so far.

 

We lost to QPR and we lost to Blackburn which i think is still the only game they have won, if we had won those we would be in the top eight with a game in hand, we know we are not going to get much from the top 5 but we should be winning most of the other games.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Bill

[Matt]

 

We lost to QPR and we lost to Blackburn which i think is still the only game they have won, if we had won those we would be in the top eight with a game in hand, we know we are not going to get much from the top 5 but we should be winning most of the other games.

We beat Blackburn 1-0

[Hafnia]

We beat Blackburn 1-0

 

True, but if that was a boxing match the ref would have stopped it before the 80th minute - we were shocking.

 

The other wins 3-1 versus Wigan was flattering - we toiled and looked flat and without any ideas till drenthe and vellios did the work.

 

The other 3-1 versus Fulham, again massive fortune, the game should have been dead and buried when Zamora skied an open goal.

 

 

In short, where we have won we have done so unconvincingly - we have shown worrying form and it does not show any signs of getting better. Seriously seriously worried. Whilst I don't think we will get relegated I can see about 14th place being the finish.

[FanchesterCity]

When has football ever really been so predictable that you'll beat the teas below you and lose to the ones above?

 

It's always been the way that sometimes teams 'switch off' against lower teams and end up losing, or lesser teams up their game with little to lose - or a combination of both etc.

 

Even the teams at the very top seem to have a habit of losing to lower teams rather than their rivals (or at least that's the common perception of 'where they went wrong' at the end of the season).

 

City's two trickiest games (so far) have been Fulham and QPR, certainly not teams you're immediate identify as the troublesome ones.

 

It's just often the way - simple as that.

 

And as for winning unconvincingly - lots of top teams do that. When you're near the bottom it's perceived as 'unconvincing win', but when you're near the top it's 'win even when not playing well' - same deal, just with a different spin on it.

 

A win is a win, however 'unconvincing' it might seem. After all, how many times do you lose to 'unconvincing' teams? a lot I'd say.