Pienaar

[Romey 1878]

I'm more saying Moyes has got it wrong tbh. He shouldn't be happy to lose him for nothing when we won't have anything to replace him with.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.clubcall.com/everton/battle-on-for-midfielder-7-1110936.html

[MikeO]

He shouldn't be happy to lose him for nothing...

You think he is?

 

Whatever he may (or may not) have said to the Daily Star (or anyone else) I bet in private he's as pissed off as the rest of us.

[Hafnia]

If offering Arteta the money he is on has caused this then we are potentially right to run it down. It's not a simple case of giving him the same as Arteta, it's a case of justifying refusing the future wage demands of players in the same bracket (Jags, and Baines for example)

 

Arteta whichever way you look at it is an exception to most other players within our squad. Whilst it can be argued he is not at his best currently, he is evidently the best player we have. Putting Pienaar on the same money or pretty near is going to have knock on effects with future negotitions as outlined above.

 

My take on it is that we are in desperate need for a goalscorer, this is a priority above keeping Pienaar for me. I would love him to stay but it is a case of take it or leave it with his contract offer. I have often said just give him the same as Arteta, my thoughts have changed. It is likely that we have been trying to source a suitable replacement for less.

 

Just as a rough figure, to tie him up for 5 years on a similar wage to Arteta would cost £18-£20m. For the same deal, we could potentially buy Ibrhahim Affellay (example) for £7m and place him on a weekly wage of approx £40k. With him being 4 years younger than Pienaar we would benefit from being able to make money in a sell on. Not the case with Pienaar.

[Bill]

 

Just as a rough figure, to tie him up for 5 years on a similar wage to Arteta would cost £18-£20m. For the same deal, we could potentially buy Ibrhahim Affellay (example) for £7m and place him on a weekly wage of approx £40k. With him being 4 years younger than Pienaar we would benefit from being able to make money in a sell on. Not the case with Pienaar.

 

 

Nah, I still think my explanation is better, to pay him an extra 10 grand will cost us an extra £2.5 million over 5 years. To replace him would cost 10 million, to bring another player in for a fee and a £40.000 grand wage you mentioned over 5 years, would cost us even more than that.

 

To give him a rise is the cheapest option and we still have a top class player for another 5 years.

[Matt]

 

 

Nah, I still think my explanation is better, to pay him an extra 10 grand will cost us an extra £2.5 million over 5 years. To replace him would cost 10 million, to bring another player in for a fee and a £40.000 grand wage you mentioned over 5 years, would cost us even more than that.

 

To give him a rise is the cheapest option and we still have a top class player for another 5 years.

 

Bingo.

[Hafnia]

Nah, I still think my explanation is better, to pay him an extra 10 grand will cost us an extra £2.5 million over 5 years. To replace him would cost 10 million, to bring another player in for a fee and a £40.000 grand wage you mentioned over 5 years, would cost us even more than that.

 

To give him a rise is the cheapest option and we still have a top class player for another 5 years.

 

£10k above what has already been offered is £70k

Again the deal breaker is the fact that he is on his last contract. A potential solution would be to sign him on what he wants, then actively sell him for a reasonable fee (£10m) put that money to work on a replacement.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if that Is what saf has done with Rooney.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Hafnia2

[MikeO]

Bingo.

Except for the possibility that he's already been offered "the extra ten grand" and still not signed.

 

These theories are based purely on guesswork and speculation.

 

Davey knows what he's worth to the club, knows the consequences of stretching/breaking/chucking the wage structure out the window, knows Pienaar's motivation/ambition/possible avarice/loyalty or lack of compared to Arteta, Cahill, Jagielka etc and has made a judgement of what a fair and affordable offer is.

 

He has the info. We don't.

[Matt]

Except for the possibility that he's already been offered "the extra ten grand" and still not signed.

 

These theories are based purely on guesswork and speculation.

 

Davey knows what he's worth to the club, knows the consequences of stretching/breaking/chucking the wage structure out the window, knows Pienaar's motivation/ambition/possible avarice/loyalty or lack of compared to Arteta, Cahill, Jagielka etc and has made a judgement of what a fair and affordable offer is.

 

He has the info. We don't.

 

True. But the rumours are he wants parity with Arteta, which he has earned it my opinion. From what DM has said, hes been given a damn good contract which could be interpreted either way but im leaning more to the "hes not been offered parity" idea. Just a feeling.

 

what i do know is that him and Baines have been our biggest threat in over the last season if not longer and the way Arteta is playing now we need that outlet.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Matt

[Bill]

Peeps can put their own figures into the debate any way they like, but the best option is to keep what you have. A similar player will cost £10 million at least, then you have 5 years wages on top possibly costing us another £10 million.

 

I say again give the man the money and we have him for another 5 years ... simples.

[MikeO]

I say again give the man the money and we have him for another 5 years ... simples.

So if we've already offered him the "guesstimate" of £60,000 and parity with Arteta you'd give him another £10,000 on top of that?

[Bill]

Yeah Mike i would, the alternative would cost us £20 million.

 

Unless he thinks Gueye is going to be as good.

[MikeO]

Yeah Mike i would, the alternative would cost us £20 million.

How much would the rest of the squad suddenly demanding a pay rise cost us though once the precedent is set?

 

Say fifteen of them getting "lesser" increases averaging £7,500.

 

Comes to just short of £30m over the five years.

 

It'd open a can of worms for me....we shouldn't be dictated to or held to ransom by any one player.

[Hafnia]

Yeah Mike i would, the alternative would cost us £20 million.

 

Unless he thinks Gueye is going to be as good.

 

Pienaar is going to cost us 18 million over 5 years with no resale given his age. An alternative being a 24 year old at 7 mill with 40k a week gives us better investment opportunities. I say lets not be held to ransom, 60k a week is more than enough for him. He's got two maybe three seasons of top quality football left. I haven't seen enough to suggest he is equal with arteta

[rubecula]

I would be happy with a straight swap for Lionel Messi

[Bill]

Most of the good players are already signed on 5 year contracts so the problem wouldnt come around for 4 years, then we will have the money to up the payments for other players, a new TV deal with extra money has come into force this year.

Whatever you say Pienaar is going to cost us, a new player will cost us more with a transfer fee and his wages.

Hey but thats only my opinion, and your all entitled to yours.

[buddy]

Out of interest - how does Pienaar know what Arteta is on to demand parity with Arteta? Surely Arteta's contract is confidential? I can't imagine he would go around telling team mates what salary he is on...

 

I think Pienaar is OK with the money offered but wants to play Champions League. Simple, if we finish top 4 he will sign, otherwise he will go.

 

So it's simple really. Stop dropping points to rubbish teams like Wolves and Blackburn and we will keep Pienaar...

[jcrawfor]

How about we sign him to a 2 year contract now and sell him in the summer with 18 months left on contract. That would allow us to have him the rest of the season and then sell him in the summer so we're not left without either player or cash.

Edited October 26, 2010 by bluenoseyankee

[buddy]

How about we sign him to a 2 year contract now and sell him in the summer with 18 months left on contract. That would allow us to have him the rest of the season and then sell him in the summer so we're not left without either player or cash.

 

Because he wouldn't sign a 2 year contract. If he leaves on a free then more than likely he will get a big signing on fee wherever he goes.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Pienaar is going to cost us 18 million over 5 years with no resale given his age. An alternative being a 24 year old at 7 mill with 40k a week gives us better investment opportunities. I say lets not be held to ransom, 60k a week is more than enough for him. He's got two maybe three seasons of top quality football left. I haven't seen enough to suggest he is equal with arteta

 

 

How wonderfully simplistic, why dont we go the whole hog and buy a 12 year old for £100k and pay him £20 a week surely that saves even more money?

 

Just signing a random 24 year old for less money doesnt mean he is going to fill the void. A player with Piennars quality who is prepared to put in the graft that he does is a very rare commodity

 

You sound like you are buying a new car, lets just get a newer model!

[Hafnia]

How wonderfully simplistic, why dont we go the whole hog and buy a 12 year old for £100k and pay him £20 a week surely that saves even more money?

 

Just signing a random 24 year old for less money doesnt mean he is going to fill the void. A player with Piennars quality who is prepared to put in the graft that he does is a very rare commodity

 

You sound like you are buying a new car, lets just get a newer model!

 

Maybe if you read the previous posts you would see the relevance. So that would put pay to your "random 24 year old" comment - and pay a 12 year old £20 a week - WTF?! For your wonderfully simplistic benefit - post pasted below

 

"If offering Arteta the money he is on has caused this then we are potentially right to run it down. It's not a simple case of giving him the same as Arteta, it's a case of justifying refusing the future wage demands of players in the same bracket (Jags, and Baines for example)

 

Arteta whichever way you look at it is an exception to most other players within our squad. Whilst it can be argued he is not at his best currently, he is evidently the best player we have. Putting Pienaar on the same money or pretty near is going to have knock on effects with future negotitions as outlined above.

 

My take on it is that we are in desperate need for a goalscorer, this is a priority above keeping Pienaar for me. I would love him to stay but it is a case of take it or leave it with his contract offer. I have often said just give him the same as Arteta, my thoughts have changed. It is likely that we have been trying to source a suitable replacement for less.

 

Just as a rough figure, to tie him up for 5 years on a similar wage to Arteta would cost £18-£20m. For the same deal, we could potentially buy Ibrhahim Affellay (example) for £7m and place him on a weekly wage of approx £40k. With him being 4 years younger than Pienaar we would benefit from being able to make money in a sell on. Not the case with Pienaar. "

Edited October 26, 2010 by Hafnia2

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Maybe if you read the previous posts you would see the relevance. So that would put pay to your "random 24 year old" comment - and pay a 12 year old £20 a week - WTF?! For your wonderfully simplistic benefit - post pasted below

 

"If offering Arteta the money he is on has caused this then we are potentially right to run it down. It's not a simple case of giving him the same as Arteta, it's a case of justifying refusing the future wage demands of players in the same bracket (Jags, and Baines for example)

 

Arteta whichever way you look at it is an exception to most other players within our squad. Whilst it can be argued he is not at his best currently, he is evidently the best player we have. Putting Pienaar on the same money or pretty near is going to have knock on effects with future negotitions as outlined above.

 

My take on it is that we are in desperate need for a goalscorer, this is a priority above keeping Pienaar for me. I would love him to stay but it is a case of take it or leave it with his contract offer. I have often said just give him the same as Arteta, my thoughts have changed. It is likely that we have been trying to source a suitable replacement for less.

 

Just as a rough figure, to tie him up for 5 years on a similar wage to Arteta would cost £18-£20m. For the same deal, we could potentially buy Ibrhahim Affellay (example) for £7m and place him on a weekly wage of approx £40k. With him being 4 years younger than Pienaar we would benefit from being able to make money in a sell on. Not the case with Pienaar. "

 

 

The point still stands its not like just trading in your old car for a new car

 

It is a pipe dream to think we could get Afellay for that kind of money or wage considering the clubs that are after him and even if we could afford him I seriously doubt he would want to come anyway

[Hafnia]

The point still stands its not like just trading in your old car for a new car

 

It is a pipe dream to think we could get Afellay for that kind of money or wage considering the clubs that are after him and even if we could afford him I seriously doubt he would want to come anyway

 

It is exactly that - trading old car for new car, that is the business. Fergie has done this at Man United and Wenger at Arsenal. Beckham (28), Van Nistlerooy (29), Stam (28), Ince (28, Viera (28/29) Henry was old at 29 near 30. Combine the cost of all these players at their ages and compare what they achieved after their moves in terms of what they did before?

 

Pienaar is 29 in March. A five year contract will take him to 34 years of age - do you think he will offer the same industry in 3 years? I don't. The game is getting quicker, more physical, all the time.

 

Moyes thinks he is worth X amount a week, Pienaar wants more and Moyes has taken the right stance in my opinion.

 

Afellay is an example rather than a genuine option. There are lots of potential superstars out there that would be within our reach, what would Adam Johnson be worth now? - we should and maybe could have got him if we went for a fee earlier rather than wait for the others to join in the window where he went for undisclosed amount. The future of the club does not rest in Pienaars hands, and it is important to consider the total cost of the deal rather than "it's just an extra £10k" - which many fans are saying.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

It is exactly that - trading old car for new car, that is the business. Fergie has done this at Man United and Wenger at Arsenal. Beckham (28), Van Nistlerooy (29), Stam (28), Ince (28, Viera (28/29) Henry was old at 29 near 30. Combine the cost of all these players at their ages and compare what they achieved after their moves in terms of what they did before?

 

Pienaar is 29 in March. A five year contract will take him to 34 years of age - do you think he will offer the same industry in 3 years? I don't. The game is getting quicker, more physical, all the time.

 

Moyes thinks he is worth X amount a week, Pienaar wants more and Moyes has taken the right stance in my opinion.

 

Afellay is an example rather than a genuine option. There are lots of potential superstars out there that would be within our reach, what would Adam Johnson be worth now? - we should and maybe could have got him if we went for a fee earlier rather than wait for the others to join in the window where he went for undisclosed amount. The future of the club does not rest in Pienaars hands, and it is important to consider the total cost of the deal rather than "it's just an extra £10k" - which many fans are saying.

 

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

For a start we havent got the money or the pull that Man Utd or Arsenal have so we are not going to attract the same calibre of players as replacements

 

If you buy a new car you know it is going to work and you certainly cant say that with a new signing especially given that if we let Piennar go for nothing then we will have exactly that to replace him with,nothing

[Hafnia]

I think you are missing the point.

 

For a start we havent got the money or the pull that Man Utd or Arsenal have so we are not going to attract the same calibre of players as replacements

 

If you buy a new car you know it is going to work and you certainly cant say that with a new signing especially given that if we let Piennar go for nothing then we will have exactly that to replace him with,nothing

 

It's all down to personal opinion. My opinion is wanting to play for a club for the right reason (not money) is often the make or break as to whether a player will perform to the best of their abilities. When money is the deal breaker you often find that the level of commitment is not there. Saha is a prime example - great when he was closing his contract down, give a new contract - where has he gone? Look at the players at city, more money is not always rewarded with increased performance. Adebuyor? Give me the £3m version on £30k a week - not the overpaid mercenary who liberally discusses moving to Juve from Man City less than a year after a mega deal.

 

I believe Pienaar to be an honest pro, someone who has a work ethic. He is no doubt happy at the club, listening to Jags and Tim, the spirit at the club is a credit to Moyes. For Pienaar, that along with a very good contract offer from a club that relaunched his career is not enough. It appears to me that his motivation is not playing for Everton, but is money - when money is your prime motivation then it's time to say goodbye.

 

Arteta could have gone to Man City and been paid more money. He stayed on a very good contract, but it is clear money is not his main motivation. Pienaar wants the money, simple as that.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

It's all down to personal opinion. My opinion is wanting to play for a club for the right reason (not money) is often the make or break as to whether a player will perform to the best of their abilities. When money is the deal breaker you often find that the level of commitment is not there. Saha is a prime example - great when he was closing his contract down, give a new contract - where has he gone? Look at the players at city, more money is not always rewarded with increased performance. Adebuyor? Give me the £3m version on £30k a week - not the overpaid mercenary who liberally discusses moving to Juve from Man City less than a year after a mega deal.

 

I believe Pienaar to be an honest pro, someone who has a work ethic. He is no doubt happy at the club, listening to Jags and Tim, the spirit at the club is a credit to Moyes. For Pienaar, that along with a very good contract offer from a club that relaunched his career is not enough. It appears to me that his motivation is not playing for Everton, but is money - when money is your prime motivation then it's time to say goodbye.

 

Arteta could have gone to Man City and been paid more money. He stayed on a very good contract, but it is clear money is not his main motivation. Pienaar wants the money, simple as that.

 

 

What is?

 

 

Sorry you have lost me a bit there, are you saying its all down to opinion about wether or not replacing a player is as easy as buying a new car?

 

I agree with you about one thing if his sole motivation is money then yes it is time to say goodbye and good riddance. Lol and as for the Adebayur example, delete his name and insert Johnny H

[MikeO]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11671_6471407,00.html

[c1982]

Perfect replacement if we were to lose pienaar come Jan...

 

Park leaving Man.Utd?

[Louis]

This front cover sums up the situation:

 

[BrotherEstapol]

Perfect replacement if we were to lose pienaar come Jan...

 

Park leaving Man.Utd?

We'll have a nice selection of Man U "rejects" if he comes along!

Seems to be working out for us so far, so why not!