England

[Hafnia]

32 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Firstly I am not part of any far right movement and do not hold any far right beliefs. 
The flag of St George is what distinguishes us from the rest of the Union and should remain untouched in its current form, it holds so much for so many people. Do you think the Scots would be happy if their flag was put on their shirts with a pink and red cross or the Welsh dragon was violet, no they wouldn’t they would be up in arms, and I wouldn’t call the Scots or the Welsh part of the right.

 

Iceland putting ticks on hot cross buns? - don't get that either.   If you don't want hot cross buns because they are viewed as part of a Christian festival - buy tea cakes. You can buy Hot Cross buns on the weeks leading up to Easter for a reason. 
 

Our traditions are being challenged in a very underhand way. Equality means treating all the same way - not just thinking "hmmm.... can't offend them but we can take a chance with this lot.. and if people object they get called a right wing gammon" 

The far left could well be a creation of some right wing strategist to make people right wing.  Thats how crazy it is going. 
 

im neither, i find both extreme sides sickening tbh. Completely intolerant of an opinion that makes sense if it is supposedly aligned to the opposite side.

ironically both labour and conservative have spoken out against Nike messing with the St   Georges flag..... the scouse not English party aren't arsed - just don't mess with the montirex logo they say. 

 

[Romey 1878]

The flag has been changed on many different occasions in the past (nine apparently) on England shirts and there was no uproar.

The only thing the FA and Nike got wrong this time was to be too naive not to realise that in current times it would be jumped on and used to create a culture war. 

[Hafnia]

7 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

The flag has been changed on many different occasions in the past (nine apparently) on England shirts and there was no uproar.

The only thing the FA and Nike got wrong this time was to be too naive not to realise that in current times it would be jumped on and used to create a culture war. 

The reality is that people are starting to get pissed off with a two tier approach to things of importance. 
 

its that simple 

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Iceland putting ticks on hot cross buns? - don't get that either.   If you don't want hot cross buns because they are viewed as part of a Christian festival - buy tea cakes. 
 

Our traditions are being challenged in a very underhand way. Equality means treating all the same way - not just thinking "hmmm.... can't offend them but we can take a chance with this lot.. and if people object they get called a right wing gammon" 

 

 

It’s the woke culture taking over, saying that you can’t have traditions pride or beliefs in your country and its symbols anymore. Nothing to do with whether you are right wing or left wing, it’s more to do with whether you have allowed the woke culture to rule your life. 

[StatesideToffee14]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

It’s the woke culture taking over, saying that you can’t have traditions pride or beliefs in your country and its symbols anymore. Nothing to do with whether you are right wing or left wing, it’s more to do with whether you have allowed the woke culture to rule your life. 

And here I thought "woke" was just a catch-all term I had to hear people on the right here in the states use for stuff they didn't agree with. 

[Cornish Steve]

The commentator at the BBC website is being way too polite: England were dreadful. He writes that England are slated to play France in the Euros semifinals. Play like that, and making it that far might be wishful thinking. Why is Maguire still playing? Why was an 18-year-old nobody from United playing ahead of better players? Southgate sticks to the wrong favorites and is bowing to pressure to use players from the big six teams. If I was an England supporter, I'd be rather depressed right now.

[Cornish Steve]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

Firstly I am not part of any right movement and do not hold any right beliefs. 
The flag of St George is what distinguishes us from the rest of the Union and should remain untouched in its current form, it holds so much for so many people. Do you think the Scots would be happy if their flag was put on their shirts with a pink and red cross or the Welsh dragon was violet, no they wouldn’t they would be up in arms, and I wouldn’t call the Scots or the Welsh part of the right.

 

Honestly, I don't ever remember seeing a flag of St. George when I lived in Britain - never. Seeing it flying now is a modern thing, although I have no problem with it. As others have said, the Welsh and Scottish proudly fly their flags - and more and more flags of St. Piran fly in Cornwall.

What's the big whoop about designing a motif using different colours? I interpreted it as a statement that Britain is proudly multicultural, which is a positive thing.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

What's the big whoop about designing a motif using different colours? I interpreted it as a statement that Britain is proudly multicultural, which is a positive thing.

Because it isn’t British it’s English . So as we all know you are a person who likes to ridicule anything that is English, so much so that now it’s not acceptable for the English to be proud of their own flag, but acceptable that the Scottish and Welsh are. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, StatesideToffee14 said:

And here I thought "woke" was just a catch-all term I had to hear people on the right here in the states use for stuff they didn't agree with. 

Here woke is related to being alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice. 
Now unfortunately the woke in some people is being used by liberals out of context, they now think it’s wrong for anyone to take pride in their cultural history, and if by doing so you are described as right and a racist. 

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

The commentator at the BBC website is being way too polite: England were dreadful. He writes that England are slated to play France in the Euros semifinals. Play like that, and making it that far might be wishful thinking. Why is Maguire still playing? Why was an 18-year-old nobody from United playing ahead of better players? Southgate sticks to the wrong favorites and is bowing to pressure to use players from the big six teams. If I was an England supporter, I'd be rather depressed right now.

Mainoo has earned that call up by playing very well for United. He might be a nobody to you but he’s anything but to people that watch football.

It was a friendly so it was an ideal game to have a look at him on the international stage.

[Palfy]

25 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Mainoo has earned that call up by playing very well for United. He might be a nobody to you but he’s anything but to people that watch football.

It was a friendly so it was an ideal game to have a look at him on the international stage.

Don’t bite Rom, it’s just the usual bash anything English from Steve.  

[MikeO]

Nobody has addressd why it was fine for the union flag to be messed with in 2012 and everyone is chucking their toys out of the pram over this. In 2012 the whole kit was a "fake" flag while now it's a tiny bit of detail on the back of the neck. What's changed? For me it's as plain as day that it's the political landscape (not just in the UK), the right wing is far more visible than it's been in my lifetime.

The cross of St George has never been the badge of English football, the three lions is. and the flags in the crowd and on the flagpoles at Wembley are red and white. In the unlikely event of us ever winning anything the red and white flag will be flown and people will paint their faces red and white, but people are losing their shit over a tiny bit of trim that's effectively invisible unless you search for it.

7 hours ago, StatesideToffee14 said:

And here I thought "woke" was just a catch-all term I had to hear people on the right here in the states use for stuff they didn't agree with. 

It's lazy and meaningless for me, "...originally a very positive concept… but now completely appropriated by the hard right, and used repeatedly as a general-purpose insult by people who don't really know what they mean.." sums it up nicely.

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

Here woke is related to being alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice. 
Now unfortunately the woke in some people is being used by liberals out of context, they now think it’s wrong for anyone to take pride in their cultural history, and if by doing so you are described as right and a racist. 

I'd counter that with the point that it's used out of context far more often by the right, to erroniously suggest that liberals are somehow unpatriotic.

Just my thoughts, not expecting everyone to agree.

But, to my original question, why is a far worse "destruction" of a national flag fine with everyone twelve years ago, but today it's not?

[Palfy]

10 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Nobody has addressd why it was fine for the union flag to be messed with in 2012 and everyone is chucking their toys out of the pram over this. In 2012 the whole kit was a "fake" flag while now it's a tiny bit of detail on the back of the neck. What's changed? For me it's as plain as day that it's the political landscape (not just in the UK), the right wing is far more visible than it's been in my lifetime.

The cross of St George has never been the badge of English football, the three lions is. and the flags in the crowd and on the flagpoles at Wembley are red and white. In the unlikely event of us ever winning anything the red and white flag will be flown and people will paint their faces red and white, but people are losing their shit over a tiny bit of trim that's effectively invisible unless you search for it.

It's lazy and meaningless for me, "...originally a very positive concept… but now completely appropriated by the hard right, and used repeatedly as a general-purpose insult by people who don't really know what they mean.." sums it up nicely.

I'd counter that with the point that it's used out of context far more often by the right, to erroniously suggest that liberals are somehow unpatriotic.

Just my thoughts, not expecting everyone to agree.

But, to my original question, why is a far worse "destruction" of a national flag fine with everyone twelve years ago, but today it's not?

If I was on here 12 years ago and it came up for debate I would have been against the national flag being changed from it’s original colour scheme and design. 
This now is about English who care about the flag of St George and what it means to a majority of English people, there was a vote a few years ago were 75% of the voter’s said that the St George cross was important to them. There are some things in people’s culture that shouldn’t be messed with no matter where you are from, and the flags of a nation are one of them. 
So why does my belief make me right wing?

Or was that just a woke ideology, agenda, liberal view against someone who dares express an opinion and belief that doesn’t fit with your beliefs. 

[MikeO]

3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If I was on here 12 years ago and it came up for debate I would have been against the national flag being changed from it’s original colour scheme and design. 
This now is about English who care about the flag of St George and what it means to a majority of English people, there was a vote a few years ago were 75% of the voter’s said that the St George cross was important to them. There are some things in people’s culture that shouldn’t be messed with no matter where you are from, and the flags of a nation are one of them. 
So why does my belief make me right wing?

Or was that just a woke ideology, agenda, liberal view against someone who dares express an opinion and belief that doesn’t fit with your beliefs. 

Adding two and two and getting five mate.

I have no problem at all with your opinions at all and I didn't express any, so why the passive agressive response?

I know you're not right wing and I know I'm as patriotic as the next man, I just don't go along with the absurd, meaningless and vacuous tabloid fuelled "woke" and/or "anti woke" nonsense. It's an invention, it means absolutely nothing; just used by politicians to further their self-interest and sadly people buy into it.

"If I was on here 12 years ago and it came up for debate I would have been against the national flag being changed from it’s original colour scheme and design."

There's the answer. In 2012 it didn't come up for debate, and it didn't come up for debate because nobody was searching for something to get offended by, it's all about the rise of the nasty side of nationalism and the far right (people might not like that description but "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.")

 

 

[Palfy]

47 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Adding two and two and getting five mate.

I have no problem at all with your opinions at all and I didn't express any, so why the passive agressive response?

I know you're not right wing and I know I'm as patriotic as the next man, I just don't go along with the absurd, meaningless and vacuous tabloid fuelled "woke" and/or "anti woke" nonsense. It's an invention, it means absolutely nothing; just used by politicians to further their self-interest and sadly people buy into it.

"If I was on here 12 years ago and it came up for debate I would have been against the national flag being changed from it’s original colour scheme and design."

There's the answer. In 2012 it didn't come up for debate, and it didn't come up for debate because nobody was searching for something to get offended by, it's all about the rise of the nasty side of nationalism and the far right (people might not like that description but "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.")

 

 

You said fuelled by the right so if I’m fuelling it I can’t possibly be left or centre of the left, in your few I must be right wing, because my concern for the English emblem that’s been worn since 1348, and has now been made a mockery of, by people who have know emotional connection to England and what it’s like to be patriotic to the English culture and values. 
We welcome people from far and wide to our country we want them to bring their culture and values and share them with us, but what we don’t do is mess about with what is precious to them, by making changes to their heritage and culture against their will, and for what according to Nike it was for the fun element. 
The FA are a disgrace they sold the English flag down the river to the highest bidder. 
Who watched the BBC politics show on Friday morning where they televised two 30 minute segments of the Nicky Campbell radio talk in show, it was all about this topic and by far the response was against what had been done to the St George flag, even Scottish people phoned in to say it was wrong and it wouldn’t be accepted in Scotland if this had happened to the Scottish flag .

On the other side I only remember in that hour 3 people phone in who were in a favour. One was an Asian fella from Birmingham who associated the English and British with the NF Party of the eighties when there was race riots Birmingham when he was growing up. the other was a woman who phoned up to say she didn’t care because she didn’t like football, so totally missed the point of the whole debate, and the other was a guy who said he bought his first ever English to show he backed the new design, when he was asked if he thought £128 was a bit expensive, he replied no I’m making up for all the shirts I haven’t bought in the past fair point. 
 It’s people from all walks of life that aren’t happy about this, and not just people from the right wing, there’s people from all the political persuasions that are shocked and outraged at what has happened, it’s across the board Mike and just a segment of right wing politicians and right wing media. 

[Hafnia]

11 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Honestly, I don't ever remember seeing a flag of St. George when I lived in Britain - never. Seeing it flying now is a modern thing, although I have no problem with it. As others have said, the Welsh and Scottish proudly fly their flags - and more and more flags of St. Piran fly in Cornwall.

What's the big whoop about designing a motif using different colours? I interpreted it as a statement that Britain is proudly multicultural, which is a positive thing.

Maybe it's a minority/inferiority/militant thing.  

Maybe years ago people in England didn't feel the need to show that they are English and proud because it was there.... when people feel that their cultures and traditions are being challenged then they will show their colours so to speak. 
 

2012 olympics, Stella mccartneys designs didn't create a kick off no.... pretty much fir reasons stated above I'm guessing. 
 

in the past few years it feels as though our traditions are being challenged and changed.  The M&S Christmas, Iceland with Hot cross buns changes.  Respected statues being climbed on with other flags put on them.  People are starting to say enough is enough. 
 

I'm not right wing at all but it seems some of my views nowadays are being labelled right wing by those who proudly claim to be left.   It's a game - I subscribe to the political party of common sense, humanity and decency.  I don't know if such exists. 

[MikeO]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

You said fuelled by the right so if I’m fuelling it I can’t possibly be left or centre of the left, in your few I must be right wing, because my concern for the English emblem that’s been worn since 1348, and has now been made a mockery of, by people who have know emotional connection to England and what it’s like to be patriotic to the English culture and values.

No point in carrying on with this, my point is purely that the right is influencing the political climate in an extremely negative (in my opinion) way, plainly a lot of people are happy about it. Fortunately the majority are not.

I know full well, as I've said, that you're not right wing, and just because you agree with one of their opinions it doesn't make you so. 

We'll just have to disagree about the flag, nobody is making a mockery of it at all, and equating it to English "culture and values" is ridiculous. Culture and values evolve do they not? They certainly should, or do you yearn for the good old days of fuedalism, of religious and racial bigotry? May sound daft you're the one dreaming of the halcyon days of 1348

Just as another thought, the logo of that well known liberal group, the popular conservatives (an oxymoron if ever I heard one). When are their tabloid buddies going to lose their shit over them disrespecting ("are you disrespecting me?") the flag and/or making a mockery of British culture and values? 

[Cornish Steve]

13 hours ago, Palfy said:

Because it isn’t British it’s English . So as we all know you are a person who likes to ridicule anything that is English, so much so that now it’s not acceptable for the English to be proud of their own flag, but acceptable that the Scottish and Welsh are. 

Did I write that it's not acceptable for the English to be proud of their own flag? No, I didn't. In fact, I compared it to the Scottish and the Welsh doing the came, just as you wrote. We're saying the same thing.

[Cornish Steve]

I'm upset that the English took the flag of St. Piran, changed the colours, and flew it all around Wembley stadium!

[Matt]

I'm amazed people are so angry about this and there's no noise about the £159 for a shirt...

[Cornish Steve]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

You said fuelled by the right so if I’m fuelling it I can’t possibly be left or centre of the left, in your few I must be right wing, because my concern for the English emblem that’s been worn since 1348, and has now been made a mockery of, by people who have know emotional connection to England and what it’s like to be patriotic to the English culture and values. 

So where exactly does the flag of St. George come from? The crusaders who rampaged Europe, killing rather indiscriminately. Have you ever read a history of the crusades, the divisions they caused in society, the heartless acts, and how they bankrupted the country? Hmm - maybe that's the link to today's extreme right!

[Cornish Steve]

5 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Maybe it's a minority/inferiority/militant thing.  

Maybe years ago people in England didn't feel the need to show that they are English and proud because it was there.... when people feel that their cultures and traditions are being challenged then they will show their colours so to speak. 
 

2012 olympics, Stella mccartneys designs didn't create a kick off no.... pretty much fir reasons stated above I'm guessing. 
 

in the past few years it feels as though our traditions are being challenged and changed.  The M&S Christmas, Iceland with Hot cross buns changes.  Respected statues being climbed on with other flags put on them.  People are starting to say enough is enough. 
 

I'm not right wing at all but it seems some of my views nowadays are being labelled right wing by those who proudly claim to be left.   It's a game - I subscribe to the political party of common sense, humanity and decency.  I don't know if such exists. 

You made a very sensible point. For the flag of St. George, I really don't see a problem. It's a flag, the English have rightly become proud of it in recent years,  many aspects of the country's traditions and heritage are admirable, and there's no harm in waving it or associating with it.

There is a similar but different situation in the US with the confederate flag. Decades ago, here in the American South, you'd see it flying all the time. People here associated with the South, there being a healthy rivalry with the North, and the confederate flag made that point. For most people, I would say, it was similar to the English or the Welsh or the Scottish flying their flag.

But, in recent years, there's much greater sensitivity to the extreme cruelty of slavery, and the confederate flag came about as a symbol of the South (and of slavery) as it fought a civil war. Over the last three decades, say, flying the confederate flag has became associated more and more with white supremacy, and there's some justification for this. To every African American, especially to the descendants of slaves, the confederate flag is now a graphic reminder of that awful age when their ancestors were treated as less than human.

Since the confederate flag is not a national flag, and not a state flag, but more an idea and association from the past, what is the harm in removing it from society? It was removed from the Georgia state flag, for example, and I see very few confederate flags flying today. Some people do fly it as an act of rebellion: As you wrote, "when people feel that their cultures and traditions are being challenged then they will show their colours so to speak." In this case, though, the flag carries too much baggage, and personally I would prefer that it be consigned to the history books. Why choose to deliberately upset millions of friends and neighbours in society just to make a point? (Yes, the extreme right claim that my opinion is "woke", but we should be aware of the feelings of others and not deliberately ride roughshod over them.)

Just to reiterate: I'm not at all implying the same is true of the flag of St. George. What matters is our attitude and the reasons we have for supporting a flag.

[Palfy]

51 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

So where exactly does the flag of St. George come from? The crusaders who rampaged Europe, killing rather indiscriminately. Have you ever read a history of the crusades, the divisions they caused in society, the heartless acts, and how they bankrupted the country? Hmm - maybe that's the link to today's extreme right!

The crusades started in 1095 and ended in 1291, the English didn’t start using the cross of St George until 1348.

The wars against the Muslims known as the Crusades were fought by Christian’s from all over Europe, so why are directing that as an English conflict fought under an English flag. 
If you are that concerned about senseless killing and acts of genocide, the starving and killing of innocent children and women, then maybe you should concern yourself to what your far right friends are doing today in Gaza, instead of what happened in a crusade of European Christian’s against Muslims in 1095-1291.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I'm amazed people are so angry about this and there's no noise about the £159 for a shirt...

It could be £9.99 and I wouldn’t buy it. 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Maybe it's a minority/inferiority/militant thing.  

Maybe years ago people in England didn't feel the need to show that they are English and proud because it was there.... when people feel that their cultures and traditions are being challenged then they will show their colours so to speak. 
 

2012 olympics, Stella mccartneys designs didn't create a kick off no.... pretty much fir reasons stated above I'm guessing. 
 

in the past few years it feels as though our traditions are being challenged and changed.  The M&S Christmas, Iceland with Hot cross buns changes.  Respected statues being climbed on with other flags put on them.  People are starting to say enough is enough. 
 

I'm not right wing at all but it seems some of my views nowadays are being labelled right wing by those who proudly claim to be left.   It's a game - I subscribe to the political party of common sense, humanity and decency.  I don't know if such exists. 

It does exist Haf you won’t find it in a political party, you won’t find it in any religion, you only find it with in yourself. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

The crusades started in 1095 and ended in 1291, the English didn’t start using the cross of St George until 1348.

Duke of Kent, "The St George's flag...was adopted by London and England in 1190, for their ships entering the Meditteranean, to benefit from the protection of the Genoese fleet. The English Monarch paid an annual tribute to the Doge of Genoa for this privilege."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BBkvDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT82&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[MikeO]

8 hours ago, Hafnia said:

It's a game - I subscribe to the political party of common sense, humanity and decency.  I don't know if such exists. 

Looking for such a party is a bit of a pointless exercise though isn't it? Everybody of every political persuasion truly believes that their views are sensible, humane and decent.

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

It does exist Haf you won’t find it in a political party, you won’t find it in any religion, you only find it with in yourself. 

It's certainly something to strive for, but sometimes it's not easy.

We're both old enough to have been around pre the 1968 race relations act, when it was acceptable to treat minorities as second class citizens. Had the word been in general use back then, there's no doubt that those who first suggested reform would've been described as "woke" (in the derogatory rather than enlightened sense). Fortunately they eventually won the argument; human evolution is great sometimes.

[Palfy]

34 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Duke of Kent, "The St George's flag...was adopted by London and England in 1190, for their ships entering the Meditteranean, to benefit from the protection of the Genoese fleet. The English Monarch paid an annual tribute to the Doge of Genoa for this privilege."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BBkvDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT82&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

King Edward III made St George the patron St of England in 1348, that was during the Plantagenet era and the we adopted it as an English flag.

It has always been the symbol of Christianity since the 3rd century and used by most of Europe up until the end of the 13th century. 
We may well have used as pass to gain access for trade, but it never became the official symbol of England until 1348. 

[Matt]

11 hours ago, Palfy said:

It could be £9.99 and I wouldn’t buy it. 

Fair enough. I don't get all the bullshit about a tribute to that 1 time England won. But charging nearly £500 for 3 teenagers shirts is abhorrent in these financially difficult times.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Fair enough. I don't get all the bullshit about a tribute to that 1 time England won. But charging nearly £500 for 3 teenagers shirts is abhorrent in these financially difficult times.

I agree that’s just the greed of Nike and the FA coming to the forefront, to be I think this shirt will fall flat due to costs and design, well I hope so anyway. 
Then maybe we can return to a good English company like Umbro to give us a product on price and with the understanding of our heritage.