marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 look at the squads above us and take out pienaar, jelavic, gibson and ad bily and saha and reassess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 look at the squads above us and take out pienaar, jelavic, gibson and ad bily and saha and reassess Thats isnt the reason for the complete turn around in our season though is it! If it was that easy Chelsea & Man City would be winning the league every year and we would need Moyes in the first place! We had options, we didnt play to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Thats isnt the reason for the complete turn around in our season though is it! If it was that easy Chelsea & Man City would be winning the league every year and we would need Moyes in the first place! We had options, we didnt play to them. We had a sulking striker, a lazy 'winger' and a dutch nut-case who blew hot and cold, who was there to replace them until the Jan window? Its rare that I find myself completely disagreeing with you Bailey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Thats isnt the reason for the complete turn around in our season though is it! If it was that easy Chelsea & Man City would be winning the league every year and we would need Moyes in the first place! We had options, we didnt play to them. how isn't it? we got better players who fitted our system? that's astute buying..chelsea could have bought better and turned it around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Thats isnt the reason for the complete turn around in our season though is it! If it was that easy Chelsea & Man City would be winning the league every year and we would need Moyes in the first place! We had options, we didnt play to them. What exactly were those options? Here's a list of our attacking players pre-January Coleman, Osman, Barkley, Cahill, Bilyaletdinov, Vellios, Stracqualursi, Gueye, McFadden, Drenthe, Anichebe, Saha. Anyone that expects a Champions League place with that mess of kids, misfits and cripples needs a rethink. Yes, we've ended the season well, why? Because we've had Jelavic, Fellaini (playing in an advanced role partly thanks to the acquisition of Gibson), Donovan and Pienaar scoring or setting up pretty much every goal we've scored since they arrived at the club. Why people think we should be qualifying for the Champions League is beyond me. The fact the we managed it in 2005 is a near miracle in itself. Also I can't see how anyone can say that Chelsea (Mata, Drogba, Ramires, Cole, Cech, Sturridge), Arsenal (Walcott, Song, Arteta, Vermaelen, Sagna) and Man Utd (Rooney, Valencia, Nani, Scholes, Young, Vidic) are even comparable to our squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 you just said that them players weren't the reason for the season turnaround yet you just said they are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 We had a sulking striker, a lazy 'winger' and a dutch nut-case who blew hot and cold, who was there to replace them until the Jan window? Its rare that I find myself completely disagreeing with you Bailey! But why was the striker sulking? Who bought the 'lazy winger'? The dutch nut case (I like that description btw!) did more on the pitch than a lot of the rest of the players did at the same time. Moyes should have thought about what he had in the summer and planned ahead, like he has to this year. If players have to go, then they need to go sooner rather than later. That isnt entirely his fault BUT he says he deals with transfers and should take the brunt. how isn't it? we got better players who fitted our system? that's astute buying..chelsea could have bought better and turned it around Im not disagreeing that they were astute purchases but Moyes had the option of changing his system, using different players etc. I sound a lot more negative than I mean to be BUT I dont think I am being harsh in the slightest by saying that we should have done better. Maybe the results might not have gone our way, but out performances, effort and discipline were poor in the first half of the season and we probably picked up more points than we deserved. I just want him to get it right, to realise he has the option to make changes now & not on deadline day. If he has to raise funds then do it. I would love nothing more for Moyes to lead this club to success but until he stops being such a stubborn bastard I dont anticipate us doing anything other than what we have been for the last 3-4 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 But why was the striker sulking? Who bought the 'lazy winger'? The dutch nut case (I like that description btw!) did more on the pitch than a lot of the rest of the players did at the same time. Moyes should have thought about what he had in the summer and planned ahead, like he has to this year. If players have to go, then they need to go sooner rather than later. That isnt entirely his fault BUT he says he deals with transfers and should take the brunt. Taking the brunt I agree, but saying he should go is ludicrous ( not saying youre suggesting he should, just getting back to the topic title ). I think we all know he needs belief in his players and a #2 that says ATTACK!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Pienaar was sold to Tottenham the season before when Bily and Saha were in the squad, and the results improved. Does that mean it was an astute move to sell him then? Is Gibson really that good? Or was it that Moyes has stumbled on a way of playing? Next year, we'll have the same slow start and Moyes scratching his head and then maybe two other new faces will be brought in (or players leave) and we can say how astute he was (again). The fact is, we're going round in circles, and that's because of Moyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 What exactly were those options? Here's a list of our attacking players pre-January Coleman, Osman, Barkley, Cahill, Bilyaletdinov, Vellios, Stracqualursi, Gueye, McFadden, Drenthe, Anichebe, Saha. Anyone that expects a Champions League place with that mess of kids, misfits and cripples needs a rethink. Yes, we've ended the season well, why? Because we've had Jelavic, Fellaini (playing in an advanced role partly thanks to the acquisition of Gibson), Donovan and Pienaar scoring or setting up pretty much every goal we've scored since they arrived at the club. Why people think we should be qualifying for the Champions League is beyond me. The fact the we managed it in 2005 is a near miracle in itself. Also I can't see how anyone can say that Chelsea (Mata, Drogba, Ramires, Cole, Cech, Sturridge), Arsenal (Walcott, Song, Arteta, Vermaelen, Sagna) and Man Utd (Rooney, Valencia, Nani, Scholes, Young, Vidic) are even comparable to our squad. I can see I have kicked up a storm! Firstly we started playing better when Straq came into the team before Jelavic arrived and that is when our performance started to improve so technically it was pre January that the players that we always had kicked their arse into gear. I never said I expected CL at the start of the season, but I did expect us to do a lot better than we did at least in terms of performance. Saha may have sulked but there were several games he looked very sharp but didnt even get a sniff because our ability to pass and make space was non existant. Dont forget Heitnga wasnt even starting at the back for starters. Our work rate was well below the usual until Straq came into the starting line-up and that was when our upturn in form started. 2005 was a miracle, and this year could have been another one looking at the rest of the league. Yes I agree that Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs fans could also be looking at this & thinking what might have been had their respective managers got it right as well (mainly the former two). Im not looking at who plays for them teams, I am looking at how they have performed this season (Arsenal excluded as bar Vermaelen, OX & RVP I wouldnt have any of the others). Dont forget I imagine Fergie could look at our squad and think what if I had Heitinga & Felli and whether they would have won the league this season. These teams and their 'stars' arent to be feared as a lot of them you have mentioned are either over rated or are now on the decline. Im not trying to slag Moyes off as such(I have done that enough this season ) but I am just trying to say that we can improve and if we want go to the next level and if Moyes wants to go to the next level then he has to use what he has at his disposal to get results, whether it is a sulking french man or a dutch nut case as that is what the really top managers do! Just look at Fergie and Wenger and their god awful squads you mentioned above! Ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Taking the brunt I agree, but saying he should go is ludicrous ( not saying youre suggesting he should, just getting back to the topic title ). I think we all know he needs belief in his players and a #2 that says ATTACK!!! I will certainly agree with that. Right back to work! Oops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 We're going round in circles because every time we sign a Fellaini or a Jelavic, we either have to sell a Lescott or an Arteta to feed the banks or we lose a Cahill or a Distin to age. Arsene Wenger's a stubborn, one dimensional bastard too. The difference is, he's a stubborn, one dimensional bastard with the stadium and the budget to attract class players to his side more than once every two seasons. Moyes has his faults, so does every manager. If you want to sack a manager who has faults (as the thread title suggests) then the chairmen may as well get down there in the dugout and do it himself. You need to take the bad with the good, and with Moyes I think the overall package is worthwhile. If he can iron out his flaws, then even better. If we can keep the current squad together, keep Baines, Heitinga, Fellaini, even Jags, and Moyes can save up enough pocket money to bring Pienaar back, there will be absolutely no excuse to start last season like we did this one. All we need is a replacement for Cahill and some actual cover at left back and I see no reason why we can't compete for the top 6 or perhaps even better over the next few years. The only problem is then though that we'll have to be spending money over the next two or three seasons to replace Distin, Neville, Osman, Pienaar, Hibbert due to their age, and any players like Fellaini who may get tempted away from the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not sure anyone has quite said he's the messiah? But hes not the messiah! Hes a very naughty boy! Couldnt resist, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 neither could mogsy an hour and a half ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy! But hes not the messiah! Hes a very naughty boy! Couldnt resist, sorry. Too slow Ste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 neither could mogsy an hour and a half ago Too slow Ste too slow matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 too slow matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Adiom.. Superb posts son. I honestly cant be bothered putting forward my point in these debates anymore. Someone mentioned big sam and I wanted to get in my car and drive into the river mersey. Then someone suggested CL then I wanted to gas myself. I suppose its all opinion but sometimes when I read other Evertonians points of view I am just embarresed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 The same reason that nobody actually knows what kinda of job another manager would do at the club, all these people saying that Moyes is the messiah and noone else can do the job need a serious reality check, as i have said many many times before, HE IS NOT THE ONLY MANAGER IN WORLD FOOTBALL TO WORK WITH LIMITED FINANCES, we have no idea what another manager would do/or would have done. Perhaps you have said many, many times before, that," Moyes is not the only manager in the world to work with limited finances"....but, Moyes has done so for the past few seasons, smallish squad, smallish budget! he has pushed Everton to usually finish above all but the big money teams time after time.He's proven himself at getting the best from a small squad.I'm afraid that's what we are a massive football club with a small squad and a small budget. I don't want to entrust Everton to someone who "just might" do better for a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Adiom.. Superb posts son. I honestly cant be bothered putting forward my point in these debates anymore. Someone mentioned big sam and I wanted to get in my car and drive into the river mersey. Then someone suggested CL then I wanted to gas myself. I suppose its all opinion but sometimes when I read other Evertonians points of view I am just embarresed. I couldn't bring myself to post in this thread last night - was sure peteo was on the wind-up!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I couldn't bring myself to post in this thread last night - was sure peteo was on the wind-up!!! 7th was a minimum expectation regardless of who's above or below us, finishing above Liverpool means nothing when were below Newcastle. Moyes had a strong finish but he really has to go back and look at the 3 games against Liverpool, Chelsea away, Bolton, Norwich, and Stoke at home. You can allow for dips in form and off days but some of these games were worthy of the sack. He needs a break or a new muse to find some inspiration and start taking some risks. Hardly a wind up. 7th was a minimum, regardless of were Liverpool placed. And the last 2 Liverpool games plus Chelsea away are 3 of the lowest moments of being an Evertonian in my lifetime as a fan, it was actually embarrassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Why was 7th a minimum, with a worse squad against better opposition, when that's where we finished last season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Perhaps you have said many, many times before, that," Moyes is not the only manager in the world to work with limited finances"....but, Moyes has done so for the past few seasons, smallish squad, smallish budget! he has pushed Everton to usually finish above all but the big money teams time after time.He's proven himself at getting the best from a small squad.I'm afraid that's what we are a massive football club with a small squad and a small budget. I don't want to entrust Everton to someone who "just might" do better for a season. when have we finished above ALL the big money teams as you like to put it? that just sounds like a dig at the shite to me. In the league i can understand but it's no excuse for not winning a cup imo, dogleish has been sacked for winning a cup, getting to another final all in a year, Moyes has had 10 years to have ago at it now and has fuck all to show for it, whatever way, 10 years in football is along time, most clubs would have sacked him years ago, he has IMO 2 more years to get us back into Europe and looking half decent, then thats 12 years and if we are still hovering around the 7th and 8th position with nothing to show for it then, he can do one as far as im concerned, i don't think he has a winning mentality anyway and i know the off-field stuff does'nt help but nothing can be done about it. For the moment like i said, he probably is the right man, but i do think he needs to change his ways a bit, the fans are not going to sit through another start to the season like the last one. Edited May 16, 2012 by theprisoner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 He said all BUT the big money clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus jones Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Mystic meg said we will sell a star this summer, buy two players, pay off some debt for another year, start slow, be around mid table for Xmas lunch, have a ''spurt on'' in Jan, loose to a lower league team in the F.A cup and finish around 7th or 8th. Now where's my lotto ticket......? Edited May 16, 2012 by jona 32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Why was 7th a minimum, with a worse squad against better opposition, when that's where we finished last season? Only squads better were City, United, and Chelsea. Arsenal have RVP and Arteta, but little extra than that, plus their defence is very week so balance out with us. Spurs and Liverpool have a bigger squads but with less quality. Dont think anyone would have put Newcastle above us, the next 2 team were probs Sunderland and Aston Villa who I'd expected us to finish above. So was you expecting these near relegated league fodder to finish above us? No wonder Moyes has low ambitions if the fans expect us to finsh < 8th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 He said all BUT the big money clubs thanks for that i really do need to add an eye test on my to do list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Only squads better were City, United, and Chelsea. Arsenal have RVP and Arteta, but little extra than that, plus their defence is very week so balance out with us. Spurs and Liverpool have a bigger squads but with less quality. Dont think anyone would have put Newcastle above us, the next 2 team were probs Sunderland and Aston Villa who I'd expected us to finish above. So was you expecting these near relegated league fodder to finish above us? No wonder Moyes has low ambitions if the fans expect us to finsh < 8th. Moyes came out the other day and said 7th was not good enough, so he knows we can and should be doing better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Moyes came out the other day and said 7th was not good enough, so he knows we can and should be doing better. Only recently has he changed the tune, he was saying top half was a good enough. Only after the league had finished he said he wants to set off to win the league, we'll see next year if he sticks to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 He said a top half finish would be a reasonable success, but he also said that we wouldn't particularly be celebrating finishing 7th, because, aside from pride, there's no difference between finishing 7th and 17th, unless 7th gets you into Europe but even then, Europa League isn't really a massive deal these days. At the start of the season, having lost Arteta, and having brought in no new talent, I wouldn't have said 7th is the minimum we can expect. I also wouldn't say our squad is even close to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Liverpool. Van Persie, Arteta, Vermaelen, Van Der Vaart, Bale, Suarez, Gerrard, yeah they're only 2 or 3 players from each squad that are especially better than our players but they do make a big difference. However, with the squad we have for next season, IF we sign Pienaar and IF we keep our other key players and Fergie keeps his greasy bacon hands off Baines, there's no excuse to finish below any of the nothing teams like Villa, Sunderland, Stoke or Fulham. At the same time though I still think we're one or two quality players away from challenging the top 5/6 on a consistent basis. Newcastle managed it this year but an absolutely massive part of that was Ba and Cisse. We were in for Ba until we couldn't pay his wages weren't we? That's a classic example of how Moyes is held back. It also remains to be seen if Newcastle have really made that step up with relatively little investment (still more than us), or whether it was a one-off season where they got a bit of luck and were able to take advantage of the worst Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool sides we've seen for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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